Not happy with the story ending (spoilers)

Arcturus

Why introduce a new Daedric Prince just to banish it instantly after? I know something like that had to be done at some point but I think it's way too soon right now.

LunaFlora

same here. it is weird to see her go so fast

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I wish I could say I was surprised they wrote her out but I wasn’t. 😕 I do admit when they’d started this story arc I thought we’d at least get Mirrormoor as a third DLC in the story before they got rid of her again.

If she ends up popular they’ll bring her back; they already established that the various versions of her have to visit each other, so it’s not impossible that a different version of her will drop in for Sage’s Dream ingredients and take her place. Or since someone (us and Mora) remember her, her spot in the mythic still exists and someone will mantle her. A non-zero part of me expects her to show up in Elder Scrolls 6, whenever that comes out.

Soarora

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

A non-zero part of me expects her to show up in Elder Scrolls 6, whenever that comes out.

SHE BETTER NOT! I have been hoping so strongly that we get more Jyggalag lore in TES6. He is out there, but what is he doing? We got nothing in Skyrim, so we need him back for TES6 in some way— his rebuilding followers, a messenger from Dysus, a statue, something that continues the lore on where he is and what he has become, for his story is not over. He is free now, but what has changed? He’s not taking over everything immediately with Order, so what gives?

If we get Ithelia instead, she’ll completely overshadow Jyggalag because as we see in Gold Road, Ithelia is copy Jyggalag but make it a little different so the teacher doesn’t catch on that you’re cheating.

Syldras

I have never expected anything else than that we'd ban her again at the end of the "story arc". It's just how ZOS writes their stories: Every chapter (+ Q4 story dlc when they still existed) starts with "one big problem" that we solve at the end of the chapter. There are no overlaps into other chapters and the world remains completely static. Which is a pity.

TaSheen

I'm not really interested in anything involving Jyggalag personally.... nor Sheo. Ugh to both.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Is there another "Party" that happens after this questline?

Even though that would make Zero Sense s no one but the player and Hermaeus Mora even remembers who Ithelia is, also wouldn't the Daedra at Mosiacs forget what they are doing?

EdjeSwift

If you didn't see this coming

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Is there another "Party" that happens after this questline?

Even though that would make Zero Sense s no one but the player and Hermaeus Mora even remembers who Ithelia is, also wouldn't the Daedra at Mosiacs forget what they are doing?

There is.. and it is actually referenced and remedied/explained.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Soarora wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

A non-zero part of me expects her to show up in Elder Scrolls 6, whenever that comes out.

SHE BETTER NOT! I have been hoping so strongly that we get more Jyggalag lore in TES6. He is out there, but what is he doing? We got nothing in Skyrim, so we need him back for TES6 in some way— his rebuilding followers, a messenger from Dysus, a statue, something that continues the lore on where he is and what he has become, for his story is not over. He is free now, but what has changed? He’s not taking over everything immediately with Order, so what gives?

If we get Ithelia instead, she’ll completely overshadow Jyggalag because as we see in Gold Road, Ithelia is copy Jyggalag but make it a little different so the teacher doesn’t catch on that you’re cheating.

Yeah if they ever have those two in the same room together they’re going to have some serious issues making the aesthetics different enough to tell their minions apart. If I didn’t know about Ithelia and I saw some of those mirror monsters in ES6 my first thought would be ‘Jygalag’s back!’…and I doubt all the single player fans are here playing in ESO. Add to that they’re both Daedric Princes that got ‘erased’ and the problem just gets worse.

TaSheen

The issue seems to be that instead of a "story arc" (like the daedric one - that is, morrowind/CWC/Summerset) they have decided to remove the year long system in favor of a much truncated two release system.

I am not impressed - and I think many others are not either. Now, I have to state that I did not like the early quite long story arc setup. I MUCH preferred the yearly setup. But I do realize I seem to be a minority.

Regardless, the fact really is they have reduced content and continue to charge a huge amount of money for that reduced content. Can I afford it? Of course. I bought the deluxe upgrade on 4 accounts (because I really wanted the raven pet - and then, having it.... I found it just flapsflapsflaps *SIGH*)

ZOS. You are on a very thin string with me at this point. I'm aware my 4 annual subs are chicken change to you.... but then again, I have a very large readership on other venues.

Think about it.

Is that a threat? Nope. It's actually a promise.

Belegnole

Personally I think Mora is the evil one. Absolutely hate the new story line and the way it feels forced.

Soarora

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

A non-zero part of me expects her to show up in Elder Scrolls 6, whenever that comes out.

SHE BETTER NOT! I have been hoping so strongly that we get more Jyggalag lore in TES6. He is out there, but what is he doing? We got nothing in Skyrim, so we need him back for TES6 in some way— his rebuilding followers, a messenger from Dysus, a statue, something that continues the lore on where he is and what he has become, for his story is not over. He is free now, but what has changed? He’s not taking over everything immediately with Order, so what gives?

If we get Ithelia instead, she’ll completely overshadow Jyggalag because as we see in Gold Road, Ithelia is copy Jyggalag but make it a little different so the teacher doesn’t catch on that you’re cheating.

Yeah if they ever have those two in the same room together they’re going to have some serious issues making the aesthetics different enough to tell their minions apart. If I didn’t know about Ithelia and I saw some of those mirror monsters in ES6 my first thought would be ‘Jygalag’s back!’…and I doubt all the single player fans are here playing in ESO. Add to that they’re both Daedric Princes that got ‘erased’ and the problem just gets worse.

Yeah, for sure. I knew people who insisted ESO wasn't good for the lore either, alienating the lore community by making Ithelia be a crossover from ESO into a real TES game doesn't sound like a very good idea. Instead of Ithelia, we could've gotten that a cult of Jyggalag was trying to resurface... after all, he wasn't forcefully forgotten. Or more fittingly for the 10 year anniversary, we could've had a story about another Magne-Ge coming to Tamriel and her relationship with Meridia and Mehrunes Dagon. I know there's a lorebook that implies Ithelia is one of Meridia's sisters, but it also implies she's the strongest. It isn't fair for Ithelia to overshadow Jygglag NOR Meridia, let alone both. If we needed to have Ithelia, I fairly quickly thought of a much better storyline that takes us through stories we've done before but in alternate paths with alternate endings... as a bonus this would be one way to get Darien back. I know ZOS teases us about him but I'm serious. Not every NPC is everyone's taste but the last NPC I really liked was Fennorian and the NPC who HAS the most depth without relying on lore from other games IS Darien. He is also the only NPC that the Vestige can relate to. If anyone would be, he is the epitome of 10 years of ESO.

Belegnole wrote: »

Personally I think Mora is the evil one. Absolutely hate the new story line and the way it feels forced.

And yes, ZOS tried so hard to be morally grey I didn't understand why we had to fight Ithelia until she was like "oops I'm irrationally evil" and "Daedric Princes don't change" to which my response was simply "so I'm taking a Daedric Prince to therapy?"...

deGarcia

Strongly agreed. The entire ending is like walking in circles of pointless arguing, and facts that has already been proven wrong directly before being thrown at you to shut you up, dare you raise an eyebrow.

This is a spoiler thread but I'll still cover most of my issues under the cut bc of the heavy ending spoilers.

1. It has been established directly that both times Ithelia went mad - she did so because of interference. First it was her anger over Mora even considering to attack her, then it was Vestige destroying the Loom. Do you mean to say that your every-5-minute mention of her being a threat is just you holding my hand through the story like a baby, least I get a different opinion?
Not even once does game show you something that she caused on purpose, all the troubles are CONSEQUENCES of her imprisonment or attempt of imprisonment. Yet the story still wants you to think she's evil unless when it doesn't.
2. The game says that different Ithelias are not choices, but consequences. Consequences... of what? If Daedra don't change as you say, why did she change not even in several universes, but same one during the entire story arc? If she can't change, she won't change regardless of conditions, she'd have to be the same in every instance. Yet she is different, and she can be reasoned with through Mirror of Truth. She can be shown what's wrong, but once this possibility is no longer helpful to the script, it's a ''nah can't change'' all over again. I can understand that Dagon won't stop destroying Nirn because it's his point of existence, for example, but that's not the point of existence to Ithelia. She doesn't even have full control of the Many Paths, which is also clearly established.
In the end, what Ithelia gets for saving the world and doing nothing else, is eon-years long imprisonment and Mora's constant reminders of her being evil. When she clearly isn't, as she's shown to care and able to fix her mistakes.

It's painful to see how the story treats you like a toddler who needs to be told an opinion you should follow, and it's painful to see how a very well-writen, interesting character (mind you, her connection to Magne-Ge was never even explained further, same as why she feels that Vestige is familiar) is thrown away. The question is - why? Being scared of big changes in a franchise that's several decades old? Didn't seem to stop the story from introducing randomly awaken bosmer who claim to be the legacy of Ayleid and other similar stuff in previous years.
I really can't see at least one reason why they coudn't keep Ithelia. Keep her or not, there will always be someone displeased, but it could at least impact the story. For now ESO is just stagnating in local zones, never going further than bringing something up and then discarding it with no information provided.

Despite Ithelia's model reception, I was hoping till the last moment that she can stay, it's the 10th anniversary after all, that could be something big! Her voice actress did an amazing job, she doesn't feel like she doesn't fit (Meridia is just a breton angel and they're both Magne-Ge, her simple humanoid design is called for), and it was such an amazing feeling to actually have long conversations with a Daedric Prince.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

I was wondering why they didn’t drag in Sotha Sil and have her sign a Coldharbour Compact equivalent like most of the other Princes have. Something along the lines of ‘I, Ithelia, agree not to destroy reality and not to interfere with Nirn directly unless explicitly summoned. In return I get to not be imprisoned and erased from all memory.’ Since mucking around with the past started ripping reality apart, that would put a distinct limit on how much of that she can do, so it puts a cap on her without erasing her.

Really, anything except pretending the whole thing didn’t happen with no consequences. (And no, Leramil owing Mora a favor doesn’t count. We still haven’t gotten a continuation of Vile coming to collect after Summerset…)

Yamenstein

TaSheen wrote: »

The issue seems to be that instead of a "story arc" (like the daedric one - that is, morrowind/CWC/Summerset) they have decided to remove the year long system in favor of a much truncated two release system.

I am not impressed - and I think many others are not either. Now, I have to state that I did not like the early quite long story arc setup. I MUCH preferred the yearly setup. But I do realize I seem to be a minority.

Regardless, the fact really is they have reduced content and continue to charge a huge amount of money for that reduced content. Can I afford it? Of course. I bought the deluxe upgrade on 4 accounts (because I really wanted the raven pet - and then, having it.... I found it just flapsflapsflaps *SIGH*)

ZOS. You are on a very thin string with me at this point. I'm aware my 4 annual subs are chicken change to you.... but then again, I have a very large readership on other venues.

Think about it.

Is that a threat? Nope. It's actually a promise.

ZoS don't care. They laughing to the bank with your money at this point.
Edit:
Most changes they have worked on recently have been half baked. They make changes based on improving performance but instead of adding to their infrastructure they remove things. Spend the money you are making off us players to improve the game on top of making profits.

Your business goals are prioritized over your goals on improving the game and it's starting to show!

OgrimTitan

This is exactly what I was saying during PTS (spoilers, obviously): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8101389#Comment_8101389

deGarcia

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Really, anything except pretending the whole thing didn’t happen with no consequences. (And no, Leramil owing Mora a favor doesn’t count. We still haven’t gotten a continuation of Vile coming to collect after Summerset…)

This! I was reluctant to do the epilogue quest and I genuienly regret reading through it after my initial reply to this thread. The game establishes that a character died by being completely erased from this reality, yet somehow they bring him back despite Mora not having actual lore-wise supported strength to do so (unless he consumed Ithelia's powers). The question rises, though, why is it okay then for Mora or Leramil to change reality to their whim, but not Ithelia? Sure the scope is different, but you're crossing the line of ''one change brings another'' which is what made Mora act back in Merethic Era.
If this is not an elaborate plot to show that Mora did do all of this just to get rid of Ithelia not because she was an actual threat.. I don't know. Would make sense - the moment she steps through a portal, Mora stops acting neutrally-respectful towards you and several time even 'mocks' you by asking if you have second thoughts about the decision you didn't really make, but was forced on by him. It's hard to pin this on the casual Daedric behaviour of 'I only care for as long as you're useful' because we were still bound by contract by that point.

We already had a huge ''an entire city died? no problem!'' resurrection party back at Markarth which invalided all the possible meaningful damage the evil or morally grey characters can do to be shown an actual threat. Why should I, the player, care about anything at that point, if no sacrifice has meaning, because everyone get to be ressurected BUT the ''baddie'' of the story? Who, in this case, never really did anything bad directly or on concious purpose.

Tornaad

Arcturus wrote: »

Why introduce a new Daedric Prince just to banish it instantly after? I know something like that had to be done at some point but I think it's way too soon right now.

The moment they introduced the idea of a brand new Daedric Prince, I knew something would have to happen to it because the Prince was not around in any of the main games which all came afterwards chronologically.

deGarcia

Tornaad wrote: »

The moment they introduced the idea of a brand new Daedric Prince, I knew something would have to happen to it because the Prince was not around in any of the main games which all came afterwards chronologically.

The fact that this is obvious, though, is a bad thing. This franchise is several decades old and clinging so hard on the idea of ''well it's not present in a game that came out 13 years ago'' is a part of the stagnation problem. There will always be people who react negatively to changes, but it doesn't seem to stop ZOS from re-working gameplay stuff or adding Ayleid heritage to Bosmer, way too high Breton influence on All Flags Fleet, an idea that vampires can have other food sources than blood, etc etc. These are arguably smaller things, but they change the picture too, they're relevant to the world-building.
Ithelia could be made mortal even, she could be sworn to keep a passive lifestyle just like Mora does (mostly), there are quite a few options that I'm sure could be written into the story to explain her further chronological absence, but they weren't.
Not a jab at OP!! Just further small rant on the subject.

Necrotech_Master

i would have to agree that the epilogue portion of the story (the final 3 quests) seemed to be a little...rushed?

the way that it felt to me was we were on episode 2 of a 5-10 episode tv show

episode 1 was hype and introduction of a new entity, and episode 2 is basically killing them off

in fact i almost feel sorry for the voice actor who played ithelia if this was her entire "screen time"

BetweenMidgets

I don't care if it is a year long story or a multi-year story... but write it well! Maybe that isn't in the budget, either.

MarioSMB

I know this is an MMO but the lack of stakes were just painful this time - you literally wrap it all up with nothing having changed, and now we're getting merch for a prince that once again no longer exists...

Have to agree with others, the decision to just banish her and dispose of the McGuffins that freed/enslaved her was the laziest and most short-sighted way they could've dealt with having to incorporate her into future lore.
Would've loved to have seen her remain as a background protector/maintainer of Fargrave, which is now seen as a neutral place of paths. Or just... something other than "welp, time to make everyone forget again because lore".


P.S. A woman Daedric Prince that has uncontrollable mood swings? Really?

I_killed_Vivec

TaSheen wrote: »

The issue seems to be that instead of a "story arc" (like the daedric one - that is, morrowind/CWC/Summerset) they have decided to remove the year long system in favor of a much truncated two release system.

I am not impressed - and I think many others are not either. Now, I have to state that I did not like the early quite long story arc setup. I MUCH preferred the yearly setup. But I do realize I seem to be a minority.

Regardless, the fact really is they have reduced content and continue to charge a huge amount of money for that reduced content. Can I afford it? Of course. I bought the deluxe upgrade on 4 accounts (because I really wanted the raven pet - and then, having it.... I found it just flapsflapsflaps *SIGH*)

ZOS. You are on a very thin string with me at this point. I'm aware my 4 annual subs are chicken change to you.... but then again, I have a very large readership on other venues.

Think about it.

Is that a threat? Nope. It's actually a promise.

Zoiks! I might know someone* who might have been threatened with a ban** for merely suggesting that the (seemingly now permanent) Q3 substitution of "QoL" for DLC was a rip off for ESO+ subscribers!

* Me
** I was

Drammanoth

Well, better to be banished than to be turned into a gibbering lunatic, eh?

Though Jiggy was more dangerous than the rest of the Princes

FelisCatus

Arcturus wrote: »

Why introduce a new Daedric Prince just to banish it instantly after? I know something like that had to be done at some point but I think it's way too soon right now.

She has no place in the lore, she's half-baked and is just a mix of various other princes. Visually doesn't fit the game's aesthetic. I'm glad she's gone because I never wanted her in the first place. Plus it was stupid trying to add something so catastrophic to the lore that would not of been mentioned in past games. Also very lazy to say "oh yup mora cast a universal forget spell on everyone except this one dude"

I had already mentioned here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650633/not-happy-with-the-new-daedric-prince/p1

deGarcia

FelisCatus wrote: »

She has no place in the lore

A'ight, but that's zero specifics.
1. Why does she not fit? She's one of the Magne-Ge, daughters of Magnus, who were forged and not born biologically. Her being the first (and Meridia second, who to some capacity controls time) makes a good sense of why she has connection to Many Paths of Mundus, her 'father' was it's actual architect. ZOS took an already existing concept and expanded it, and, if I remember correctly, it was established\mentioned before that there are more Daedric Princes who existed than we know from base games (can't provide proof word-to-word so it's just my word for it). I suppose good example is Jyggalag, who didn't return in Skyrim, but did exist in Oblivion.
2. What are the design issues? Meridia is a very basic Breton angel woman with little to none details, Nocturnal is a Redguard woman in a way too fitting dress with also little to no details. I'm mentioning this in case if it's about simplicity of it.
3. The games are more than decades old by now. Adding a Daedra that could be lore-wise 'dethroned' without exile woudn't make such a big impact, but I personally stick to opinion that the universe has to develop instead of staying on the level of information from, say, Arena.

FelisCatus

deGarcia wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

She has no place in the lore

A'ight, but that's zero specifics.
1. Why does she not fit? She's one of the Magne-Ge, daughters of Magnus, who were forged and not born biologically. Her being the first (and Meridia second, who to some capacity controls time) makes a good sense of why she has connection to Many Paths of Mundus, her 'father' was it's actual architect. ZOS took an already existing concept and expanded it, and, if I remember correctly, it was established\mentioned before that there are more Daedric Princes who existed than we know from base games (can't provide proof word-to-word so it's just my word for it). I suppose good example is Jyggalag, who didn't return in Skyrim, but did exist in Oblivion.
2. What are the design issues? Meridia is a very basic Breton angel woman with little to none details, Nocturnal is a Redguard woman in a way too fitting dress with also little to no details. I'm mentioning this in case if it's about simplicity of it.
3. The games are more than decades old by now. Adding a Daedra that could be lore-wise 'dethroned' without exile woudn't make such a big impact, but I personally stick to opinion that the universe has to develop instead of staying on the level of information from, say, Arena.

1) Mora is the prince of Fate (as well as many other things) Ithelia is the Fate-Changer. Odd considering that should fall under Mora's domain if anyone. Doubly odd as every daedric prince, hell even most npcs have the ability as well as player character be a fate-changer. She is just a slightly different version of Mora which is the same case for Mephala and Boethiah. She is ultimately redundant and doesn't add anything new or interesting except her glass crystal reskinned daedra.

2) Have you not seen her in game graphics? They look like someone has ported in a model from another game such as second life. I think you got those mixed up. Nocturnal is more Breton in appearance, and Ithelia is more Redguard in appearance.

3) I'm okay with ESO changing the lore or adding to it as they constantly do as is the nature of a live service game set in the past. However, adding a new daedric prince is far too crazy and out there for me. Too big of a change, I really wonder what happened to their so called loremaster making sure everything is cohesive across timelines because this isn't. I'm a big lore nerd and when the lore is twisted and changed because of some creative vision for representation. Not to mention, the writing is flat out bad and very obvious. I will of course take issue with it.

deGarcia

FelisCatus wrote: »

1) Mora is the prince of Fate (as well as many other things) Ithelia is the Fate-Changer. Odd considering that should fall under Mora's domain if anyone. Doubly odd as every daedric prince, hell even most npcs have the ability as well as player character be a fate-changer. She is just a slightly different version of Mora which is the same case for Mephala and Boethiah. She is ultimately redundant and doesn't add anything new or interesting except her glass crystal reskinned daedra.
2) Have you not seen her in game graphics? They look like someone has ported in a model from another game such as second life. I think you got those mixed up. Nocturnal is more Breton in appearance, and Ithelia is more Redguard in appearance.
3) I'm okay with ESO changing the lore or adding to it as they constantly do as is the nature of a live service game set in the past. However, adding a new daedric prince is far too crazy and out there for me. Too big of a change, I really wonder what happened to their so called loremaster making sure everything is cohesive across timelines because this isn't. I'm a big lore nerd and when the lore is twisted and changed because of some creative vision for representation. Not to mention, the writing is flat out bad and very obvious. I will of course take issue with it.

1. She did have potential to bring more if they actually talked about the lore they expanded aside from one book - her being Magne-Ge and her connections to Meridia. That's more of what-if's, of course, so to another point - I don't think they fall unto each other's domain that significantly because Mora directly states that he can see possible futures (and only some of them), but he can't alter them whatever he does. Ithelia, however, brings a concept of Many Paths, to which she is connected to, and has limited control of. Mora himself is more about collecting knowledge, future variants included, than tampering with fate unless required (even if he does, he needs to do it through someone else). Ithelia, on the other hand, is directly tied to it. Boethiah and Mephala, whom you mentioned, are also similar to a degree, but they're the base game knowledge we don't question, so I don't see why we should question Ithelia and Mora.
Ability to alter fate of a Prince and of a mortal are different, and it's stated by Ithelia herself. Mora can't change fate of anything (hence why hired Vestige to the rescue), a mortal can change fate of something within their realm, but Ithelia can merge\control all the other realms.
What Ithelia brings into is actual alternative universes that can be travelled between, or opened gates to (something something WW trial).
2. That's a model problem though, not design problem. As someone mentioned in another topic, Ithelia has a built-from-scratch model and I agree that it has it's issues. My bad if I interpreted your words as design. About Nocturnal - she uses Redguard model in Summerset (she can pick any, but it's what comes to mind quicker).
3. I don't see any representation being pushed in, though? This point is something very subjective to us (of bringing big changes to the lore), I suppose, but she doesn't break anything. There isn't a rule that there are only those Daedra that have been present before in base games.

The rushed writing that treats you like a baby is something I agree on, tho. All the plot twists are obvious and sometimes heavily red-flagged.

Soarora

FelisCatus wrote: »

She is ultimately redundant and doesn't add anything new or interesting except her glass crystal reskinned daedra.

Her glass crystal reskinned Daedra who look very similar to Jyggalag's *checks notes* silver crystal Daedra. What's the difference between mirror shards and silver crystals? That Ithelia's mirrors (sometimes) have color and Jyggalag's silver is just grey? Wait, how are mirrors made again? Oh, buy applying silver to glass? Gee...

deGarcia wrote: »

1. She did have potential to bring more if they actually talked about the lore they expanded aside from one book - her being Magne-Ge and her connections to Meridia.

And that's another thing, we get Jyggalag's aesthetic applied to a new sister of Meridia and no mention of Jyggalag nor Meridia anywhere. Insult to injury is the implications that Ithelia is a more powerful Magne-Ge than Meridia is. Why does this new Prince have to overshadow so many others? I get that spheres overlap all the time but Ithelia is flat out Jyggalag and Meridia's stories combined with a Hermaeus Mora cherry on top.

dinokstrunz

She came in quickly and left just as fast lmao. What a lame character

I hope they don't try to cement that multiverse cringe bore trope. It's not cool anymore and hopefully never will be again.

deGarcia

Soarora wrote: »

Jyggalag's aesthetic applied to a new sister of Meridia and no mention of Jyggalag nor Meridia anywhere.

Honestly I don't think that this is how it works. She was given a winged design to bear resemblance with Meridia, and her entire theme is glass-centered. She herself, as one Ithelia says, breaks like glass, you're using a glass mirror against her, etc etc, so the obvious choice was incorporating it into the wings. As someone who lives by making character designs, I don't see any problem here or resemblence to Jyggalag..? Mephala also has crystals in Skein and her furnishing packs.