Once you unlock all spell alterations on one character...

gariondavey · June 13

You should be able to buy all the affixes etc for gold.

The amount of grinding needed to unlock the ways to alter the new skills on all your characters is just absurd.

EdjeSwift · June 13

gariondavey wrote: »

You should be able to buy all the affixes etc for gold.

The amount of grinding needed to unlock the ways to alter the new skills on all your characters is just absurd.

You can, you just need a bit of patience with the rotating vendor at the Scholarium.

gariondavey · June 13

EdjeSwift wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

You should be able to buy all the affixes etc for gold.

The amount of grinding needed to unlock the ways to alter the new skills on all your characters is just absurd.

You can, you just need a bit of patience with the rotating vendor at the Scholarium.

I mean instantly available. Most people who play this game aren't teenagers with endless free time...we are adults with jobs and kids and busy lives.

Haenk · June 13

What's the point in "everything is instantly available"? All targets reached leaves little incentive to play any further.
I always consider MMORPG as a multi-year gameplay.
(I formerly played another MMORPG - which is still available, after 25+ years! - where progress required lots and lots of thinking, trying, and months of failure. That didn't stop parties from trying again and again and again. Until a solution was found and the quest could progress. "Run there, task complete, done, game finished" just seems to be so boring.)

Aurielle · June 13

Haenk wrote: »

What's the point in "everything is instantly available"? All targets reached leaves little incentive to play any further.
I always consider MMORPG as a multi-year gameplay.
(I formerly played another MMORPG - which is still available, after 25+ years! - where progress required lots and lots of thinking, trying, and months of failure. That didn't stop parties from trying again and again and again. Until a solution was found and the quest could progress. "Run there, task complete, done, game finished" just seems to be so boring.)

There has been a shift in mindset towards grinding over the last decade or so. See: the backlash against Diablo. See: the waning popularity of MMORPGs.

When I was a teenager / in my early 20s, I didn’t bat an eyelid at grindy MMOs. I’m pushing 40 now, and my priorities have changed. Real life and work is stressful enough as it is, so I want to play games in my free time to have fun. I don’t want to play games that feel like second jobs. I’m fortunate enough to still have a fair bit of free time compared to other people my age (we’re child-free), but I can absolutely see how people with kids (especially young kids) struggle with grindy games.

Scribing is needlessly grindy. I’ve been working on grinding out the scripts on my main since around release date, and I’m still not done. I have six other alts that I use in PVP as well… each will have to go through the same grind to have the same build flexibility as my main, which is a little insane — especially when you consider the grind needed to acquire ink on top of it all. The vendor scripts help, but they can keep the IA vendor scripts. Even 3k archival fortunes for a previously learned script is too much, considering how long it takes to earn that currency…

IMO, learning scripts should be account-wide if the ink drop rate isn’t going to change. I don’t mind grinding one thing to advance a system, but expecting us to grind two things is just too much.

xylena_lazarow · June 13

EdjeSwift wrote: »

You can, you just need a bit of patience with the rotating vendor at the Scholarium.

Ah yes, my favorite video game content that I just paid $40 for, waiting.

xylena_lazarow · June 13

Haenk wrote: »

What's the point in "everything is instantly available"? All targets reached leaves little incentive to play any further.

I'd like to have fun with the Scribing system I just paid $40 for. Make PvP builds and stuff. If you want the game to be nothing but a cycle of grinding chores to "earn" rewards that you proceed to do nothing with, that's on you.

Lazarus_Rising · June 13

There is an easy solution

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haenk wrote: »

What's the point in "everything is instantly available"? All targets reached leaves little incentive to play any further.

I'd like to have fun with the Scribing system I just paid $40 for. Make PvP builds and stuff. If you want the game to be nothing but a cycle of grinding chores to "earn" rewards that you proceed to do nothing with, that's on you.

Yeah thats it for me too. I want to experiment with different skills and try them out for my necromancer in pvp. But i have to go through all that grind.

There should be some specific farm method for scripts. Like you pick one and then you need to do mission like in the beginning of the scribing quest.

For example you pick Anchorites Cruelty and then you can do either:

X Battlegrounds
X Normal Dungeons
X Vet-Dungeons
X Trials
X Alliance Points
X ...

Thats how people can continue with what they like best in the game and also get something out of it. Lets make a weekly and go.

wolfie1.0. · June 13

Don't worry. In time you just might be able to unlock the entire system for another $40 in the crown store.

xylena_lazarow · June 13

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Don't worry. In time you just might be able to unlock the entire system for another $40 in the crown store.

I'd pay that right now to have the damn thing finished for my whole account. ZOS take my money.

gariondavey · June 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Haenk wrote: »

What's the point in "everything is instantly available"? All targets reached leaves little incentive to play any further.

I'd like to have fun with the Scribing system I just paid $40 for. Make PvP builds and stuff. If you want the game to be nothing but a cycle of grinding chores to "earn" rewards that you proceed to do nothing with, that's on you.

Exactly

tsaescishoeshiner · June 13

I don't mind farming/grinding/working once to unlock all the scripts. I just don't like having to wait for RNG at the vendor to be able to buy it at on an alt. This has led me to try and save the Bound Scripts I might want in the bank--but how do I know which one I'll need?

So for me, "instantly available" doesn't mean not having a grind for it, just that it would be nice to be able to buy them once you've unlocked them on one character, or maybe once you have the achievements for collecting them all. Then it's a reward for your farm!

Alternatively, it'd be better vendor just had more scripts available each day, like two or three time as many as now.

Firstmep · June 13

gariondavey wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

You should be able to buy all the affixes etc for gold.

The amount of grinding needed to unlock the ways to alter the new skills on all your characters is just absurd.

You can, you just need a bit of patience with the rotating vendor at the Scholarium.

I mean instantly available. Most people who play this game aren't teenagers with endless free time...we are adults with jobs and kids and busy lives.

You have a busy life, but you want to play multiple toons with maxed out scribing? Somehow doesnt compute with me.

You can pick up a fair amount of scripts on every toon very easily, and then just do a couple dailies for the rest and you will get there.

SeaUnicorn · June 13

Firstmep wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

You should be able to buy all the affixes etc for gold.

The amount of grinding needed to unlock the ways to alter the new skills on all your characters is just absurd.

You can, you just need a bit of patience with the rotating vendor at the Scholarium.

I mean instantly available. Most people who play this game aren't teenagers with endless free time...we are adults with jobs and kids and busy lives.

You have a busy life, but you want to play multiple toons with maxed out scribing? Somehow doesnt compute with me.

You can pick up a fair amount of scripts on every toon very easily, and then just do a couple dailies for the rest and you will get there.

In PVE most important scripts for supports are not available from easy to get sources, vendor on week 1 and 2 did not have heroism, courage, mitigation, brittle, taunt, pull, gladiator tenacity, growing impact, and warmages defense. Supports are the ones who are constantly need to alternate between characters due to meta being different in different trials. I need warden, blade, necro, sorc healers, DK, necro, and sorc tanks to be ready. It's 7 toons.
I been grinding non stop entire tome since release, and I only have 2 supports ready, rest are missing key scripts still.
For DD it's easy, you had what you needed day 1 which is off balance and warrior opportunity, and you only need arcanist, Zen DK, sorc, and necro, which in only 4 and out of those 4 only necro needs scribing. So just one toon.

Elrond87 · June 13

they made class script through the vendor once learnt on main, it baffled me as to why not the others

Desiato · June 13

This is a game of progression systems. If you're against this one, does that mean you're against them all?

- levels
- cp
- gold
- crafting
- writs
- gear
- skill lines
- etc

Would eso be a better game if a player started level 50, 3600 cp, with all skill lines and gear sets in their collections? Should upgrading gear be removed with all items being legendary?

I mean, is the master crafting station grind too much? Should every player start with a set of them in their homes? Should all alts start at level 50 with all skill lines maxed?

IMO, the progression for scribing is very mild. I think it's stressful for some players who already felt time constrained and want to get back to what they were doing and for those who are excited to experiment but that's a short term thing.

This definitely isn't a nolife everquest grind. It's actually very casual. We're not even 2 weeks into this.

Aurielle · June 13

Desiato wrote: »

This is a game of progression systems. If you're against this one, does that mean you're against them all?

- levels
- cp
- gold
- crafting
- writs
- gear
- skill lines
- etc

Would eso be a better game if a player started level 50, 3600 cp, with all skill lines and gear sets in their collections?

I mean, is the master crafting station grind too much? Should every player start with a set of them in their homes? Should all alts start at level 50 with all skill lines maxed?

IMO, the progression for scribing is very mild. I think it's just stressful for some players who already feel time constrained and want to get back to what they were doing and for those who are excited to experiment but that's a short term thing.

This definitely isn't a nolife everquest grind. It's actually very casual. We're not even 2 weeks into this.

Adding new grindy progression systems to each update simply increases the overall burden of work in what should ideally be a fun game.

Out of your list of progression-related grinds, only levels and skill lines aren’t account-wide. CP is shared, gold can be shared, only one character needs to do all the crafting research, only one character has to grind master writs for vouchers, all gear can be shared with alts, gear added to the sticker book by one alt can be reconstructed by another alt without needing to grind for the gear again, etc.

I don’t care about grinding for the scribing stuff once. I care about having to grind it over and over again on each character. The RNG factor doesn’t help. What if I have just one specific skill in mind for one of my alts? Doesn’t matter if my main can make it, I have keep waiting and waiting to make the skill on my alt, based entirely on RNG script drops or waiting who knows how long for the vendor to offer the relevant scripts I need.

EdjeSwift · June 13

Aurielle wrote: »

I don’t care about grinding for the scribing stuff once. I care about having to grind it over and over again on each character. The RNG factor doesn’t help. What if I have just one specific skill in mind for one of my alts? Doesn’t matter if my main can make it, I have keep waiting and waiting to make the skill on my alt, based entirely on RNG script drops or waiting who knows how long for the vendor to offer the relevant scripts I need.

The workaround for this is personal curation. I've learned all the scripts I need from the first tree except for Pull on my secondary character and do the quests for unlocks on her primarily until i get Pull on all my alts, same with Brutality in the Affix slot. Once all my alts learn it, I'll figure out what else I need and self-curate from there. Most of the scripts I'm not going to use so I'm focusing on the ones I may. Since Prophecy/Savagery is in the shop right now I just bought those for the ones who I feel I need it on.

Necrotech_Master · June 13

while i would support unlocking scripts faster for alt characters, having the scripts and everything accessible from the get go doesnt alleviate the other major problem with the system, which is the ink grind

by the time i have enough ink to even utilize anything in the system, i bet most of my characters will have learned almost every script (due to a combination of natural curated drops, buying from the scholarium vendor, and duplicate drops from my main who already knows everything)

Desiato · June 13

Aurielle wrote: »

Out of your list of progression-related grinds, only levels and skill lines aren’t account-wide. CP is shared, gold can be shared, only one character needs to do all the crafting research, only one character has to grind master writs for vouchers, all gear can be shared with alts, gear added to the sticker book by one alt can be reconstructed by another alt without needing to grind for the gear again, etc.

But the same arguments made against scribing progression could be made for any of the progression systems for a new player. Or anyone with a busy life who wants to perform a new role with a new character or gear in a trial or pvp group.

Sure, a new player could look at ESO as an insurmountable mountain to climb! It could take a year to catch up to everyone else. Or they could view it as a year+ of enjoyable progression, which I presume they're into when they decided to play an online RPG.

I play RPGs because I enjoy developing characters. This is a new aspect of character development. Sure, there are some scribing abilities I'd like to try right now, but it's not really a big deal that I can't. There's also gear I'd love to have right now, but I have to make the time to get it first. I'm fine with that in the context of an RPG.

gariondavey · June 13

Firstmep wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

You should be able to buy all the affixes etc for gold.

The amount of grinding needed to unlock the ways to alter the new skills on all your characters is just absurd.

You can, you just need a bit of patience with the rotating vendor at the Scholarium.

I mean instantly available. Most people who play this game aren't teenagers with endless free time...we are adults with jobs and kids and busy lives.

You have a busy life, but you want to play multiple toons with maxed out scribing? Somehow doesnt compute with me.

You can pick up a fair amount of scripts on every toon very easily, and then just do a couple dailies for the rest and you will get there.

Are you actually serious?
Take the psijic quest line, for example.
It (race agains time) is a staple in PvP builds and you almost always will need to grind the skill line for any character you have.
It takes around 4 hours to farm the quest line.
It takes way more than 4 hours to get all scribing parts unlocked on an alt.
This isn't even taking into account the fact that you can buy the psijic line on alt characters from the crown store.

Bottom line, scribing takes way too long to unlock on alts. Sorry if that somehow doesn't "compute" in your mind, but as many more people have been in agreement with the sentiments I have listed in this thread than with you, it would appear that perhaps some more computing attempts are in order.

Elvenheart · June 13

gariondavey wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

You should be able to buy all the affixes etc for gold.

The amount of grinding needed to unlock the ways to alter the new skills on all your characters is just absurd.

You can, you just need a bit of patience with the rotating vendor at the Scholarium.

I mean instantly available. Most people who play this game aren't teenagers with endless free time...we are adults with jobs and kids and busy lives.

Truly, madly, deeply agree with all of this. Once we’ve learned the script on one character, it should be available for a low amount of gold on the vendor for our alts, ALL THE TIME, not just in rotating groups of four on a weekly basis. Grinding for the scripts one time is enough. This issue, combined with the low drop rate for inks, just ruins the system.

MasterSpatula · June 14

If they're going to halve the number of actual content releases per year, they have to keep you repeating the same tired content all year to keep you playing. This was the strategy behind delaying motifs for months after content release. Less content than ever, but you have to keep doing it well after it stops being enjoyable to truly complete it, all to make it feel like more content than it really is.

Now, it's the major draw (for many) of the new release turning into a year (if not years) long grind. Cause if there's one thing we know ZOS is good at, it's doubling down on a bad idea.

SilverBride · June 14

Of all the things that were made account wide, Scribing should be moved to the top of the list.

ShadowPaladin · June 14

Though I can understand the reason(s) for not wanting to spent too much time for aquiring certain things and/or stuff, I must say, after playing different MMOs for the last 22 years, that it is part of a MMO game. If you want to have stuff instantly than you should not play a MMO, but instead a single player game, where you can use console commands or cheat-trainers or cheat engine to get all the stuff you want. MMOs or game which do need a certain minimum time investment are not for you

.

On a more or less sarcastic note

.

I do recommend for ZOS to introduce new Store offers (ATTENTION!!! I do mean STORE and NOT(!) Crown-Store!!!) for all those people wanting everything in an instant, without investing time to get it (because they can't or don't want to invest time). Those offers should be something like:

*Pay 10,000 $ or € per NEW Char and get nearly everything maxed out (e.g. Lv, CP, most Skills, Skyshards).*

Another offer in addition to that should be:

*Pay 1,000 $ or € per NEW Char and get ONE special Skillline or function (eg. Thieves or Dark Brotherhood or Psijic or Scribing or etc.) unlocked.*

I would find it interesting to see how many people would be - well, lets be open about it and say how it would be

- "stupid" enough to pay 10,000 $ / € and multiple times 1,000 $ / € for a NEW Char to unlock all that stuff.

P.s.: Regarding the NEW char. I do mean a new char, on a new account. Meaning, you do not have anything unlocked at all. I am NOT talking about alts/twinks, where you can use the *catch up* mechanics already in place in the crown store, if you do have those things already unlocked on one of your chars (main char for example)!

gariondavey · June 15

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

Though I can understand the reason(s) for not wanting to spent too much time for aquiring certain things and/or stuff, I must say, after playing different MMOs for the last 22 years, that it is part of a MMO game. If you want to have stuff instantly than you should not play a MMO, but instead a single player game, where you can use console commands or cheat-trainers or cheat engine to get all the stuff you want. MMOs or game which do need a certain minimum time investment are not for you .

On a more or less sarcastic note .

I do recommend for ZOS to introduce new Store offers (ATTENTION!!! I do mean STORE and NOT(!) Crown-Store!!!) for all those people wanting everything in an instant, without investing time to get it (because they can't or don't want to invest time). Those offers should be something like:

*Pay 10,000 $ or € per NEW Char and get nearly everything maxed out (e.g. Lv, CP, most Skills, Skyshards).*

Another offer in addition to that should be:

*Pay 1,000 $ or € per NEW Char and get ONE special Skillline or function (eg. Thieves or Dark Brotherhood or Psijic or Scribing or etc.) unlocked.*

I would find it interesting to see how many people would be - well, lets be open about it and say how it would be - "stupid" enough to pay 10,000 $ / € and multiple times 1,000 $ / € for a NEW Char to unlock all that stuff.

P.s.: Regarding the NEW char. I do mean a new char, on a new account. Meaning, you do not have anything unlocked at all. I am NOT talking about alts/twinks, where you can use the *catch up* mechanics already in place in the crown store, if you do have those things already unlocked on one of your chars (main char for example)!

This comment is unbelievably out of touch.
I have thousands of hours invested into this game. I play this game to pvp, as do many others. 4 hours per character for something like psijic line was bad enough. This is much lengthier. It makes it difficult for people to get multiple characters ready for the highest level pvp, where you have very high set and skill coordination with your group.

There is a middle ground for valuing your customer's time but also not making it laughably easy. Currently unlocking all the scribing parts for alts is grossly egregious in disregarding our time. People almost all agree with this.

heng14rwb17_ESO · June 15

Once I unlock all spell, I will unlease them all onto ESO !

Lags · June 15

gariondavey wrote: »

You should be able to buy all the affixes etc for gold.

The amount of grinding needed to unlock the ways to alter the new skills on all your characters is just absurd.

you're 10000% right. And unfortunately you're always going to see people on here that will praise anything zos does, and come into these threads to let you know. Especially the more casual audience that doesnt really care if it takes a long time to do something like this. Because when you play casually you dont really care about testing skills to make builds to pvp or do harder pve content.

Now if it was a style page or a housing item that took a long time to get, then lookout, theyll be up in arms.

angst · June 15

I wonder what forum users would be able to accomplish if they did research [snip]. Drops are curated, you can just not learn the ones that you need on a character and farm the *** out of them

[edited for baiting]

Haenk · June 15

gariondavey wrote: »

I have thousands of hours invested into this game. ... 4 hours per character for something like psijic line was bad enough.

You mean, like 99.9% you like in this game and 0.1% of things you don't like is completely out of balance? Maybe - but only maybe - those 0.1% game content are in-game for people who like that kind of content and might even be more than 0.1% of the players?

gariondavey · June 16

Haenk wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

I have thousands of hours invested into this game. ... 4 hours per character for something like psijic line was bad enough.

You mean, like 99.9% you like in this game and 0.1% of things you don't like is completely out of balance? Maybe - but only maybe - those 0.1% game content are in-game for people who like that kind of content and might even be more than 0.1% of the players?

Things that are unnecessary long grinds/too rng dependant:
-Weapon drops from last boss in dungeons (weapons should be included in drop tables for all bosses or there should be a token system)
-Antiquity leads (needs ramping drop rate, 300 daily quests for markyn ring lead was insufferable, many others as well)
-scrying as mentioned in this thread for alts (should all be buyable for alts with gold or in crown store)
-monster shoulder pieces (need duration or a specific weight for increased price)
-style pages for the anniversary event (time limited, rare drop rate, bound on pickup...pick 2 of these 3 next time zos)

Edit: also if you don't want to be able to buy scribing on alts with gold as proposed, don't do it...? Grind away to your hearts content?