Not happy with the story ending (spoilers)

Soarora

deGarcia wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Jyggalag's aesthetic applied to a new sister of Meridia and no mention of Jyggalag nor Meridia anywhere.

Honestly I don't think that this is how it works. She was given a winged design to bear resemblance with Meridia, and her entire theme is glass-centered. She herself, as one Ithelia says, breaks like glass, you're using a glass mirror against her, etc etc, so the obvious choice was incorporating it into the wings. As someone who lives by making character designs, I don't see any problem here or resemblence to Jyggalag..? Mephala also has crystals in Skein and her furnishing packs.

Her having wings to match with Meridia is fine, her having mirrors makes sense as well (shattered mirror causes distortions of reality and all that), my problem is that's all she is and there's no mention of her predecessors in the quest whatsoever.

If Meridia and Jyggalag were at least mentioned, I wouldn't be so angry. Without the mention it feels like ZOS forgot about Jyggalag. The relation between Ithelia and Jyggalag far surpasses the crystals (which some of them, due to ESO's graphics, really do just look like white/grey crystals which are exactly the only thing Jyggalag has as an aesthetic-- grey crystals and symmetry. It's not just that there's crystals, Mephala's crystals are red.), their story follows the same path. Jyggalag made the other Princes afraid to the point that he had to be cursed, so they ganged up on him. Ithelia made the other Princes afraid to the point that she had to be imprisoned, so she ganged up on him. Jyggalag has no known followers and very few people remember him. Ithelia has little known followers and very few people remember her. During the quest, Vaermina exclaims "we can't do this to another Prince!" but what does she mean, does she mean gang up and imprison or force all to forget because if it's the former they already did that to Jyggalag or they would do so in the future. If it's the latter, then why is Vaermina upset about what's happening to Ithelia instead of what's happening to herself? I feel Vaermina would be more likely to say "you can't do that to us" if it's about removing memories of Ithelia from everyone.

Can even stretch it to say that Jyggalag also has hands in Fate as he had his Library which mathematically calculated the future, but Ithelia's connection to Fate is more akin to what ZOS has established Hermaeus Mora as having. That said, I am really concerned about if this multiverse thing is allowed under Akatosh due to how Dragonbreaks happen.

That is also not to say that just because Jyggalag was ganged up on that other Princes cannot be either, it's just that we don't have much lore on Jyggalag so to make a Prince this similar and not mention him at all really does make it seem like he was forgotten. Even a small easter egg would've meant that ZOS was aware that Ithelia's story isn't a new concept and could've helped separate the two.

Mephilis78

Because ESO is a prequel. It has to respect the continuity of the 5 actual Elder Scrolls games. Also this game is apparently considered canon despite all the silly things it does. So it has to come back around to the right number of Deadric Princes and the right amount of Divines in order to keep calling it canon.

Mephilis78

Soarora wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

A non-zero part of me expects her to show up in Elder Scrolls 6, whenever that comes out.

SHE BETTER NOT! I have been hoping so strongly that we get more Jyggalag lore in TES6. He is out there, but what is he doing? We got nothing in Skyrim, so we need him back for TES6 in some way— his rebuilding followers, a messenger from Dysus, a statue, something that continues the lore on where he is and what he has become, for his story is not over. He is free now, but what has changed? He’s not taking over everything immediately with Order, so what gives?

If we get Ithelia instead, she’ll completely overshadow Jyggalag because as we see in Gold Road, Ithelia is copy Jyggalag but make it a little different so the teacher doesn’t catch on that you’re cheating.

I'm sure TES 6 will have more that one deadric quest, my friend. It's not either or with a real Elder Scrolls game.

deGarcia

Soarora wrote: »

Ithelia made the other Princes afraid to the point that she had to be imprisoned

- Ithelia saved the realm once, but, according to Hermeus Mora, doomed it for another catastrophe (basic trope of 'do X thing in timeline and it causes ripples'). Hermora alone was afraid and it was him who convinced other Princes to act against her (specifically Mephala, Boethiah, Azura). We know for sure only about these 4, and Pery+Vaermina who didn't agree to this. Opinion of other Princes isn't stated anywhere.
- Jyggalag was imprisoned out of less rational fear. Ithelia, in Mora's perception, posed a specific threat to the realm. Jyggalag was just not to the Princes liking, as far as I understamd

Soarora wrote: »

Ithelia has little known followers and very few people remember her

Ithelia had shrines all over Colovia for certain, as she was worshipped by Ayleids. Currently, they are extinct, if we ignore the 'bosmer heritage of ayleid' thing going on. Memories of her were erased from everyone but Hermora, so she is simply unable to have followers. She did still have her dremoras, though, but they didn't remember what Prince they belong to.

Soarora wrote: »

During the quest, Vaermina exclaims "we can't do this to another Prince!" but what does she mean

She means that erasing entire existence of someone, basically, is over the top. It's not a curse, it's not banishment even, what Mora wanted the sentence to be is equal to erasure of one's existence. Jyggalag wasn't erased from everyone's memory.

Soarora wrote: »

That said, I am really concerned about if this multiverse thing is allowed under Akatosh due to how Dragonbreaks happen.

No problems here, tbh. Dragonbreaks occur when timeline is broken. Ithelia doesn't break timelines, she can only traverse between them (iirc with difficulties) and see them. Even to merge them, she has to use the Loom in Mirrormoor, but we don't get to know if it counts as breaking the timeline because Vestige destroys it before she ever gets to use it.

I understand that you like Jyggalag, but from my perspective, your fondness of him is what makes it hard to accept Ithelia. You don't have to adore her, obviously, I just don't see any connections. The things you named are very surface-leveled and I explained the differences above.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Could of just made it so she wanted to be mortal and there is the solution, could of even had her present in future ESO content without needing to explain her absence from the single player games.

Soarora

Mephilis78 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

A non-zero part of me expects her to show up in Elder Scrolls 6, whenever that comes out.

SHE BETTER NOT! I have been hoping so strongly that we get more Jyggalag lore in TES6. He is out there, but what is he doing? We got nothing in Skyrim, so we need him back for TES6 in some way— his rebuilding followers, a messenger from Dysus, a statue, something that continues the lore on where he is and what he has become, for his story is not over. He is free now, but what has changed? He’s not taking over everything immediately with Order, so what gives?

If we get Ithelia instead, she’ll completely overshadow Jyggalag because as we see in Gold Road, Ithelia is copy Jyggalag but make it a little different so the teacher doesn’t catch on that you’re cheating.

I'm sure TES 6 will have more that one deadric quest, my friend. It's not either or with a real Elder Scrolls game.

That is true and fair enough, I'm just so afraid that Jyggalag will be lost forever as just another piece of TES lore with very little information despite having story hooks.

deGarcia wrote: »

I understand that you like Jyggalag, but from my perspective, your fondness of him is what makes it hard to accept Ithelia. You don't have to adore her, obviously, I just don't see any connections. The things you named are very surface-leveled and I explained the differences above.

Fair enough and thank you for taking the time to go in depth. On the point of her followers though, as far as I know the only people who remember Jyggalag are the Princes and Dysus, maybe his Daedra but they don't seem to show up except during a Greymarch and I'm not certain that they have the thought abilities of a Dremora. It's not forced like Ithelia but we have also not seen any evidence of cults or artifacts (other than his Sword, of course) and because we don't know WHEN Jyggalag was cursed and how he interacted with Nirn we can't assume that there would be any surviving cults. All we have on timeline that I know of is that Dysus was a mortal once.

I like the idea of Ithelia, I just wish ZOS would've leaned more into the rainbows of the mirrors when it comes to her crystals to better distinguish them from Jyggalag's as well as had some mention of him somewhere (Jyggalag isn't even my favorite Prince, it's that the story and aesthetics itself reminded me of him and that I'm concerned that ZOS' writers forgot about him). I also would've liked if Ithelia wasn't implied to be a more powerful Magne-Ge than Meridia, it makes it feel more like she's a mary-sue collection of Princes than a new concept that fits well within the lore.

Perhaps I am skeptical of ZOS' writing but I did think Necrom was good, so Gold Road has just been a let-down.

deGarcia

Soarora wrote: »

Fair enough and thank you for taking the time to go in depth.

No problem!

I do actually agree that after Necrom, Gold Road was like a very quick downside slide experience. I was really hoping to see any Meridia mention after it was basically confirmed during prologue\dungeon releases through books that they're related, but, alas, half the Colovian zone is filled not even with Colovian story, but bosmer local drama that doesn't have any connection to the zone itself.
It even made me lose quite a bit of affection for Necrom characters that I liked. It's kinda funny how a mirror-based Daedra reflected on herself by being shown a reflection in a mirror, but all the other characters were forced to stick to same opinion no matter what. Funny, in a sad way.

karthrag_inak

Khajiit thinks they orchestrated this so that she can show up as just a wandering lost waif who will become a potential companion in 2nd half

TaSheen

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit thinks they orchestrated this so that she can show up as just a wandering lost waif who will become a potential companion in 2nd half

Well, if that's the case, they REALLY will get slammed with players insisting on helmets for companions....

FelisCatus

TaSheen wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit thinks they orchestrated this so that she can show up as just a wandering lost waif who will become a potential companion in 2nd half

Well, if that's the case, they REALLY will get slammed with players insisting on helmets for companions....

We really need helmets for companions hate seeing 50 mirris at a dolmen.

kookie

I for one, am loving the new chapter, scribing, and the story line. I also love the new tribute deck. Necrom and Gold Road are such a vast improvement from the High Isle/Blackwood/Skyrim main chapter cringe storylines.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Also point out the fact the Vestige under there own power fights and overwhelms a Daedric Prince..

Yet this feat is entirely overlooked despite it being the single greatest feat of strength ever performed by a protagonist or a mortal in general, Ithilea is by no means weak according to the lore ZOS has presented to us and yet the Vestige is too much for her to handle, this would indicate the Vestige ever got into a scuffle with Molag Bal again they would not need the Amulet of Kings.

At this point they are probably the strongest protagonist and that list includes the Ascended Champion of Cyrodiil, if they can beat Ithelia they can probably beat Sheogorath.

Czeri

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Also point out the fact the Vestige under there own power fights and overwhelms a Daedric Prince..

Yet this feat is entirely overlooked despite it being the single greatest feat of strength ever performed by a protagonist or a mortal in general, Ithilea is by no means weak according to the lore ZOS has presented to us and yet the Vestige is too much for her to handle, this would indicate the Vestige ever got into a scuffle with Molag Bal again they would not need the Amulet of Kings.

At this point they are probably the strongest protagonist and that list includes the Ascended Champion of Cyrodiil, if they can beat Ithelia they can probably beat Sheogorath.

Well. one could argue that the Vestige didn't so much defeat her as used an opportune moment to show her a mirror. Sure it looked like her health bar went down in order to achieve that, but so many enemies regenerate health during fights that it's a pretty meaningless indicator...

shadyjane62

FelisCatus wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Khajiit thinks they orchestrated this so that she can show up as just a wandering lost waif who will become a potential companion in 2nd half

Well, if that's the case, they REALLY will get slammed with players insisting on helmets for companions....

We really need helmets for companions hate seeing 50 mirris at a dolmen.

I hate seeing just one of her anywhere. She killed companions for she was so annoying.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Czeri wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Also point out the fact the Vestige under there own power fights and overwhelms a Daedric Prince..

Yet this feat is entirely overlooked despite it being the single greatest feat of strength ever performed by a protagonist or a mortal in general, Ithilea is by no means weak according to the lore ZOS has presented to us and yet the Vestige is too much for her to handle, this would indicate the Vestige ever got into a scuffle with Molag Bal again they would not need the Amulet of Kings.

At this point they are probably the strongest protagonist and that list includes the Ascended Champion of Cyrodiil, if they can beat Ithelia they can probably beat Sheogorath.

Well. one could argue that the Vestige didn't so much defeat her as used an opportune moment to show her a mirror. Sure it looked like her health bar went down in order to achieve that, but so many enemies regenerate health during fights that it's a pretty meaningless indicator...

Except she ends up on the ground and cowers and says she was beaten.

deGarcia

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Also point out the fact the Vestige under there own power fights and overwhelms a Daedric Prince...

A lot of it really comes down to weird need of a script to show how good the player is at saving the world and a climactic fight before the ending. She could erase\banish Vestige or anyone else on a whim, just like Vargas did, so making a boss fight happen in the first place is already a questionable idea, but most likely something that was demanded. Story convenience is very common in games, sometimes too much.
Same thing happened in Necrom too, with another Prince - you fight until X point and then you overwhelm the boss with a story mechanic. It's possible to pick a remedy explanation for your own character, but I doubt we'll ever get away from this trope now, not until there are no more new ESO chapters.

MarioSMB

The only enjoyable part of the story was the brief time spent with Ithelia herself, the rest was very sub-standard fetch quests and repetitive fights.

I think I can speak for most of us when I say we wanted more of Ithelia.

Necrotech_Master

MarioSMB wrote: »

The only enjoyable part of the story was the brief time spent with Ithelia herself, the rest was very sub-standard fetch quests and repetitive fights.

I think I can speak for all of us when I say we wanted more of Ithelia.

im thinking along these lines too

there was not a lot actually delving into the background of mirrormoor, why the shardborn were doing what they were doing, or ithelia herself or why she was going "mad"

it felt like 90% of the story was just "defending the west weald from unknown daedric incursions and a plot by the wood elves to reclaim ayleid lands"

shadyjane62

MarioSMB wrote: »

The only enjoyable part of the story was the brief time spent with Ithelia herself, the rest was very sub-standard fetch quests and repetitive fights.

I think I can speak for all of us when I say we wanted more of Ithelia.

You don't speak for me. Worst char ever.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

I think the story was originally designed to be a (part of?) Meridia causing havoc as she tried to Mantle Magnus.

The Banishment at the end of (the part of?) Meridia was the completion of the Mantling - "walk like them until they walk like you". The being fated to wear Magnus's Mantle must always exit the universe.

The magic seems Meridian, the Mirrors seem Meridian (mirrors reflect light obviously), Meridia is called the Mirror of the Lie (while Ithelia's relic is the Mirror of Truth). I think even some of the voice lines are Meridian ("you cannot resist the prismatic invasion" or something like that). They even added the Bladesong of Boethia to the game, which has a moment where Meridia "divides herself" into a being of pure light and another being of prismatic glass to fight both Azura and Boethia at once, IIRC, so there is precedent in the "part of Meridia" thing. Meridia is also known for losing her temper/being wrathful or vengeful as much as she is merciful.

It would also be a cool fulfillment to Darien Gaultier's warning at the end of Summerset in the book.

Helping the "being of light" part of Meridia battle the "being of prisms and glass" part of Meridia would be cool - she does the split to Mantle Magnus fully, but one part of her becomes just as horrified/enraged at reality as Magnus was when he left the world and committed suicide...

I mean really.

deGarcia

MarioSMB wrote: »

The only enjoyable part of the story was the brief time spent with Ithelia herself

True. That time was also one of the most lore-filled, too.
The difference between Ithelia and non-Ithelia quests is incredibly obvious in 2nd or 3d story quest, where the quest itself branches into Outcast Inn and a fortress. You get an 1 hour quest (or so if you read all dialogues + ones not necessary to continue) with Ithelia and then 5 minutes of veeeery slow fort defense. It could almost be done with eyes closed, were it not for acquiring Abolisher at the end of it.

OtarTheMad

I am not surprised, when ZOS said during the Global Reveal that Bethesda helped them with Ithelia and her lore, kind of pointing it out more than in the past… I knew. Bethesda LOVES secrets and “mysteries” and keeping things mysterious … boring.

It was still a fun chapter and I love the huge leap with lore ZOS took with this but I just knew.