Dungeon Speedrunners negative impact and remedies

AnduinTryggva

Just ran Fang Lair on normal with my new toon (tank). Picked up quest (shared by some guy) and then the two other guys just rushed thru it. Me as tank running behind trying to catch up. Not possible to do the quest at all. Of course not learning how to tank it either.

This is SO BAD for the game and the community.

Of course I understand that the majority of people just run this for doing the dailies etc. and want to get it finished. Is ok, as long as it does NOT negatively impact others.

I wonder if there could be a remedy to this for those who want to slowrun it without the need to ask guildies.

Could we have an option to tick where we explicitely ask for a slowrun? Maybe even enforcing a slowrun with blockages imposed after each fight section? Such as all four players have to be present at the gate to open it. For boss fights maybe have some damage taken by boss reduced so he does not die so fast? Maybe there are other ideas. As it is now it is such a nuisance if you want to play and learn a dungeon and others just run thru it.

OsUfi

Curious to know, did you say anything to the speed runners?

I used to ask "fast or slow?" before I began a sprint, and nearly always got the answer "fast." Any time someone said "slow" or announced they had the quest most people would slow down enough to do a quest.

Much though I despise the Pug community in this game, if nobody asks for a slow run the default is fast rnd as most folks just want transmutes.

AnduinTryggva

sure and I don't blame them. Don't get me wrong.

I am just tossing this topic to see if we could do something to make this content more enjoyable for everybody - even if it is for some niche people.

Maybe enforce a poll at the beginning?

Automatically inform other players that the quest was picked up?

Or see above?

Other ideas?

(BTW: even if we have time to "do" the quest with a group it usually is just enough time to just tick the quest section. I am not even talking to really do the story. It is actually pretty waste of developer effort to write all these dialogues... a pitty).

Dragonnord

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I am just tossing this topic to see...

This topic has been tossed one million times already. Just do a search in the forums and you'll spend all day reading similar threads with dozens and dozens of pages.

If you don't want the randomness of a random group, then form your own group with friends or guild mates, or through Discord or anywhere but making it very clear what kind of run you want to do.

If you join a random run you'll get randomness in return. It's simple as that.
 

thorwyn

The remedy is already available. It is called extended group finder, which allows you to specify exactly what you want. Slow, fast, quest, fake roles or real roles, low cp, learning run, farm run and whatever.
Yet, people still hit that queue random button and act surprised when they are bumping into players with different play styles.

N00BxV1

The problem is the Random Normal Dungeon gives the same rewards as a Random Veteran Dungeon. Same XP and Transmute Crystals. So of course people are gonna do Normal instead of Veteran because it's faster and easier.

Put better rewards in the Random Veteran Dungeons and that will get most of those high level rushers out of the Random Normal Dungeons.

Pevey

To me, this is less a problem with speed runners and more a problem with the glitch-prone design of certain dungeon quests. Selene’s Web and Vaults of Madness come to mind. In Selene’s Web, the quest giver takes forever before you can even grab the quest by the entrance. If everyone else kills the first mob before you finish his unskippable dialogue and grab the quest, you cannot trigger completion of the first quest objective, which is killing that first mob.

These need to be fixed to be more robust like in later dungeons. And the unskippable dialogue really needs to go. It should be like any regular dialogue. Please, ZOS, no more unskippable dialogue in dungeons. It just creates this tension for people trying to grab the quest skill point.

JiubLeRepenti

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

sure and I don't blame them. Don't get me wrong.

I am just tossing this topic to see if we could do something to make this content more enjoyable for everybody - even if it is for some niche people.

Maybe enforce a poll at the beginning?

Automatically inform other players that the quest was picked up?

Or see above?

Other ideas?

(BTW: even if we have time to "do" the quest with a group it usually is just enough time to just tick the quest section. I am not even talking to really do the story. It is actually pretty waste of developer effort to write all these dialogues... a pitty).

I've done easily 2.500+ dungeon runs in ESO. I've 20 toons + each of them has done all non-DLC dungeons (for quest-skill points related), and I have aquired 90% of dungeons sets).



Based on my experience, I won't lie to you: going back into dungeons (for instance to farm transmute stones) is really, really painful and devoid of any form of fun. I'm just seeing it as grind at this point. I perfectly know every non-DLC dungeon by heart, and it's almost the case for every DLC/new dungeons.

There are even dungeons that I've done litterally hundreds of times like Arx Corinium (was farming the Medusa flame staff before RNG mech change in 2020-2021).

The only fun I have is when I try to do some of the trifectas I still don't have.

So basically, when I'm in dungeon, there's only one thing I want to do: finish it quick and fast. Because I don't have any fun when I'm doing it. This is as fun as when I do crafting dailies every morning.

Of course if somebody asks to do the quest I'll let him do it (which doesn't mean I won't rush, as rushing won't cancel the quest. As I know the dungeons, I also know how, where and when doing certain mechs in order to get the quest done).

But if somebody flames me in chat because I'm going too fast, I'll always politely ask him to start a vote to kick me, so I can leave and find another dungeon.

I've achieved almost everything that was achievable in PvE content. Now I'm stuck in a pure cost-effective logic. But I also try to stay calm/polite/non-toxic with ppl in chat. You'll never see me flaming ppl who are going too slow for me. But it doesn't mean I'll take my time on my side.

Hasenpfote

I like Donjons.

Orbital78

I love speed runs, sadly most are not. As of late I haven't really even bothered doing dungeons after I got my class mastery scraps. I do start up a guild hard mode prog group soon which will be more fun, I hope. This game has issues with communication I feel. As a console UI user I don't see most chat messages and often when I do they aren't in a language I can even understand anyways. At least with the guild group we will likely have voice chat to communicate to coordinate.

derkaiserliche

Fast runs are always okay but i hate people skipping monster groups without communication and forcing their playstyle on all as a result. If you got a quest its always important to tell the group tho.

Since i only play tanks i will usually just leave the dungeon and go onto my next char. I can understand how frustrating these wannabe speedrunners are to people that waited 10mins+ for their dungeon..

Elyon3019

Best solution is to find friends who will go with you slowly or a guild specialized on slow/story runs. On both servers is at least one guild like that (PC NA - Story time , PC EU - Story mode)

DenverRalphy

N00BxV1 wrote: »

Put better rewards in the Random Veteran Dungeons and that will get most of those high level rushers out of the Random Normal Dungeons.

Be careful of what you ask for. Because there's a solid argument that it'd be better to reduce the Transmute payout of Random Normal than to increase Random Vet. And if Zos were ever inclined to ensure a difference in payout, it'd likely not be the outcome you'd hope for.

Elsonso

N00BxV1 wrote: »

The problem is the Random Normal Dungeon gives the same rewards as a Random Veteran Dungeon. Same XP and Transmute Crystals. So of course people are gonna do Normal instead of Veteran because it's faster and easier.

Put better rewards in the Random Veteran Dungeons and that will get most of those high level rushers out of the Random Normal Dungeons.

The way that I see it, they are rushing as a combination of the reward and the time. Just increasing the Veteran reward does nothing to shorten the time. For the same reason, there is some forum disgruntlement about DLC dungeons that randomly come up, as these tend to take longer than the base game dungeons.

They just need a Random Normal Speed Run that gives the same reward as Random Normal (since difficulty is not a factor in the reward) that just drops the group at the last boss, and where the exit timer starts immediately after the boss dies, or 5 minutes after the start of the dungeon, which ever comes first.

Soarora

Elsonso wrote: »

N00BxV1 wrote: »

The problem is the Random Normal Dungeon gives the same rewards as a Random Veteran Dungeon. Same XP and Transmute Crystals. So of course people are gonna do Normal instead of Veteran because it's faster and easier.

Put better rewards in the Random Veteran Dungeons and that will get most of those high level rushers out of the Random Normal Dungeons.

The way that I see it, they are rushing as a combination of the reward and the time. Just increasing the Veteran reward does nothing to shorten the time. For the same reason, there is some forum disgruntlement about DLC dungeons that randomly come up, as these tend to take longer than the base game dungeons.

They just need a Random Normal Speed Run that gives the same reward as Random Normal (since difficulty is not a factor in the reward) that just drops the group at the last boss, and where the exit timer starts immediately after the boss dies, or 5 minutes after the start of the dungeon, which ever comes first.

Based on how I’ve heard people talk about random normals, I’m not sure normal is actually much faster than vet anymore. Which is… concerning but I guess good that people are sticking to their skill level. I think we need increased non-dungeon transmute rewards. Putting speedrunners in vet I don’t think will work out too well and youd still have people grinding sets in normal.

Edit: or increase the pledge transmutes, I saw something—or perhaps it was my idea, I don’t remember—about adding more transmutes to DLC HM pledges… which right now we get ONE TRANSMUTE FOR…

Quethrosar

i am all for making vets pay more. will still speed run them lol

Rowjoh

Funnily enough I've been in a few random normal pug groups lately that were so painfully slow and tedious that I had to leave in frustration.

Sirona_Starr

Unfortunately, the dungeon finder and people requesting specific groups has a negative impace on people who just waant to run a RANDOM, I repeat RANDOM dungeon. I always ask if anyone is doing quest before I move from the entrance to the dungeon.

Almost 100% of the THEORETICALLY RANDOM dungeons I get into is Bedlam Veil or Scrivener's Hall because the specific Dungeon Group finder keeps sucking me into THEIR want, not mine.

So speed running is a problem yes, and not everyone has the courtesy to ask at the start.

This is also a problem, and I'd like to see NO connection between specific group finder and the I would like a RANDOM dungeon, not YOUR dungeon please.

Also I find the random normal dungeon is heavily skewed towards DLC if I DON'T get pulled into one of the two above.

bruta

slowrun? you are free to make your own group and run at your own pace.
the group has 4 players, what's bad for you may be great for the others, you don't get to dictate how a daily pug should or shouldn't run

tomofhyrule

Sirona_Starr wrote: »

Unfortunately, the dungeon finder and people requesting specific groups has a negative impace on people who just waant to run a RANDOM, I repeat RANDOM dungeon. I always ask if anyone is doing quest before I move from the entrance to the dungeon.

Almost 100% of the THEORETICALLY RANDOM dungeons I get into is Bedlam Veil or Scrivener's Hall because the specific Dungeon Group finder keeps sucking me into THEIR want, not mine.

So speed running is a problem yes, and not everyone has the courtesy to ask at the start.

This is also a problem, and I'd like to see NO connection between specific group finder and the I would like a RANDOM dungeon, not YOUR dungeon please.

The point of the Random Dungeon finder (and its associated rewards) is to fill groups. They are selecting a dungeon to run, and you are getting transmute and XP rewards for helping out.

This is one of the major issues whenever people ask for a base/DLC random queue, since that would make it much harder to fill groups that just need one or two members.

Yes, it's not a perfect system and it is easy to cheese (not having access to DLCs while still getting the same rewards, or queueing as a 4-person group and still getting the reward for helping others), but the intent of the system is that the random groups will fill spots in premades. And before anyone asks, I'd support closing those loopholes (by e.g. making DLC dungeons have higher rewards than basegame or by removing some rewards from full premades).

And, as always, there is a way to select which dungeons you'd like to go into. Of course, that means you're not getting the rewards for filling into any group that needs you since at that point you're not filling for a random group, you're asking for fills for your chosen dungeon.

ClowdyAllDay

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

sure and I don't blame them. Don't get me wrong.

I am just tossing this topic to see if we could do something to make this content more enjoyable for everybody - even if it is for some niche people.

Maybe enforce a poll at the beginning?

Automatically inform other players that the quest was picked up?

Or see above?

Other ideas?

(BTW: even if we have time to "do" the quest with a group it usually is just enough time to just tick the quest section. I am not even talking to really do the story. It is actually pretty waste of developer effort to write all these dialogues... a pitty).

The problem is always the same. If you implement a ver dungeon for experienced dungeoners and a normal dungeon for less experienced then the easy dungeon gets abused by experienced people in a hurry. If you enforce a fast and slow dungeon you get fast runners in the slow dungeon speed running still because they are in a hurry and don't want to wait for enough speed runners to populate the dungeon queue.

There is in fact a group finder that people could use for speed running a dungeon with a like minded group but you know, you wait in queue for enough speed runners to populate the group finder queue that it takes longer for them to play and so they don't use it.

Ad nauseum

Ph1p

N00BxV1 wrote: »

The problem is the Random Normal Dungeon gives the same rewards as a Random Veteran Dungeon. Same XP and Transmute Crystals. So of course people are gonna do Normal instead of Veteran because it's faster and easier.

Put better rewards in the Random Veteran Dungeons and that will get most of those high level rushers out of the Random Normal Dungeons.

Putting better rewards in RVDs might also incentivize players to queue who might not be ready for harder content yet or who are actively looking for a carry. I think all it will achieve is more complaints on the forums about fake supports and/or low DPS and even fewer people doing PUGs.

AnduinTryggva

bruta wrote: »

slowrun? you are free to make your own group and run at your own pace.
the group has 4 players, what's bad for you may be great for the others, you don't get to dictate how a daily pug should or shouldn't run

Are you trolling here?

Provide proof where I said one should enforce one playstyle on another.

I said GIVE us an option to sort players to players with similar playstyle (poll, option box or whatever).

As of now a bulk of speedrunners dictate playstyle to all others.

I ask for an addition to group fill up algorithm or another mechanism that allows people to filter for a specific playstyle.

Desiato

The solution is to avoid pugs. This is pug life. The random nature of a pug means you might get 4 players who all have different ideas about how ESO should be played.

Besides, I don't think fang lair questing is broken by speed running?

An alternative is to form groups with players from your friends list, guilds and/or discord communities. You can also use the group finder to start a group stating the exact parameters you're looking for. There are a lot of options, especially for a tank.

xDeusEJRx

A lot of people are dungeon speedrunning because the necessity to get transmutes. IMO the best "remedy" would be for zos to make transmutes drop a lot more in all sources of the game so people don't feel compelled to dungeon run a lot to get transmutes.

A lot of time people speedrun dungeons because they want to do what they enjoy (which is clearly not dungeons otherwise why speedrun it), but ZOS force them do stuff they don't want to prep for things they do want. Adding more sources would eliminate the crowd of people who are doing tedious work and queuing dungeons they otherwise wouldn't willingly do.

I personally don't enjoy PVE and would probably never queue for a random normal again if I could get more transmutes from PVP'ing outside of waiting every 30 days

reazea

OsUfi wrote: »

Curious to know, did you say anything to the speed runners?

I used to ask "fast or slow?" before I began a sprint, and nearly always got the answer "fast." Any time someone said "slow" or announced they had the quest most people would slow down enough to do a quest.

Much though I despise the Pug community in this game, if nobody asks for a slow run the default is fast rnd as most folks just want transmutes.

If it's a normal level dungeon, expect to speed run it. If you're toon is low level and/or you need the quest, speak up and most of the time other players will cooperate.

Desiato

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

A lot of people are dungeon speedrunning because the necessity to get transmutes.

I think this is ultimately what ZOS wants.

IMO, the reasons they incentivize randoms with transmutes is because they want a large pool of players available for the group finder -- which was an initial challenge upon implementation if I recall correctly -- and some degree of mentorship. Even if that mentorship comes in the form of showing new and inexperienced players what the performance ceiling actually looks like.

As much as some players complain about the experience, I think many of them would have an even worse time with some DLC normals without experienced players to help carry them.

I run a few random normals a day and getting 3 inexperienced players is actually more common for me than getting 3 speed runners. A random normal system that was composed entirely of new and inexperienced players wouldn't result in a good experience for them IMO. It would be a long, gruelling experience with their 10-20k group dps in many cases.

Plus the players most likely to speed run aren't there for transmutes. They're the ones grinding the same dungeon for a particular drop.

xDeusEJRx

Desiato wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

A lot of people are dungeon speedrunning because the necessity to get transmutes.

I think this is ultimately what ZOS wants.

IMO, the reasons they incentivize randoms with transmutes is because they want a large pool of players available for the group finder -- which was an initial challenge upon implementation if I recall correctly -- and some degree of mentorship. Even if that mentorship comes in the form of showing new and inexperienced players what the performance ceiling actually looks like.

As much as some players complain about the experience, I think many of them would have an even worse time with some DLC normals without experienced players to help carry them.

I run a few random normals a day and a getting 3 inexperienced players is actually more common for me than getting 3 speed runners. A random normal system that was composed entirely of new and inexperienced players wouldn't result in a good experience for them IMO. It would be a long, gruelling experience with their 10-20k group dps in many cases.

Plus the players most likely to speed run aren't there for transmutes. They're the ones grinding the same dungeon for a particular drop.

Yeah I am aware of this, ultimately all they want is to artificially inflate play time and engagement so players do "chores' they don't want to do before they can get back to having fun.
That's why they spread out game drops across the entirety of the game, like how there are mythic leads only available in trials.

I wouldn't be surprised if they added mythic leads to Tales of Tribute in the future

Icy_Waffles

This argument get's debated every couple months.

If you queue for a random, you have the freedom to leave if the experience is not to your liking. If you want a slower experience, or want to quest/ learn then that's best done through the use of a guild, and grouping with like-minded players.

For the majority, running a "random normal" is just to grind transmutes/ xp so generally speaking, the quicker, the better.

There's really nothing ZOS should do- this is all how the game is designed with the tools necessary

thorwyn

I said GIVE us an option to sort players to players with similar playstyle (poll, option box or whatever).

You can stop asking.
IT IS ALREADY IN THE GAME!

RicAlmighty

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