Why are people struggling to with the mirror mechanic in vLC?

SerafinaWaterstar

Which mirror mechanic?!

The portal one (see which pad by checking in mirror) or the switch one on ‘ball’ boss?!

El_Borracho

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Which mirror mechanic?!

The portal one (see which pad by checking in mirror) or the switch one on ‘ball’ boss?!

The mirrors around the room in the Orphic Shattered Shard boss fight, but yeah, I guess there is a mirror in the Ryelaz and Zilyesset fight, too.

Sync01

^ This.

I do want to add though that I experience a much higher rate of players just leaving/disbanding the group and not explaining mechs now, compared to before the group finder.

Soarora

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Second: Why should people join a guild just to satisfy YOUR requirements? Why don't YOU join a guild with regular trial groups where people meet YOUR requirements? Sounds to me like you want to be carried in a sense too if you allow me that (friendly meant) pun. You expect other people to be up to your expectation so you don't have to take care for players that have not reached your level of expertise.

Training guilds are supposedly a safer experience than PuGs, as people who are toxic to new players are—in theory—removed from the guild. It’s also easier to learn when someone knowledgable explains mechanics and how to improve as well as many trials benefit or require verbal communications of some sort.

I do not PuG trials, so anything about me here is moot. This is just a public forum where OP asked a question and I answered it. I do PuG dungeons and absolutely I help people through mechanics there the best I can if it seems they want to learn. But dealing with up to 3 people who don’t know what they’re doing is majorly different than dealing with up to 11, especially because its easier to kill the entire group in trials.

Necrotech_Master

Soarora wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Second: Why should people join a guild just to satisfy YOUR requirements? Why don't YOU join a guild with regular trial groups where people meet YOUR requirements? Sounds to me like you want to be carried in a sense too if you allow me that (friendly meant) pun. You expect other people to be up to your expectation so you don't have to take care for players that have not reached your level of expertise.

Training guilds are supposedly a safer experience than PuGs, as people who are toxic to new players are—in theory—removed from the guild. It’s also easier to learn when someone knowledgable explains mechanics and how to improve as well as many trials benefit or require verbal communications of some sort.

I do not PuG trials, so anything about me here is moot. This is just a public forum where OP asked a question and I answered it. I do PuG dungeons and absolutely I help people through mechanics there the best I can if it seems they want to learn. But dealing with up to 3 people who don’t know what they’re doing is majorly different than dealing with up to 11, especially because its easier to kill the entire group in trials.

i would second this

ive joined pug trials on occasion, but only, and will only ever, do normal for those, as the mechanics are more forgiving for a low knowledge/low coordination group

if your doing trials on vet, while its not absolutely required, having voice coms does make a lot of things significantly easier

Desiato

Vet group finder pugs definitely aren't for training. Only those who have an understanding of mechanics should join one and that's almost always the expectation of the group leader.

Voice comms can be optional as long as everyone knows what they're doing. It's actually better sometimes because some voice comms are so chaotic, they make it more difficult to focus.

jle30303

There are also: People who don't know the mechanics YET, want to learn them, but the person in charge of the group is no good at explaining. Usually because they use too much jargon, too many acronyms, they start explaining things at the third or fourth stage of understanding rather than the first. (And in some cases their spelling and grammar is terrible.)

Like. When you are explaining things, please use FULL SENTENCES and SIMPLE CONCEPTS.

I have only ever done LC once, and I still don't understand the mirror mechanic because I spent most of it dead after several group wipes because *nobody* could understand the person explaining it. I still don't understand what things in the room are portals, what things are mirrors, and the whole *concept* of dark or light that people mention above wasn't explained or even used in the explanation. I went to stand on something that somebody had told me was a portal, it didn't portal me anywhere, I couldn't see anything else that would allow me to potentially travel out of the room that was filling with red, then the room exploded and nine of the group died.

Necrotech_Master

jle30303 wrote: »

There are also: People who don't know the mechanics YET, want to learn them, but the person in charge of the group is no good at explaining. Usually because they use too much jargon, too many acronyms, they start explaining things at the third or fourth stage of understanding rather than the first. (And in some cases their spelling and grammar is terrible.)

Like. When you are explaining things, please use FULL SENTENCES and SIMPLE CONCEPTS.

I have only ever done LC once, and I still don't understand the mirror mechanic because I spent most of it dead after several group wipes because *nobody* could understand the person explaining it. I still don't understand what things in the room are portals, what things are mirrors, and the whole *concept* of dark or light that people mention above wasn't explained or even used in the explanation. I went to stand on something that somebody had told me was a portal, it didn't portal me anywhere, I couldn't see anything else that would allow me to potentially travel out of the room that was filling with red, then the room exploded and nine of the group died.

to give you the simple versions:

the first boss, half of the group splits to go to the other side

each side has 3 pads, when the room is about to explode, you have to look through the wall-mirror to see which pad has the yellow ring around it, that one is the "safe" pad that switches the groups, this allows you to survive the room explode mechanic

there are other mechanics in this fight, involving the adds (if you have either a light, or dark (depending on side) aura on you, you need to take that to the small adds to make them vulnerable, otherwise they are invulnerable), but i dont think this is very present on normal


for the orphic shattered shard boss (3rd boss) there are mirrors around the edge of the room

these mirrors can be light, or dark (on normal there is only ever 4 of them: NE, NW, SE, SW)

when the fight starts, the mirrors have to be flipped (synergy when close to the mirror) because the adds are invulnerable (it starts with light adds, which need dark mirrors to make vulnerable), then dark adds come out, and mirrors have to be flipped again, then another wave of adds, which is half dark and half light enemies, the dark ones should be killed first as mirrors are already light, then flip mirrors to kill the rest

the boss will need the mirrors flipped again back to light after you finish with the light adds, at hp thresholds the boss charges to the center of the room and you see tendrils come from the boss to the mirrors, you have to flip the mirrors in this phase to prevent the room wide explode that wipes the group

basically rinse and repeat that until the fight is over (on vet, additional mirrors come up in the other 4 cardinal directions: N, S, E, W over the course of the fight, and the dot from activating the mirrors stacks and does more dmg)

Desiato

jle30303 wrote: »

There are also: People who don't know the mechanics YET, want to learn them, but the person in charge of the group is no good at explaining. Usually because they use too much jargon, too many acronyms, they start explaining things at the third or fourth stage of understanding rather than the first. (And in some cases their spelling and grammar is terrible.)

Unless the gf pug is described as a training group, no one should expect to be trained. One shouldn't join a vet gf pug unless they already know what they're doing.

AnduinTryggva

Desiato wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

There are also: People who don't know the mechanics YET, want to learn them, but the person in charge of the group is no good at explaining. Usually because they use too much jargon, too many acronyms, they start explaining things at the third or fourth stage of understanding rather than the first. (And in some cases their spelling and grammar is terrible.)

Unless the gf pug is described as a training group, no one should expect to be trained. One shouldn't join a vet gf pug unless they already know what they're doing.

Says who?

The gf is for EVERYBODY to use. If you really want to exclude certain players you have to write it explicitely. Expect however to wait maybe longer for your ideal group to assemble than trying to explain one or two freshers what to do.

I cannot quite grasp that desire for limit this strictly to experienced players. How do you believe the experienced playerbase is meant to grow?

In fact to limit everything to experienced guys only will SHRINK the number of available players because at one point experienced players will simply turn away. And if ppl without experience are prevented from acquiring experience what do you think will happen?

Desiato

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Says who?

The gf is for EVERYBODY to use. If you really want to exclude certain players you have to write it explicitely. Expect however to wait maybe longer for your ideal group to assemble than trying to explain one or two freshers what to do.

I cannot quite grasp that desire for limit this strictly to experienced players. How do you believe the experienced playerbase is meant to grow?

In fact to limit everything to experienced guys only will SHRINK the number of available players because at one point experienced players will simply turn away. And if ppl without experience are prevented from acquiring experience what do you think will happen?

I can assure you it is the general expectation of raid leads that players already understand vet mechanics before joining a vet trial group, even if they may forget to put it in the description.

Away from that, it is a basic courtesy. Vet trial content is designed to have a learning curve. They are intended for organized groups. They are not intended for players to jump into haphazardly, learning on the fly. Normal trials are for that.

A single player who doesn't understand an encounter may prevent the entire group from progressing. Sometimes it takes players multiple training runs before they become comfortable enough with mechanics to progress past an encounter. It is discourteous to join one without a solid understanding as one may be wasting the time of 11 other people.

The appropriate way to learn vet trials is in training guilds and discord communities. Even then, one should do their homework before joining the trial by reading or watching a guide.

sarahthes

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

There are also: People who don't know the mechanics YET, want to learn them, but the person in charge of the group is no good at explaining. Usually because they use too much jargon, too many acronyms, they start explaining things at the third or fourth stage of understanding rather than the first. (And in some cases their spelling and grammar is terrible.)

Unless the gf pug is described as a training group, no one should expect to be trained. One shouldn't join a vet gf pug unless they already know what they're doing.

Says who?

The gf is for EVERYBODY to use. If you really want to exclude certain players you have to write it explicitely. Expect however to wait maybe longer for your ideal group to assemble than trying to explain one or two freshers what to do.

I cannot quite grasp that desire for limit this strictly to experienced players. How do you believe the experienced playerbase is meant to grow?

In fact to limit everything to experienced guys only will SHRINK the number of available players because at one point experienced players will simply turn away. And if ppl without experience are prevented from acquiring experience what do you think will happen?

There's an "Educational" option in the group finder listing creator. If you haven't run the trial before, keep an eye out for those. I post them occasionally, if a guild training run needs a few more people, and I know I'm not alone in that.

RaikaNA

And another vLC group finder run that I wasn't able to complete LOL.

Can anyone from the NA server can hook me up with a reliable discord that still does vLC gear farming runs?

CrashTest

RaikaNA wrote: »

And another vLC group finder run that I wasn't able to complete LOL.

Can anyone from the NA server can hook me up with a reliable discord that still does vLC gear farming runs?

For the Clear
https://discord.gg/for-the-clear

katanagirl1

Desiato wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

There are also: People who don't know the mechanics YET, want to learn them, but the person in charge of the group is no good at explaining. Usually because they use too much jargon, too many acronyms, they start explaining things at the third or fourth stage of understanding rather than the first. (And in some cases their spelling and grammar is terrible.)

Unless the gf pug is described as a training group, no one should expect to be trained. One shouldn't join a vet gf pug unless they already know what they're doing.

I strongly agree with this. The time involved for a normal run versus a training run could be vastly different. It might be 2+ hours versus 1 hour and needs to be planned. Many players might not have the time to stay long enough to explain mechanics and take several attempts to get the clear. If you are struggling to keep up, you are holding 11 other people back. (Not you personally, the hypothetical “you”).

I don’t know about the newest trial, I haven’t had a chance to run it, but older trials can be searched online to find written walkthroughs describing mechanics or even videos that you can watch beforehand to be more prepared. Of course finding a trial designed to train or a guild group would be ideal.

RaikaNA

Desiato wrote: »

jle30303 wrote: »

There are also: People who don't know the mechanics YET, want to learn them, but the person in charge of the group is no good at explaining. Usually because they use too much jargon, too many acronyms, they start explaining things at the third or fourth stage of understanding rather than the first. (And in some cases their spelling and grammar is terrible.)

Unless the gf pug is described as a training group, no one should expect to be trained. One shouldn't join a vet gf pug unless they already know what they're doing.

I completely agree with you. I don't know how many times I join a group finder vLC run that requires "knowing the mechanics" and people failing to meet the requirements... as it clearly shows during the mirror boss. That is the ultimate test to see if people actually know what they're doing, or sneaking in for a clear and carry.