Balance changes

Prionyx

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

Skjaldbjorn

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Prionyx

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Warden is a good class in PvE because you need one warden support(unlike NB and templar) and is single most overpowered class in PvP, it's literally BiS in every PvP aspect possible, unlike dd arcanist in PvE since in some scenarios other classes are better(example: KA - DKs are better here), so yeah, warden is overall the best class right now

xylena_lazarow

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Piercing Cold change is absolutely horrible for PvP DD Warden. Damage please, not more stalemates.

The Arc Flail execute change probably kills it in PvP, not seeing much reason to run it over Whirling Blades now.

boi_anachronism_

Disagree im solely running trifecta and hm progs rn and im not on a single team without a plar dps. TDs actually run 2 in many cases for ansuul execute. Blade or arc and warden healer with a mix of plar, arc, and dk as well as the support dps is the most common setup ive seen.

Skjaldbjorn

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Warden is a good class in PvE because you need one warden support(unlike NB and templar) and is single most overpowered class in PvP, it's literally BiS in every PvP aspect possible, unlike dd arcanist in PvE since in some scenarios other classes are better(example: KA - DKs are better here), so yeah, warden is overall the best class right now

No, forcing teams to bring a Warden healer because it's the only source of their class buff is actually just god awful game design. That's not "good class". Every other class can easily and reliably apply their class buff from any role. Warden is the only one that cannot without a pretty sizeable loss.

fred4

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

I think the vampire Undeath changes, as they stand, may turn out an indirect buff to nightblades in PvP.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Disagree im solely running trifecta and hm progs rn and im not on a single team without a plar dps. TDs actually run 2 in many cases for ansuul execute. Blade or arc and warden healer with a mix of plar, arc, and dk as well as the support dps is the most common setup ive seen.

Yeah, I don't run trifectas, but I've seen a templar significantly outparse everyone in vSS, e.g. the arcanists. It just takes the right content and a guy who knows what they're doing. That templar execute is seriously powerful.

Firstmep

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Piercing Cold change is absolutely horrible for PvP DD Warden. Damage please, not more stalemates.

The Arc Flail execute change probably kills it in PvP, not seeing much reason to run it over Whirling Blades now.

Or you can spend your Crux for solid burst damage instead of only using it on the defensive.

LittlePinkDot

Firstmep wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Piercing Cold change is absolutely horrible for PvP DD Warden. Damage please, not more stalemates.

The Arc Flail execute change probably kills it in PvP, not seeing much reason to run it over Whirling Blades now.

Or you can spend your Crux for solid burst damage instead of only using it on the defensive.

I reserve my crux for impervious runeward.

TechMaybeHic

I think you are a bit off on what is not balanced, but the game is a mess and I think you are just starting to see the beginning of how bad as more scribing skills get used. All about pulling masses from long range into a spot with big AOEs going off. 100-0 NB ganks are going to be easier and tried more with undeath getting nerfed, even though I agree it needed nerfed; but it can be done from range. Coloring of things like Time Stop to where it literally can black out the enemy player screens. Its going to get worse. They are not even touching the obvious ones and there are a ton of little known things starting to see more prevalence and I think Pandora's box has blown it wide open to be very tough to balance

fred4

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Coloring of things like Time Stop to where it literally can black out the enemy player screens.

Why am I not surprised? I already thought skill colouring was a terrible idea. This isn't just an RPG. The way skills look is important information, if not in PvE, then in PvP. It ought to be consistent. ZOS have also pointlessly messed with the sound design of some skills, such as Race Against Time, between some patches. This has driven me nuts. Now we have little dolmens going off in the towns. These sights and sounds mean something. Don't change them, don't repurpose them.

Prionyx

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Disagree im solely running trifecta and hm progs rn and im not on a single team without a plar dps. TDs actually run 2 in many cases for ansuul execute. Blade or arc and warden healer with a mix of plar, arc, and dk as well as the support dps is the most common setup ive seen.

You can disagree with facts but it doesn't make your statement valid, as long as class doesn't give anything useful(both nb and templar don't) or doesn't deal highest possible damage in some encounters this class is pretty much useless

Prionyx

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Warden is a good class in PvE because you need one warden support(unlike NB and templar) and is single most overpowered class in PvP, it's literally BiS in every PvP aspect possible, unlike dd arcanist in PvE since in some scenarios other classes are better(example: KA - DKs are better here), so yeah, warden is overall the best class right now

No, forcing teams to bring a Warden healer because it's the only source of their class buff is actually just god awful game design. That's not "good class". Every other class can easily and reliably apply their class buff from any role. Warden is the only one that cannot without a pretty sizeable loss.

That's awful but it's better than what NB and templars have

Skjaldbjorn

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Warden is a good class in PvE because you need one warden support(unlike NB and templar) and is single most overpowered class in PvP, it's literally BiS in every PvP aspect possible, unlike dd arcanist in PvE since in some scenarios other classes are better(example: KA - DKs are better here), so yeah, warden is overall the best class right now

No, forcing teams to bring a Warden healer because it's the only source of their class buff is actually just god awful game design. That's not "good class". Every other class can easily and reliably apply their class buff from any role. Warden is the only one that cannot without a pretty sizeable loss.

That's awful but it's better than what NB and templars have

Templars are super viable in PVE content atm. Most logs for HM clears and trifecta groups have 1-2 Plar DPS. They're very, very competitive, especially in ST fights where they trounce Arcs. NBs definitely need work.

However, to flip your own bad argument against you, Sorc and NB healers are incredibly strong atm, and most groups run one or the other for the crit buff.

So I guess NB is fine, right?

TechMaybeHic

fred4 wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Coloring of things like Time Stop to where it literally can black out the enemy player screens.

Why am I not surprised? I already thought skill colouring was a terrible idea. This isn't just an RPG. The way skills look is important information, if not in PvE, then in PvP. It ought to be consistent. ZOS have also pointlessly messed with the sound design of some skills, such as Race Against Time, between some patches. This has driven me nuts. Now we have little dolmens going off in the towns. These sights and sounds mean something. Don't change them, don't repurpose them.

Yeah, starting to see zergs spamming Time Stop for it. They are generally as easy to deal with as ever depending on how overwhelmed you get, but if you get some good players mixed in, you literally cannot see whats going on.

Prionyx

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Warden is a good class in PvE because you need one warden support(unlike NB and templar) and is single most overpowered class in PvP, it's literally BiS in every PvP aspect possible, unlike dd arcanist in PvE since in some scenarios other classes are better(example: KA - DKs are better here), so yeah, warden is overall the best class right now

No, forcing teams to bring a Warden healer because it's the only source of their class buff is actually just god awful game design. That's not "good class". Every other class can easily and reliably apply their class buff from any role. Warden is the only one that cannot without a pretty sizeable loss.

That's awful but it's better than what NB and templars have

Templars are super viable in PVE content atm. Most logs for HM clears and trifecta groups have 1-2 Plar DPS. They're very, very competitive, especially in ST fights where they trounce Arcs. NBs definitely need work.

However, to flip your own bad argument against you, Sorc and NB healers are incredibly strong atm, and most groups run one or the other for the crit buff.

So I guess NB is fine, right?

As long as it's not best you can't really call it viable in terms of PvE. Arcanists are just better in AoE damage and DKs are better in ST. NB healers are just useless, some groups still use them simply because they don't know what they are doing. Sorcs are great yeah, where did I say that they aren't?

Prionyx

fred4 wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

I think the vampire Undeath changes, as they stand, may turn out an indirect buff to nightblades in PvP.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Disagree im solely running trifecta and hm progs rn and im not on a single team without a plar dps. TDs actually run 2 in many cases for ansuul execute. Blade or arc and warden healer with a mix of plar, arc, and dk as well as the support dps is the most common setup ive seen.

Yeah, I don't run trifectas, but I've seen a templar significantly outparse everyone in vSS, e.g. the arcanists. It just takes the right content and a guy who knows what they're doing. That templar execute is seriously powerful.

Undeath change is basically a direct buff to sorcs because they don't benefit from it as much as other classes do

Skjaldbjorn

Prionyx wrote: »

As long as it's not best you can't really call it viable in terms of PvE. Arcanists are just better in AoE damage and DKs are better in ST. NB healers are just useless, some groups still use them simply because they don't know what they are doing. Sorcs are great yeah, where did I say that they aren't?

I have no idea who you've raided with, but I've seen off-meta one tricks who dumpster the "meta" classes/setups. Viability is relative. I vividly recall when Necro dropped and everyone wanted raids full of Necros, people pulling super solid numbers on Plar/DK/Sorc were suddenly dumpster juice because they were trash at Cro. I was still playing Warden and absolutely mercing them on the meter.

Prionyx

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

As long as it's not best you can't really call it viable in terms of PvE. Arcanists are just better in AoE damage and DKs are better in ST. NB healers are just useless, some groups still use them simply because they don't know what they are doing. Sorcs are great yeah, where did I say that they aren't?

I have no idea who you've raided with, but I've seen off-meta one tricks who dumpster the "meta" classes/setups. Viability is relative. I vividly recall when Necro dropped and everyone wanted raids full of Necros, people pulling super solid numbers on Plar/DK/Sorc were suddenly dumpster juice because they were trash at Cro. I was still playing Warden and absolutely mercing them on the meter.

What was the point of that statement? If you are outdamaging someone on meta class while playing as low tier DD class like warden or NB it just means that they are just straight up not good at the game

Skjaldbjorn

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

As long as it's not best you can't really call it viable in terms of PvE. Arcanists are just better in AoE damage and DKs are better in ST. NB healers are just useless, some groups still use them simply because they don't know what they are doing. Sorcs are great yeah, where did I say that they aren't?

I have no idea who you've raided with, but I've seen off-meta one tricks who dumpster the "meta" classes/setups. Viability is relative. I vividly recall when Necro dropped and everyone wanted raids full of Necros, people pulling super solid numbers on Plar/DK/Sorc were suddenly dumpster juice because they were trash at Cro. I was still playing Warden and absolutely mercing them on the meter.

What was the point of that statement? If you are outdamaging someone on meta class while playing as low tier DD class like warden or NB it just means that they are just straight up not good at the game

Really? Because I've played with a ton of score pushers over the years. I've played with people who make all the fancy build videos. I've been in raids with plenty of score pushing all-stars. I've been in raids with consistent top-10 logs DPS. And I've beaten them on off-meta classes and meta classes. I've never not been competitive until they chose to dumpster Warden DPS a while ago for PVP reasons.

You act like I signed up for a group finder vet or some garbage. Nah chief. I've been around a long time. I've played with a ton of the best players ESO has ever seen.

Prionyx

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

As long as it's not best you can't really call it viable in terms of PvE. Arcanists are just better in AoE damage and DKs are better in ST. NB healers are just useless, some groups still use them simply because they don't know what they are doing. Sorcs are great yeah, where did I say that they aren't?

I have no idea who you've raided with, but I've seen off-meta one tricks who dumpster the "meta" classes/setups. Viability is relative. I vividly recall when Necro dropped and everyone wanted raids full of Necros, people pulling super solid numbers on Plar/DK/Sorc were suddenly dumpster juice because they were trash at Cro. I was still playing Warden and absolutely mercing them on the meter.

What was the point of that statement? If you are outdamaging someone on meta class while playing as low tier DD class like warden or NB it just means that they are just straight up not good at the game

Really? Because I've played with a ton of score pushers over the years. I've played with people who make all the fancy build videos. I've been in raids with plenty of score pushing all-stars. I've been in raids with consistent top-10 logs DPS. And I've beaten them on off-meta classes and meta classes. I've never not been competitive until they chose to dumpster Warden DPS a while ago for PVP reasons.

You act like I signed up for a group finder vet or some garbage. Nah chief. I've been around a long time. I've played with a ton of the best players ESO has ever seen.

What's the point of that bragging? I've been not just at "top 10 dd logs" but at the very first places and so what? If you outdamage players on better classes than you will outdamage them even more on meta class, you can get every trifecta even as 12 NBs but nobody will do that

Skjaldbjorn

Prionyx wrote: »

What's the point of that bragging? I've been not just at "top 10 dd logs" but at the very first places and so what? If you outdamage players on better classes than you will outdamage them even more on meta class, you can get every trifecta even as 12 NBs but nobody will do that

Only if you're actually good at said class. As I said, when Necros dropped, great DPS turned into trash ones. It happened all the time. Being good and knowledgeable on a class matters.

Pevey

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Warden is a good class in PvE because you need one warden support(unlike NB and templar) and is single most overpowered class in PvP, it's literally BiS in every PvP aspect possible, unlike dd arcanist in PvE since in some scenarios other classes are better(example: KA - DKs are better here), so yeah, warden is overall the best class right now

No, forcing teams to bring a Warden healer because it's the only source of their class buff is actually just god awful game design. That's not "good class". Every other class can easily and reliably apply their class buff from any role. Warden is the only one that cannot without a pretty sizeable loss.

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Arcanist and necro changes are good but how is that warden gets buffed while nb and templar don't... Even sorc gets buffed while being a way better class than nb and templar, let alone that warden is game's best class right now

WUT lmao. Warden is terrible DPS atm. This buff helps them tremendously.

Warden is a good class in PvE because you need one warden support(unlike NB and templar) and is single most overpowered class in PvP, it's literally BiS in every PvP aspect possible, unlike dd arcanist in PvE since in some scenarios other classes are better(example: KA - DKs are better here), so yeah, warden is overall the best class right now

No, forcing teams to bring a Warden healer because it's the only source of their class buff is actually just god awful game design. That's not "good class". Every other class can easily and reliably apply their class buff from any role. Warden is the only one that cannot without a pretty sizeable loss.

That's awful but it's better than what NB and templars have

Templars are super viable in PVE content atm. Most logs for HM clears and trifecta groups have 1-2 Plar DPS. They're very, very competitive, especially in ST fights where they trounce Arcs. NBs definitely need work.

However, to flip your own bad argument against you, Sorc and NB healers are incredibly strong atm, and most groups run one or the other for the crit buff.

So I guess NB is fine, right?

I agree with both of these points.

Warden is the only class whose unique class buff (minor toughness) is tied to healing. It's a great buff, wanted in every group, but must be on a healer. This limits flexibility with group composition and makes warden dps less wanted since they don't bring anything unique.

Sorc and NB face a similar challenge with the hybridization changes and the fact that you now need only minor prophecy OR minor savagery, not both, for optimization. But at least for sorcs and NB, ONE of those is desired in group and can be tank, healer, or dps. So a lot more flexibility.

Also, templar DPS is very strong right now. Not sure what groups you are running with. Templar healer is no longer meta, so many have pivoted, and their execute is often clutch.

boi_anachronism_

Prionyx wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Disagree im solely running trifecta and hm progs rn and im not on a single team without a plar dps. TDs actually run 2 in many cases for ansuul execute. Blade or arc and warden healer with a mix of plar, arc, and dk as well as the support dps is the most common setup ive seen.

You can disagree with facts but it doesn't make your statement valid, as long as class doesn't give anything useful(both nb and templar don't) or doesn't deal highest possible damage in some encounters this class is pretty much useless

Id check eso logs if I was you. Having the best execute in the game makes it worth it to run one by itself. Now idk what content you run but endgame is small, especially on ps. ive run with dozens of teams and this is the norm. You know who team brazil is? Widely considered the best team on ps/na. They run a plar dps. Watch their latest dm run. On top of that no class is going to have the highest damage in every situation. Thats why comps exist to begin with. They supplement eachother. Kinda wild to suggest that. I will say that based on patch notes blades will be completely replaced next patch because cro is getting cowardice but as of now they are still widely run as healers. As you saying stating its a fact does not make it one.

xylena_lazarow

Firstmep wrote: »

Or you can spend your Crux for solid burst damage instead of only using it on the defensive.

Or I could burst with Whirling Blades and not have to worry about cast delays, janky hitboxes, burning all my Crux, etc. This is just a straight nerf that erodes class identity. What I loved about Arc was being a Lovecraftian tentacle monster. Any wizard in Tamriel can pick up a book and shoot lasers. Any melee fighter can spin2win.