Very very disappointed with the grind needed with gold road

BlueRaven

I think my main issue is that they put in so many grinds in to gold road.

Each public dungeon has a grind.
Scribing has multiple grinds.
The “Mosaics” are a grind.
Even master writs now have a grind.
And of course the new furniture and new armor motif grinds.

It just feels a bit overwhelming.

Desiato

BlueRaven wrote: »

It just feels a bit overwhelming.

Why though? You don't have to do it all at once. You can take your time and enjoy the scenery.

Progression elements are a feature in games for those who enjoy them. That's why they were created in the first place. Before this was a big business, the RPG genre was created by hobbyists for other hobbyists who enjoy this kind of thing.

I can't imagine playing a game like ESO if the idea of progression instead of instant gratification was so repulsive.

The progression elements in this game are all pretty casual and mild. There's no real contested content to compete with other players for outside of the trader market. There are so many things to do in ESO, one can spend all day and all night doing them if they choose, but no one has to.

The idea is that there are various end points that we gradually build towards. We can choose the pace. For many aspects, there is great flexibility. Hate thieving and pickpocketing for furniture recipes? Hate harvesting? NP, you can trade with other players for those things.

In the case of ink, it's a tradable item and the devs have indicated that they're not currently dropping as intended from bosses, so that should increase availability.

I feel the progression ramp for scribing is very mild. After a week, I'm almost done and I haven't been focused on it. I've scribed some abilities that weren't perfect because of the options as I have available, so I look forward to revising them as I go.

Elsonso

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think my main issue is that they put in so many grinds in to gold road.

Each public dungeon has a grind.
Scribing has multiple grinds.
The “Mosaics” are a grind.
Even master writs now have a grind.
And of course the new furniture and new armor motif grinds.

It just feels a bit overwhelming.

It might not be so bad if the studio definition of "grind" was not "insanely low random probability". ZOS really needs to take a step back from the low probability random number generator. They need to do more curation or introduce some other way to handle random drops so they don't need to do insanely low probabilities.

karthrag_inak

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even master writs now have a grind.

What is different about master writs?

CrazyKitty

Shagreth wrote: »

If insane grind is the new answer for less content -- then I'm definitely quitting, WoW looks like the better game now than when I left it 4 years ago, too bad the general direction of ESO is so bad, I should have taken a hint years ago when they normalized weaving (formally an engine bug) resulting in a combat that feels like ass, but weaving is sadly not the only culprit. Then we wait for years for something new like new class abilities etc. and what we get is scribing. So crazy.

Totally agree with everything you said except I like the light attack weaving much better than tab targeting mechanics.

Gaebriel0410

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think my main issue is that they put in so many grinds in to gold road.

Each public dungeon has a grind.
Scribing has multiple grinds.
The “Mosaics” are a grind.
Even master writs now have a grind.
And of course the new furniture and new armor motif grinds.

It just feels a bit overwhelming.

I don't think any of those are a grind at all, imo at least. And I am someone who hates grinding. Maybe they can be a grind if you want everything instantly and don't rest before you have it all, but honestly that is on the player and not the game.

For example the public dungeon needs 25 fragments for some thingy, I did them for the first time yesterday and got 9 or 8 fragments in each. So that means you have to run them about 2,5 times to get the reward. That's not a grind, that's gameplay.

In comparison, those Blackwood public dungeon fragments drropped maybe once a run if I was lucky, That I consider a grind. Which is also why I still haven't done it.

Furniture isn't a grind either, maybe if you need everything right away to take advantage of the scandalous new-chapter-stuff-prices, but then it's a matter of considering if the effort is worth the payout.

xylena_lazarow

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Maybe they can be a grind if you want everything instantly and don't rest before you have it all, but honestly that is on the player and not the game.

If I pay $40 for new content, yes I do want it instantly, and I'm definitely not paying $40 to replay old content I find boring (except now it's even worse because it's also time gated). The game turns itself into an obstacle and a chore. Instead of PvPing with my friends, or pugging 4 person content, I gotta sit alone by myself doing grind logistics and chores for bots? Nah this isn't "earning" anything this is just wasting time. Godawful boring gaming experience, not worth $40.

Scribing itself is worth it, but screw the grind. Get rid of this game model already.

Necrotech_Master

karthrag_inak wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even master writs now have a grind.

What is different about master writs?

master writs are a source of class mastery script scraps (of which you need 50 to unlock), which is 1 master writ a day for 50 days if you dont participate in other activities that award the scraps

Shagreth

CrazyKitty wrote: »

Totally agree with everything you said except I like the light attack weaving much better than tab targeting mechanics.

Some speak like weaving is the best thing since sliced bread, it speaks volumes if the combat of ESO needs something like that to feel 'fulfilling'.

shadyjane62

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Cries in 15 characters
Griding since release, saw 1 ink

I look in the beginner area exclusively. Doesn't matter if it's my main maxed out or a new alt I get a lot averaging 10 for cpl hours.

Kenarthi's Roost Stros M'kai or Bleakrock best. Often getting 2 at a time.

SeaUnicorn I am on PCNA.

karthrag_inak

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even master writs now have a grind.

What is different about master writs?

master writs are a source of class mastery script scraps (of which you need 50 to unlock), which is 1 master writ a day for 50 days if you dont participate in other activities that award the scraps

Ah, khajiit understands. The writs do not require grinding, but rather the grind is doing the writs.

Orbital78

Don't think of it as a grind but things to work towards. Maybe they should stop the effort and grind for trifectas and just make them casually easy too? Inks are not as rare as people are making it out to be, unless you are lazy and just expect them to drop into your lap. We also know that the drops are broken until the incremental patch, the price of inks is already down 25k if you refuse to earn them without gold. The scripts aren't that bad to get either if you do the quests each day and do you random dungeons. A script drops each time for me that I do a dungeon, and it isn't limited by account. 100% drop per character.

SeaUnicorn

sarahthes wrote: »

SeaUnicorn wrote: »

Cries in 15 characters
Griding since release, saw 1 ink

I'm up to 70 ink, with only farming on Saturday/Sunday and a tiny bit yesterday.

how many crowns did you buy for the luck buff?

OtarTheMad

The ink drop rates and the scribing scripts grind is really turning me away, mostly the ink drop rates. The scribing skills aren’t even that amazing. They are fun to use, no doubt and I am enjoying the ones I’ve made so far but am I going to go out of my way to try and get them all? No, maybe if ink was easier to get.

It wouldn’t be much of an issue if I had more time to play but I don’t. I have things to do and this is just one of many things I do to fill me time.

MidniteOwl1913

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even master writs now have a grind.

What is different about master writs?

master writs are a source of class mastery script scraps (of which you need 50 to unlock), which is 1 master writ a day for 50 days if you dont participate in other activities that award the scraps

Ah, khajiit understands. The writs do not require grinding, but rather the grind is doing the writs.

It sounds like the grinds have grinds...

Nharimlur_Finor

Shagreth wrote: »

If insane grind is the new answer for less content -- then I'm definitely quitting, WoW looks like the better game now than when I left it 4 years ago, too bad the general direction of ESO is so bad, I should have taken a hint years ago when they normalized weaving (formally an engine bug) resulting in a combat that feels like ass, but weaving is sadly not the only culprit. Then we wait for years for something new like new class abilities etc. and what we get is scribing. So crazy.

Take the hint now then.

Mathius_Mordred

Hmm, reading everything you guys have written I have to admit that the grind for the ink is the only real problem for me. I can see my class mastery fragments accumulating and it's not going to take me long to get them playing daily. Same for all the other scripts, affix, focus, and signature, most of those in the achievements I should get this week. I'm not really sure where you guys are feeling this massive grind other than farming for ink.

By the way I watched our UK leader's debate the other night which lasted two hours, in that time I farmed 17 inks from nodes in a starter zone, that's enough for almost 6 Grimoires. The problem is they hardly ever drop from anything else, I've had one drop from one random enemy in a delve and one drop from a steam vent in a delve, after killing hundreds or maybe thousands of enemies since the launch of update 42 they are the only two that have dropped from kills. None from any other source except resource nodes.

This does indeed make it a grind if you want to experiment with lots of different grimoires. You can buy them from traders but the price is quite high, too high to buy hundreds at least, around 60-70K each (PC EU).

It's certainly not the worst grind ever but it does remove some of the fun from the update. Casually harvesting resource nodes will probably only see one or two ink drops per day or two, you have to concentrate several hours to get a meaningful amount.

Other than that I have no complaints, I enjoyed the scribing questline, I like the way they opened it up to alts, I love the zone and have yet to play a single quest there yet other than the dailies. I am in no way disappointed from my purchase, however being older than most of you perhaps I have more patience and don't seek instant gratification. The problem with instant gratification is there is nothing to look forward to, nothing to aim for, as you get older you realise that it's the anticipation of something that's often more enjoyable than the something when it happens.

barney2525

don't think of it as a ' Grind '.

think of it as ....

ok, it's a Grind

Eternalscourge1

Its like some of you have never played an MMO before

nokturnihs

The scribing quest line is boring and long, and I had to consume it in chunks because it's boring af and doing crap that I've done so many times before... I'd love a little more effort into the questing but that was a lazy choice they made.

There is always grind in these games - every game most the time. I will say the grind here is a little bleh but mainly because it's per-character for scribing scripts, not account wide.

I am a build crafter kinda guy - it's what I enjoy RPG's for. I have 17 toons and yet i find myself barely interested in scribing now that I have it done because it's going to be days of grind per toon for the scripts and so, as a "custom skill system" it's almost useless with multiple toons or if you've a large number of characters. It discourages exploring it. And the fact that the main quest for it and the grind for the scripts is same-old, same-old rather than being something you can obtain more naturally (whatever you're here for, PvP or PvE, solo questing, just picking nodes, etc) - basically anything outside of boring ass dailies... I find myself uninterested in the shiny new but boring as hell new system because it's not worth the house chores to invest in outside of my "main" which was fine the way she was.

TLDR:
It's supposed to be a custom skill system and encourage experimentation but the acquisition of said system and it's components discourages the system as a whole outside of one character whom most won't likely have any USE FOR... Unless you're a young neck-beard who has 16 hours a day every day to play ESO and wanna grind that badly for all your alts...

Side note: most the base skills in the system are kinda just meh. Long animations or cast times, and the synergies aren't great overall unless you wanna dig into niche sets or whatever. Some are decent I'd guess but again... If we're doing this on our mains and aren't "new players" then we've likely got our weapon choices sorted, and it's going to be rare you find a use for most of these.

nokturnihs

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

Its like some of you have never played an MMO before

We've played MMOs. However some games make their grinds actually fun rather than "hey hon, run down to the gas station and buy mommy some more smokes" (actually that might be more fun than some of the daily quests you need to do for script collection).

oicero

And people wonder "why there are less people on servers every passing day".
And imagine you are not a "plays only 1 character" person.
Sorry guys but You(ZoS) have made an apealing chapter but sucked at the grinding part.
10 year old game, mostly old player who has family and job to deal with. And maybe only a couple hours to play. Please consider the sources of inks and other stuff.

Elsonso

nokturnihs wrote: »

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

Its like some of you have never played an MMO before

We've played MMOs. However some games make their grinds actually fun rather than "hey hon, run down to the gas station and buy mommy some more smokes" (actually that might be more fun than some of the daily quests you need to do for script collection).

It won't be when you realize that only 0.2% of the packs of cigarettes actually have cigarettes in them...

xylena_lazarow

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

Its like some of you have never played an MMO before

It's like some most of us aren't 20yo no lifers anymore like we were when the MMO genre first showed up a couple decades ago. The grind model is outdated. It doesn't fit adults with responsibilities who don't want their time and money wasted. Catering to the no life grind playstyle is only going to drive more and more players away (and to the forums).

nokturnihs wrote: »

actually that might be more fun than some of the daily quests you need to do for script collection

I've cleaned cat litter boxes more fun and rewarding than the daily Script chore grind.

Caligamy_ESO

You can have a grind in an MMO and also have it respect your time. Which this.. does not, so I simply wont participate until things change. I have better things to do with my time (and money) than run on a virtual treadmill that nearly goes nowhere.

Necrotech_Master

Caligamy_ESO wrote: »

You can have a grind in an MMO and also have it respect your time. Which this.. does not, so I simply wont participate until things change. I have better things to do with my time (and money) than run on a virtual treadmill that nearly goes nowhere.

i agree with this, i dont mind a bit of grind, but there is a problem with excessively low drop rates while doing so

in most cases, grinding is a finite amount of something (1000 kills for an achievement, xp to lvl, tel var/AP/gold grinding) , all of those things for example there is no RNG, its just a quantity of something, and the grind comes in when you really try to optimize your gains, while someone playing "normally" wont be impacted, it just takes them longer

even gear drops are a form of grind, but because of guaranteed drops + curation, even that has a finite grind

but when you look at inks, your talking about a system thats supposed to be flexible, but now you lack the thing which makes it flexible (the ink)

"1-time" grinds such as the monster trophy drops (which can be almost as bad as looking for ink) only need to be done once, you get the 1 rare drop and your done

antiquities can be a grind, if you dont have luck getting leads to drops and can be annoying when trying to complete a codex entry for example, and if you dont care about the codex theres less grind there, especially with mythics, because you only need to get those once before you can just recreate them

not everyone is going to enjoy grinding, or every type of grinding (master fisher is a form of a grind that uses fishing as the medium, xp grinding can be done in multiple forms such as random dungeons, farming (brp, skyreach, zombies, etc), AP is pvp, etc)

nokturnihs

Elsonso wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Eternalscourge1 wrote: »

Its like some of you have never played an MMO before

We've played MMOs. However some games make their grinds actually fun rather than "hey hon, run down to the gas station and buy mommy some more smokes" (actually that might be more fun than some of the daily quests you need to do for script collection).

It won't be when you realize that only 0.2% of the packs of cigarettes actually have cigarettes in them...

I feel like this has been the gameplay loop that ZOS has been aiming towards in most their systems ... Costly, pretty bland chores lists that ultimately don't reward you but rather reward them.

I loved path of exiles "limitless choices" but none of those choices mattered when RNG spanked you for weeks and made half of those choices inaccessible, and of the choices you could get to work only viable in a small subset of meta builds (that likely RNG would prevent you from implementing without heavy investment). It kinda pushed the feeling that you were just wasting your time and that the actual choices you had were largely illusory.

With scribing we have all the downsides of that grind (RNG, few viable options once you got it done). And hey, another thing ZOS and GGG share a love for is costly micro transactions, so when they release a crown store "script collection" I'm sure it will make them bank...

Quethrosar

i was happy to see onyx black unlocked for me at 50 inks. now i do not care about the grind.

Shadowbinder7

RomanRex wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

It seems like ZOS is substituting grind time for new content to keep players in game.

100%.

Many of us are highly invested in this game. They know we will get FOMO even if the content is lame. We will grind it out because we feel obligated.

That’ll change soon with the insane grinding they’ve foisted upon us in the last year. It’s not fun anymore. All grind tasks with very little new or entertaining content.

This is so true I wish ZOS would pay close attention to comments like this an act accordingly.

To quote Sotha Sil… “Ah well”

Sarannah

Personally I think all grind are fine, except the script grind for alt characters. That grind is beyond insane, as I have 20 characters. If ZOS wants me to actually use scribing, I need to be able to actually use it on every character and be able to check all possibilities on every character to see what I can even do with it.

And the script grind on alts isn't just a problem now, but will be every time they add new scripts in the future. Making that same insane grind start all over again. Scripts should be accountwide, there is no middleground.

At the moment I am not bothering with scribing at all: not trying to gather scripts for alts anymore as I want to play the game, not trying any scribed skills as I can't check all characters to see what their scribing possibilities are without fully unlocking the scripts, and not doing the endeavours trying to get me to use this system.

This grind for scripts isn't actually making me want to play more, but it's actually making me want to play less. As right now, scribing just seems like an impossible wall to climb. The scribing system is there, I want to use it, but it won't let me!

PS: I have plenty of ink.