Why are people struggling to with the mirror mechanic in vLC?

RaikaNA · July 1

It seems like I'm joining more and more groups in the group finder that seems to be unable to complete the mirror boss in vLC.

Why are people struggling with this basic mechanic?

Desiato · July 1

I would expect group finder pugs to struggle, although miraculously I participated in one that did it first try. the leader required a clear though.

TheDarkRuler · July 1

Because one player screwing up can mess up the whole group.
The recent raids always have those "once fails, group fails" kind of thing.
However I had my share of good random groups though ... I had defined the group search settings to "speed run" and i only accept those who can link the achievement. Or I am doing it with guild entirely.

RaikaNA · July 1

Desiato wrote: »

I would expect group finder pugs to struggle, although miraculously I participated in one that did it first try. the leader required a clear though.

The group finder should scan peoples achievements for clear in order for them to be accepted into the group.

Treeshka · July 1

RaikaNA wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I would expect group finder pugs to struggle, although miraculously I participated in one that did it first try. the leader required a clear though.

The group finder should scan peoples achievements for clear in order for them to be accepted into the group.

We should be able to view the gear of applicants as well, but even the idea of mentioning this will create heat within the game.

CrashTest · July 1

It can be confusing especially for first timers or when someone doesn't explain it properly, and pugs aren't exactly known for quality.

Orbital78 · July 1

RaikaNA wrote: »

It seems like I'm joining more and more groups in the group finder that seems to be unable to complete the mirror boss in vLC.

Why are people struggling with this basic mechanic?

lack of addons, lack of communication, lack of self healing or supports not knowing when to barrier. I have only used the group finder a hand full of times and it was always with a lead (tank) that was pretty competent and solid on leading the thing. Thankfully I can do it 2-3+ times a week with friends which is ideal. We haven't ventured into hard modes yet, but the mirror boss definitely seems to be the hardest "chokepoint" for less coordinated groups.

Rotating NE, NW, SE, SW with other dps in N,W,E,S helps a lot. My arcanist has issues keeping up with one more, let alone two or more which is basically a death. My sorc can handle two much easier with their strong heals and shields, well timed barriers are big but that requires people grouping up enough to benefit at the right times.

Orbital78 · July 1

Treeshka wrote: »

We should be able to view the gear of applicants as well, but even the idea of mentioning this will create heat within the game.

Gear gives a better idea, but I have seen golded out decent setup players (unsure of cp) but they should have done more than what the healers were doing for dps. Unsure if they were trolling or didn't repair gear at all, but whenever I see them use GF I let the raid lead know.

You would need a parse, and even that can be faked and doesn't mean they can survive and dps on non-stationary targets.

ApoAlaia · July 1

Tunnel vision.

Specially the 15% mirror activation during execute.

People just get into the 'execute groove' then can't react fast enough, panic and can't find their mirror/run into tornadoes or spinning ruinarchs/run through ground AoEs with reckless abandon etc.

ShadowPaladin · July 1

Treeshka wrote: »

We should be able to view the gear of applicants as well, but even the idea of mentioning this will create heat within the game.

Equipment and the amount of CPs DO NOT show how good or bad players are!!!

I don't know if you experienced this for yourself or not, but I did so for quite a few times.

Last time - about two weeks ago - I had a CP 300 tank, a 1200+ CP healer and dd in a random vet dungeon run. The tank mastered the dungeon with flying colors, while the healer and dd where extremly struggling. It even came to the point where I - as a DD magi-sorc (2200 cp and with all skills need for being a DD and or a healer) - needed to switch to semi heal/dd setup

.

The problem with only focusing on gear and or CP is that players can acquire both relative easily. Just look at all those people doing dolmens in Alik'r or the *farm/equipment* runs being sold/asked for. That goes btw. too for some achievements!

AnduinTryggva · July 1

To be honest it IS confusing on some occasions.

I think I have a pretty good idea what to do after having watched guides and having done several runs.

I like to point out that even after having watched a guide thinking to have understood it it was something different implementing this during a run.

And some parts of the mirror mecha is a bit confusing.

Sometimes all mirrors are in the right color except one but it looks like that one mirror is supposed to not be in the same color as the other ones.

This has not been explained in the guides that I have watched.

So is it something I missed in the understanding of the mecha? Is it a bug? How can I tell one from the other? I dunno.

Wolfshade · July 1

Honestly, I can't agree with that.

After release I saw many groups in nLC to learn the mechanics. The last few days I played a lot of vLC and collected the perfect gear. Almost finished. This almost exclusively via GF. And no group had big problems with the mirrors there. Not even with CP 700 players. Maybe one or two players, but this usually didn't lead to the group wiping there (in groups i played).

But I can confirm that many players didn't understand that the portals can only be seen in the mirrors. But this has nothing to do with cp or gear. Thats just an indicator.

sarahthes · July 1

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

To be honest it IS confusing on some occasions.

I think I have a pretty good idea what to do after having watched guides and having done several runs.

I like to point out that even after having watched a guide thinking to have understood it it was something different implementing this during a run.

And some parts of the mirror mecha is a bit confusing.

Sometimes all mirrors are in the right color except one but it looks like that one mirror is supposed to not be in the same color as the other ones.

This has not been explained in the guides that I have watched.

So is it something I missed in the understanding of the mecha? Is it a bug? How can I tell one from the other? I dunno.

Trash wave 1 - dark mirrors (they start light) - adds have a light shield so dark breaks it

Trash wave 2 - light mirrors because adds have dark shields

Trash wave 3 - split adds. Kill the ones that can be killed then swap and kill the other 3.

Boss 100% - swap mirrors.

Boss 90% - swap mirrors. E and W spawn in after room explodes and also need to be swapped.

Boss 60% - swap mirrors. N and S spawning after room exploded and also need to be swapped.

Boss 40% - mirrors. Boss can be damaged after room explodes.

Boss 25% - opposite colour adds spawn in. Most groups have OT kite then and they get ignored.

Boss 15% - mirrors then execute.

Note: if someone accidentally swaps a mirror after boss becomes vulnerable again it doesn't matter. Won't be an issue. But only if he's already vulnerable.

festegios · July 1

Same reason DD’s can’t manage vdsr boss 1 mechs.

festegios · July 1

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

To be honest it IS confusing on some occasions.

This has not been explained in the guides that I have watched.

So is it something I missed in the understanding of the mecha? Is it a bug? How can I tell one from the other? I dunno.

Just go by the colour of the big windows. Are they light? Then the room is light, are they dark.

Then to switch the mirrors need to be opposite color of the windows

It’s easier to have 1 person that calls it out; normally the tank.

“Make the room dark”
“Make the room light”

Anymore thinking than that just confuses what’s actually a basic mechanic.

sarahthes · July 1

festegios wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

To be honest it IS confusing on some occasions.

This has not been explained in the guides that I have watched.

So is it something I missed in the understanding of the mecha? Is it a bug? How can I tell one from the other? I dunno.

Just go by the colour of the big windows. Are they light? Then the room is light, are they dark.

Then to switch the mirrors need to be opposite color of the windows

It’s easier to have 1 person that calls it out; normally the tank.

“Make the room dark”
“Make the room light”

Anymore thinking than that just confuses what’s actually a basic mechanic.

In difficulties higher than normal, additional mirrors spawn in throughout the fight.

RaikaNA · July 1

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

We should be able to view the gear of applicants as well, but even the idea of mentioning this will create heat within the game.

Equipment and the amount of CPs DO NOT show how good or bad players are!!!

I don't know if you experienced this for yourself or not, but I did so for quite a few times.

Last time - about two weeks ago - I had a CP 300 tank, a 1200+ CP healer and dd in a random vet dungeon run. The tank mastered the dungeon with flying colors, while the healer and dd where extremly struggling. It even came to the point where I - as a DD magi-sorc (2200 cp and with all skills need for being a DD and or a healer) - needed to switch to semi heal/dd setup .

The problem with only focusing on gear and or CP is that players can acquire both relative easily. Just look at all those people doing dolmens in Alik'r or the *farm/equipment* runs being sold/asked for. That goes btw. too for some achievements!

I respectfully disagree with what is in bold letters. This game has a meta system. If you're not using BIS gear.. you're not gonna be very sucessful, and your certainly not going to be invited to any core group anytime soon. In this game gear does matter.. it matters a lot.... both in PvP and PvE.

Every time I read a log.. almost everyone with high dps is using the same exact setup..

ZOS knows how to make money with their new chapters and expansions because they get to dictate what becomes the next new bis for the next year or two.. for an example vLC... Most PvE tanks are now using Lucent Echos.

Sync01 · July 1

RaikaNA wrote: »

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

We should be able to view the gear of applicants as well, but even the idea of mentioning this will create heat within the game.

Equipment and the amount of CPs DO NOT show how good or bad players are!!!

I don't know if you experienced this for yourself or not, but I did so for quite a few times.

Last time - about two weeks ago - I had a CP 300 tank, a 1200+ CP healer and dd in a random vet dungeon run. The tank mastered the dungeon with flying colors, while the healer and dd where extremly struggling. It even came to the point where I - as a DD magi-sorc (2200 cp and with all skills need for being a DD and or a healer) - needed to switch to semi heal/dd setup .

The problem with only focusing on gear and or CP is that players can acquire both relative easily. Just look at all those people doing dolmens in Alik'r or the *farm/equipment* runs being sold/asked for. That goes btw. too for some achievements!

I respectfully disagree with what is in bold letters. This game has a meta system. If you're not using BIS gear.. you're not gonna be very sucessful, and your certainly not going to be invited to any core group anytime soon. In this game gear does matter.. it matters a lot.... both in PvP and PvE.

Every time I read a log.. almost everyone with high dps is using the same exact setup..

ZOS knows how to make money with their new chapters and expansions because they get to dictate what becomes the next new bis for the next year or two.. for an example vLC... Most PvE tanks are now using Lucent Echos.

I assume they meant that having certain gear does not guarantee that the person is going to be doing good dps.
High CP I def see as completely useless when it comes to determining if someone is a good player or not, especially since you don't get much xp from trials. Sure a cp 2500 is generally going to be better than a cp 250, but I have seen things.

moderatelyfatman · July 2

RaikaNA wrote: »

It seems like I'm joining more and more groups in the group finder that seems to be unable to complete the mirror boss in vLC.

Why are people struggling with this basic mechanic?

I think it's due to the game being more solo player based. More people get their training from youtube these days than from progs and fellow guildies.

Add to that the high dps and survivability of the Arcanist, and newer players are more used to ignoring the mechs and burning through their bosses.

Soarora · July 2

PuGs tend to lack mechanic skills or don’t want to do mechanics and just want to be carried. You can see this even in overland with newer worldbosses how people will continue attacking invulnerable enemies and generally not do mechanics.

El_Borracho · July 2

vLC requires comms. While it is probably possible for an organized raid team to do it without comms, the vast majority of players need the communication organized by the raid leader. Assign DPS to a mirror and that is their mirror. And later for the run, get an assigned order of DPS carrying the shard. If someone dies, the assigned backup takes over. Its just like organizing portal teams for vCR. Its really that simple but you need comms to do it.

Necrotech_Master · July 2

El_Borracho wrote: »

vLC requires comms. While it is probably possible for an organized raid team to do it without comms, the vast majority of players need the communication organized by the raid leader. Assign DPS to a mirror and that is their mirror. And later for the run, get an assigned order of DPS carrying the shard. If someone dies, the assigned backup takes over. Its just like organizing portal teams for vCR. Its really that simple but you need comms to do it.

in the trial groups i am in we dont organize who is picking up the knot, as long as someone is holding the knot instead of leaving it down

definitely need to assign mirrors though

AnduinTryggva · July 2

Soarora wrote: »

PuGs tend to lack mechanic skills or don’t want to do mechanics and just want to be carried. You can see this even in overland with newer worldbosses how people will continue attacking invulnerable enemies and generally not do mechanics.

Sorry but are you sure that these are not simply some assumptions one your side?

The information coming back at you can be overwhelming and people not noticing that they don't do damage as they are busy with other things than watching the boss health bar.

Also I guess quite a few people run ESO in vanilla and not with additional GUI addons that give you indications of health percentage. It might thus be much less easy for people to see if they cause damage or not.

Desiato · July 2

RaikaNA wrote: »

I respectfully disagree with what is in bold letters. This game has a meta system. If you're not using BIS gear.. you're not gonna be very sucessful, and your certainly not going to be invited to any core group anytime soon. In this game gear does matter.. it matters a lot.... both in PvP and PvE.

Gear does matter, but in fights like orphic, knowing the mechanics, how to avoid AEs and kites is more important than damage output.

In the successful vlc pug I was in, the dps was terrible, but everyone knew the mechanics and how to play so it was fine.

sarahthes · July 2

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

PuGs tend to lack mechanic skills or don’t want to do mechanics and just want to be carried. You can see this even in overland with newer worldbosses how people will continue attacking invulnerable enemies and generally not do mechanics.

Sorry but are you sure that these are not simply some assumptions one your side?

The information coming back at you can be overwhelming and people not noticing that they don't do damage as they are busy with other things than watching the boss health bar.

Also I guess quite a few people run ESO in vanilla and not with additional GUI addons that give you indications of health percentage. It might thus be much less easy for people to see if they cause damage or not.

The enemy health bar turns gold in the base game UI when the enemy is invulnerable...

El_Borracho · July 2

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

vLC requires comms. While it is probably possible for an organized raid team to do it without comms, the vast majority of players need the communication organized by the raid leader. Assign DPS to a mirror and that is their mirror. And later for the run, get an assigned order of DPS carrying the shard. If someone dies, the assigned backup takes over. Its just like organizing portal teams for vCR. Its really that simple but you need comms to do it.

in the trial groups i am in we dont organize who is picking up the knot, as long as someone is holding the knot instead of leaving it down

definitely need to assign mirrors though

I've done both. I found running an order on the knot was easier because of the cooldown as well as having someone ready to pick it up, especially with the glitch (mechanic?) which will cause multiple "knots" to appear if the knotholder dies holding it, which can happen. With an order, you already know who had it so you don't have to figure that part out.

Necrotech_Master · July 2

El_Borracho wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

vLC requires comms. While it is probably possible for an organized raid team to do it without comms, the vast majority of players need the communication organized by the raid leader. Assign DPS to a mirror and that is their mirror. And later for the run, get an assigned order of DPS carrying the shard. If someone dies, the assigned backup takes over. Its just like organizing portal teams for vCR. Its really that simple but you need comms to do it.

in the trial groups i am in we dont organize who is picking up the knot, as long as someone is holding the knot instead of leaving it down

definitely need to assign mirrors though

I've done both. I found running an order on the knot was easier because of the cooldown as well as having someone ready to pick it up, especially with the glitch (mechanic?) which will cause multiple "knots" to appear if the knotholder dies holding it, which can happen. With an order, you already know who had it so you don't have to figure that part out.

on PC i havent seen a bug yet with multiple knots (though its possible it could have been fixed in the incremental)

our group did have the most unusual encounter with the knot in one of our runs last weekend, basically i died at the exact moment i picked up the knot, so apparently i was still holding the knot when i was rezzed though it did not show a graphic (ball or dome), and it dropped normally after the timer expired

CrashTest · July 2

The biggest thing I've noticed with first timers is they don't flip the new mirrors at 90% and 60%.

Another thing, at least on PCNA, people use different add-ons for mirror directions and each person might be following their own personal directions which conflict with other DPS, or they could just be running to the nearest mirror.

Rkindaleft · July 3

My question is why are you joining in group finder pugs and expecting them to go well.

Soarora · July 3

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

PuGs tend to lack mechanic skills or don’t want to do mechanics and just want to be carried. You can see this even in overland with newer worldbosses how people will continue attacking invulnerable enemies and generally not do mechanics.

Sorry but are you sure that these are not simply some assumptions one your side?

The information coming back at you can be overwhelming and people not noticing that they don't do damage as they are busy with other things than watching the boss health bar.

Also I guess quite a few people run ESO in vanilla and not with additional GUI addons that give you indications of health percentage. It might thus be much less easy for people to see if they cause damage or not.

Not all PuGs are lacking mechanically or wanting to be carried, but I do believe many are. To be clear by "wanting to be carried" I mean "I don't know how to do the mechanics so I'm too scared to try" which leads to like... having 0 people want to do portal in Cloudrest, for instance. Not knowing how to deal with the information coming in is lacking in mechanic skill. As sarahthes said, the healthbar over the boss' head shows that the boss is invulnerable. I think there's even a tutorial pop-up about that.

So my two points together in this instance would be "I don't want to do mirrors because I'm afraid of doing mechanics and also I don't have the skill to do damage while moving out of AoEs while checking the mirrors to see if they need flipped". It doesn't mean the PuGs in question are bad people or will forever be bad at the fight, but as far as I know there's basically two groups of people who PuG: people who should be in a training guild and won't join one, and people who are high-skill and just trying to farm.

AnduinTryggva · July 3

Soarora wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

PuGs tend to lack mechanic skills or don’t want to do mechanics and just want to be carried. You can see this even in overland with newer worldbosses how people will continue attacking invulnerable enemies and generally not do mechanics.

Sorry but are you sure that these are not simply some assumptions one your side?

The information coming back at you can be overwhelming and people not noticing that they don't do damage as they are busy with other things than watching the boss health bar.

Also I guess quite a few people run ESO in vanilla and not with additional GUI addons that give you indications of health percentage. It might thus be much less easy for people to see if they cause damage or not.

Not all PuGs are lacking mechanically or wanting to be carried, but I do believe many are. To be clear by "wanting to be carried" I mean "I don't know how to do the mechanics so I'm too scared to try" which leads to like... having 0 people want to do portal in Cloudrest, for instance. Not knowing how to deal with the information coming in is lacking in mechanic skill. As sarahthes said, the healthbar over the boss' head shows that the boss is invulnerable. I think there's even a tutorial pop-up about that.

So my two points together in this instance would be "I don't want to do mirrors because I'm afraid of doing mechanics and also I don't have the skill to do damage while moving out of AoEs while checking the mirrors to see if they need flipped". It doesn't mean the PuGs in question are bad people or will forever be bad at the fight, but as far as I know there's basically two groups of people who PuG: people who should be in a training guild and won't join one, and people who are high-skill and just trying to farm.

There are certainly some individuals out there that have this mindset as you say. That is people who simply are lazy and hoping others to do the job for them. This is the meaning when you call people "carried". People who genuinly don't want to provide any effort. It does not mean people are carried because they simply don't know how to be really usefull.

I however don't believe that they are the majority. Not even the majority of the casual players. I genuinly believe that the majority who are carried don't want to be carried but simply don't fully understand what to do to not being carried.

I on my side think it is ok for pugs that not all people have the same level of knowledge and expertise which is nothing to be condescent towards them.

I understand that high skill players just want the trial to be done smoothly. Who wouldn't. But the gf is made for all players and apart from CP and role requirements that you can put up does not filter out people that don't bring in the expertise for a trial to run smoothly. Everyone should know this when using the gf. And to be honest I think it is a good thing that way. Show me ONE trial group that succeed smoothly in veteran mode of a completely new trial specifically dlc trial. At one point we ALL are in the situation to learn how to play a given trial. But to learn people need to be given the opportunity to play it and to fail and repeat.

Now you will say: they should join a guild and a learning trial group there. First: Not everybody has so much time or they have family constraints that prevents them from joining a regular learning trial group. Me for instance had to make an agreement with family that I have one evening for trial runs because guild trial groups run at times that are actually dedicated to family. Many have shift work. Second: Why should people join a guild just to satisfy YOUR requirements? Why don't YOU join a guild with regular trial groups where people meet YOUR requirements? Sounds to me like you want to be carried in a sense too if you allow me that (friendly meant) pun. You expect other people to be up to your expectation so you don't have to take care for players that have not reached your level of expertise.

Also you say: Some people don't want to play certain mechanics because they don't know it and are hence afraid to do so. I think this is entirely true and I did this too on some occasions. There is a remedy to it that might work here but this needs to be applied by the vast majority and let me say your post is the opposite of that remedy. The remedy is to forgive people if they fail doing this mechanic. In so many occasions I have seen so much toxicity towards players failing to do a certain mechanic that many people shy away of doing a special mechanic if they are not 100% sure to succeed in it. In case that next time you should be tempted to flame at guys failing to do a certain mechanic ask yourself if you are not contraproductive here. I would even say it would be much much better to provide assistance to that person who fails to do a certain mechanic by explaining what has to be done when. This person will be more competent later and fail less likely and hence be less "carried". In addition you do something for your karma.