A major conceptual problem with indrik's challenges

MreeBiPolar · June 4

When you are given the test of power, you need to choose two out of four, and the indrik goes AT LENGTH about how they should be only be what you CHOOSE to do, and not in any way forced onto you.

The problem is, one of those is kill 15 undead, which happens unintentionally (and is hard to avoid) when you do two others, kill a delve boss -- a few of Auridon delves are populated by undead, including the bosses per se, and while you caaaaaan avoid killing enough of them, the dolmen can spawn rather excessive number of those.

Also, if you are grouped up, kills by other players count, too.

It wouldn't have been much of an issue if, again, the indrik didn't repeatedly tell you how you should be able to choose which challenges you do, not have them forced onto you.

TaSheen · June 4

So if you kill MORE than specified, you fail?

Elvenheart · June 4

I for one I’m glad that some of the tasks can stack, and I purposely look for the ones that I can knock out two of them by only doing one thing 🙂

Edit to add: it’s not that I don’t like the quest chains or anything, I’m actually quite enjoying them. But in 10 years I’ve done so many quests (Including alts here) that I always appreciate a shortcut through the “busy work.”

MreeBiPolar · June 4

TaSheen wrote: »

So if you kill MORE than specified, you fail?

At least, it's not like endeavors where you tick a wrong one and get locked out of the increased reward 🤣

amig186 · June 4

It makes no difference which ones you do, they're just boxes to tick to get the sigil. It's not an issue at all. Going out of your way to avoid an easy one in favour of a more tedious one is insanity when the result is exactly the same regardless.

MreeBiPolar · June 4

amig186 wrote: »

It makes no difference which ones you do, they're just boxes to tick to get the sigil. It's not an issue at all. Going out of your way to avoid an easy one in favour of a more tedious one is insanity when the result is exactly the same regardless.

That's why I said it's a *conceptual* problem, with the way the indrik *talks* about it, NOT the mechanical or anything. Totally messed up, you can say, lore-wise.

amig186 · June 4

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

It makes no difference which ones you do, they're just boxes to tick to get the sigil. It's not an issue at all. Going out of your way to avoid an easy one in favour of a more tedious one is insanity when the result is exactly the same regardless.

That's why I said it's a *conceptual* problem, with the way the indrik *talks* about it, NOT the mechanical or anything. Totally messed up, you can say, lore-wise.

I don't really agree, calling it a problem or an issue implies it has a negative effect on something, which it doesn't. A small discrepancy at worst. You still choose your challenge, you just might get 2 for 1 without trying. In my case I killed the boss of the spider delve, because it was closest, and then still had to do a dolmen, which only had 10 of the required 15 undead. Maybe I just can't see it the same way.

Soarora · June 4

I had to kill the undead on purpose, just so happened to be in the same delve I chose.

MreeBiPolar · June 5

amig186 wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

It makes no difference which ones you do, they're just boxes to tick to get the sigil. It's not an issue at all. Going out of your way to avoid an easy one in favour of a more tedious one is insanity when the result is exactly the same regardless.

That's why I said it's a *conceptual* problem, with the way the indrik *talks* about it, NOT the mechanical or anything. Totally messed up, you can say, lore-wise.

I don't really agree, calling it a problem or an issue implies it has a negative effect on something, which it doesn't. A small discrepancy at worst. You still choose your challenge, you just might get 2 for 1 without trying. In my case I killed the boss of the spider delve, because it was closest, and then still had to do a dolmen, which only had 10 of the required 15 undead. Maybe I just can't see it the same way.

It is a problem immersion, plot and lore-wise. Nothing mechanical, but I guess some people just don't care about that one bit. There are those who do though.

EdjeSwift · June 5

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

When you are given the test of power, you need to choose two out of four, and the indrik goes AT LENGTH about how they should be only be what you CHOOSE to do, and not in any way forced onto you.

The problem is, one of those is kill 15 undead, which happens unintentionally (and is hard to avoid) when you do two others, kill a delve boss -- a few of Auridon delves are populated by undead, including the bosses per se, and while you caaaaaan avoid killing enough of them, the dolmen can spawn rather excessive number of those.

Also, if you are grouped up, kills by other players count, too.

It wouldn't have been much of an issue if, again, the indrik didn't repeatedly tell you how you should be able to choose which challenges you do, not have them forced onto you.

I see no issue conceptually, you make the choice to do what you do.

I truly fail to see how any of these things you're listing aren't a choice.

You're choosing to kill the undead by hitting them.
You're choosing to do a delve with undead in them.
You're choosing to group with people who are killing the undead.
You're choosing to kill a dolmen with undead(Not all of them have them).

Again, these are all YOUR choices, I fail to see how anything is being forced upon you.

Syldras · June 5

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

When you are given the test of power, you need to choose two out of four, and the indrik goes AT LENGTH about how they should be only be what you CHOOSE to do, and not in any way forced onto you.
The problem is, one of those is kill 15 undead, which happens unintentionally (and is hard to avoid) when you do two others, kill a delve boss -- a few of Auridon delves are populated by undead, including the bosses per se, and while you caaaaaan avoid killing enough of them, the dolmen can spawn rather excessive number of those.

I understand your issue and agree that it's a bit unfortunate, roleplay-wise (although I think there are many more severe problems that ZOS should take care of first). What would be the solution you wish for? Altering the quest objectives so there's no big overlap?

Jaraal · June 5

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

It makes no difference which ones you do, they're just boxes to tick to get the sigil. It's not an issue at all. Going out of your way to avoid an easy one in favour of a more tedious one is insanity when the result is exactly the same regardless.

That's why I said it's a *conceptual* problem, with the way the indrik *talks* about it, NOT the mechanical or anything. Totally messed up, you can say, lore-wise.

Well to be fair, I had issues with the last part of the dragon story arc. The finale made little sense to me.

Syldras · June 5

Talking about logic: Where did the parts for the first spell we create right at the beginning of the questline come from?

Jaraal · June 6

Syldras wrote: »

Talking about logic: Where did the parts for the first spell we create right at the beginning of the questline come from?

Consider who is directing you at that point.

Also, we are The Dragonborn, the Savior of Nirn, renowned adventurer of great powers. Considering how we've been casting magic comets and supernovas and whatnot for years, it should be within the reasonable realm of possibility.

Syldras · June 6

Jaraal wrote: »

Consider who is directing you at that point.

Also, we are The Dragonborn, the Savior of Nirn, renowned adventurer of great powers. Considering how we've been casting magic comets and supernovas and whatnot for years, it should be within the reasonable realm of possibility.

We aren't given those parts by anyone, though.

And if we made them up ourselves, why would we need to find or buy them in future?

And why did my main create such a boring spell if he had any choice? He would have probably rather designed one that forces enemies to dance and sing, while suffering from horrible alopecia, while burning to death (all cast in a beautiful ethereal blue light).

EdjeSwift · June 6

Syldras wrote: »

Talking about logic: Where did the parts for the first spell we create right at the beginning of the questline come from?

I like to think that they got left in the machine and we pulled them out.

Jaimeh · June 6

e

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

When you are given the test of power, you need to choose two out of four, and the indrik goes AT LENGTH about how they should be only be what you CHOOSE to do, and not in any way forced onto you.

The problem is, one of those is kill 15 undead, which happens unintentionally (and is hard to avoid) when you do two others, kill a delve boss -- a few of Auridon delves are populated by undead, including the bosses per se, and while you caaaaaan avoid killing enough of them, the dolmen can spawn rather excessive number of those.

Also, if you are grouped up, kills by other players count, too.

It wouldn't have been much of an issue if, again, the indrik didn't repeatedly tell you how you should be able to choose which challenges you do, not have them forced onto you.

It's because the writers had to put in there somewhere the fact that you don't have to do all the activities in the list, hence why the Indrik, who is the first quest in a series of quests with that choice parameter, emphasizes this. Also, in the game we are supposed to be acting alone so the group thing RPwise doesn't count. Plus, you can rationalize it thus: you chose to do something but along the way unforeseen things happen incidentally and muddled your choices, but in the beginning they were still your choices.

valenwood_vegan · June 6

In addition to all that's been said already, just keep in mind too that ESO is a MMORPG... sometimes the MMO part must bend to the RPG part and sometimes the RPG must bend to the MMO part.

And ultimately, if it's *that* important... it's still your choice. Buy some invisibility pots and avoid attacking any undead. Idk. There are so many bigger issues with the game than this. Imo.

MreeBiPolar · June 6

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

In addition to all that's been said already, just keep in mind too that ESO is a MMORPG... sometimes the MMO part must bend to the RPG part and sometimes the RPG must bend to the MMO part.

And ultimately, if it's *that* important... it's still your choice. Buy some invisibility pots and avoid attacking any undead. Idk. There are so many bigger issues with the game than this. Imo.

I see your point. "Smaller problems don't count until all the bigger are dealt with, and writing quality takes the absolute backseat."

Syldras · June 6

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

I see your point. "Smaller problems don't count until all the bigger are dealt with, and writing quality takes the absolute backseat."

I'm not the user you quoted, but I'd still like to reply:

I criticize the writing all the time, because it is important for me. Cases of plot holes, lore and logic mistakes, cliché characters, silly innuendo, the need to ask extremely stupid questions in dialogues (which could be avoided by just wording the questions differently, as many users have already remarked) - I do address these things.

And as I said, I also see how rp-wise, the overlaps in the Indrik's tasks are unfortunate.

But compared with some other problems, it's still rather minor while changing it would require relatively high efforts. They wouldn't only have to think of alternative tasks, they would also have to rewrite all dialogue about it and record the new lines with the original voice actor (who might not even be available in the near future).

MreeBiPolar · June 6

Syldras wrote: »

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

I see your point. "Smaller problems don't count until all the bigger are dealt with, and writing quality takes the absolute backseat."

I'm not the user you quoted, but I'd still like to reply:

I criticize the writing all the time, because it is important for me. Cases of plot holes, lore and logic mistakes, cliché characters, silly innuendo, the need to ask extremely stupid questions in dialogues (which could be avoided by just wording the questions differently, as many users have already remarked) - I do address these things.

And as I said, I also see how rp-wise, the overlaps in the Indrik's tasks are unfortunate.

But compared with some other problems, it's still rather minor while changing it would require relatively high efforts. They wouldn't only have to think of alternative tasks, they would also have to rewrite all dialogue about it and record the new lines with the original voice actor (who might not even be available in the near future).

Yeah, unfortunately, that's the problem with a lot of things not done well the first time...

Aurielle · June 6

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

amig186 wrote: »

It makes no difference which ones you do, they're just boxes to tick to get the sigil. It's not an issue at all. Going out of your way to avoid an easy one in favour of a more tedious one is insanity when the result is exactly the same regardless.

That's why I said it's a *conceptual* problem, with the way the indrik *talks* about it, NOT the mechanical or anything. Totally messed up, you can say, lore-wise.

I personally didn’t read the quest dialogue after a certain point, because the scribing quests are so dull…

Syldras · June 6

Aurielle wrote: »

I personally didn’t read the quest dialogue after a certain point, because the scribing quests are so dull…

That's everyone's personal decision. I personally find the dialogues (and lorebooks) around this questline to be of a higher writing quality than what we got in the past few years. It's a pity though, and there I agree with you, that the quests are extremely repetative.

valenwood_vegan · June 6

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

I see your point. "Smaller problems don't count until all the bigger are dealt with, and writing quality takes the absolute backseat."

That's not what I said at all, just trying to give a different perspective. Seems you also ignored about 75% of what I wrote. It doesn't really matter, you're free to get riled up over any issue that it's important to you, though imo doing so about every flaw in the writing is going to lead to a lot of frustration.

I do generally wish a LOT of the writing was better and that the quests offered meaningful choices with consequences... but I try not to get too caught up in it and focus on having fun with the game and using my imagination to overcome poor writing and shallow quest design. Like I said, sometimes RPG aspects of the game get sacrificed for the MMO aspects. It is what it is and I don't think it's gonna change after ten years.

Anyway, good luck with getting them to re-write the questline. Fortunately, I have nothing to do with the development of ESO so that's not up to me in any way.

[EDIT to add - I also just want to voice my agreement with what a couple others have said, that the major problem with these quests imo has more to do with the fact that they were made artificially longer than necessary just for the sake of being longer - the "find the things to get the keys to find the door to open the real door" and the "do my list of tasks" parts could easily have been cut in half and nothing would've been lost).

Aurielle · June 6

Syldras wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I personally didn’t read the quest dialogue after a certain point, because the scribing quests are so dull…

That's everyone's personal decision. I personally find the dialogues (and lorebooks) around this questline to be of a higher writing quality than what we got in the past few years. It's a pity though, and there I agree with you, that the quests are extremely repetative.

I enjoyed the “Nable of the Fetch” book, but that’s about it. The repetition was mind-numbing. There are far too many samey-samey tasks to complete for each quest, and they each follow the same boring, predictable pattern. It takes WAY too long. I usually try to read or listen to the dialogue the first time I do a quest on my main, but I eventually stopped caring about it because I wanted to make all the boring, repetitive tasks stop as quickly as possible.

Jaraal · June 6

Aurielle wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I personally didn’t read the quest dialogue after a certain point, because the scribing quests are so dull…

That's everyone's personal decision. I personally find the dialogues (and lorebooks) around this questline to be of a higher writing quality than what we got in the past few years. It's a pity though, and there I agree with you, that the quests are extremely repetative.

I enjoyed the “Nable of the Fetch” book, but that’s about it. The repetition was mind-numbing. There are far too many samey-samey tasks to complete for each quest, and they each follow the same boring, predictable pattern. It takes WAY too long. I usually try to read or listen to the dialogue the first time I do a quest on my main, but I eventually stopped caring about it because I wanted to make all the boring, repetitive tasks stop as quickly as possible.

Yeah, it would have been a lot more enjoyable if we only had to do one thing per zone to get a complete key instead of doing the same thing three times to combine three key fragments. It gives the sense of artificially prolonging the quest the way it is currently.

Aurielle · June 6

Jaraal wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

I personally didn’t read the quest dialogue after a certain point, because the scribing quests are so dull…

That's everyone's personal decision. I personally find the dialogues (and lorebooks) around this questline to be of a higher writing quality than what we got in the past few years. It's a pity though, and there I agree with you, that the quests are extremely repetative.

I enjoyed the “Nable of the Fetch” book, but that’s about it. The repetition was mind-numbing. There are far too many samey-samey tasks to complete for each quest, and they each follow the same boring, predictable pattern. It takes WAY too long. I usually try to read or listen to the dialogue the first time I do a quest on my main, but I eventually stopped caring about it because I wanted to make all the boring, repetitive tasks stop as quickly as possible.

Yeah, it would have been a lot more enjoyable if we only had to do one thing per zone to get a complete key instead of doing the same thing three times to combine three key fragments. It gives the sense of artificially prolonging the quest the way it is currently.

Exactly. It also has the effect of making the story in each quest feel forced and arbitrary, to the point where you don’t even want to read it anymore. I mean, what are the chances that EACH of these luminaries would need you to do three things at three different locations, followed by three more things at another three different locations, following the exact same predictable pattern each time? What, did they meet up to exchange notes ahead of time, or something? The stories and luminaries are all meant to be different, but they ultimately end up feeling the same because the quests are the same.

I have one more quest to do, and am looking forward to never doing any of them ever again — not even for the ink.

kynesgrove · June 6

Added to all that's been said:

Some of my characters are evil, or at the very least pragmatic neutral. The quests are VERY good aligned. Like too much in my opinion.

It was so sweet and goody good, it almost gave me diabetes. Where the main Mages Guild quest at least gives you the option to doom Valaste to eternal madness for some skill points.

(Just wanted to add a bit about the tone of the quests besides their mechanical nature)

Elsonso · June 6

MreeBiPolar wrote: »

When you are given the test of power, you need to choose two out of four, and the indrik goes AT LENGTH about how they should be only be what you CHOOSE to do, and not in any way forced onto you.

The problem is, one of those is kill 15 undead, which happens unintentionally (and is hard to avoid) when you do two others, kill a delve boss -- a few of Auridon delves are populated by undead, including the bosses per se, and while you caaaaaan avoid killing enough of them, the dolmen can spawn rather excessive number of those.

Also, if you are grouped up, kills by other players count, too.

It wouldn't have been much of an issue if, again, the indrik didn't repeatedly tell you how you should be able to choose which challenges you do, not have them forced onto you.

I don't see that as the major conceptual problem with those quests.

The first conceptual problem is that the first two phases of the quest feel like they were stapled on later in development. In the first phase, we do the 10-step (3 x 3 + 1) quest to find the magical door so we can use the real door that we already found. This feels contrived. It lengthens the quest. They said in the feedback thread that we have to remember that these quests unlock account-wide abilities and need to be longer. No, they do not. Seriously. They do not.

The next conceptual problem is the "Daily Endeavor" part, where we pick from different endeavors out in the game and go off and do a task that really has no larger meaning in the context of the quest. Again, makes the quest line longer. We are not finding something of value for later. We are begging for approval at the hands of someone who wants us to "wash their car" or "pick up their laundry" for them. This is a conceptual problem, not because the endeavors can overlap or be done by groups, but because we are doing them in the first place. This part of these quest lines should be dropped entirely. They are noise. Irrelevant. Busy work. Unrelated to the task at hand, no matter how they try to fix that in dialog. Even if these Beings were that petty and like to do this sort of thing for whatever amusement they get out of it, ZOS could have taken a path that felt like it had meaning.

The last part, the actual trial for approval, is a proper idea. It is the only one that actually feels like something with purpose. Standard ESO quest strategy. Not too difficult, and if it weren't for the "Daily Endeavors" and "Find my Door", would be perfectly reasonable. Remember to consider how many times this basic quest line needs to be repeated to unlock all of the doors. Given the larger scope, it is the only part of the whole quest line that makes sense. Here, we are not finding a door we already found and we are not doing irrelevant mundane chores for them, either. We are doing a targeted task for that Being.

While I am here, we spend a lot of time going through doors in the Scholarium that don't need to be there. If there is a technical reason why they are there, they need better tech or need to rethink their need for that tech.

Syldras · June 6

kynesgrove wrote: »

Some of my characters are evil, or at the very least pragmatic neutral. The quests are VERY good aligned. Like too much in my opinion.
It was so sweet and goody good, it almost gave me diabetes.

Just play along and do the goody-good stuff to get full access to the scribing altar's powers. It's not like they know your true motives anyway.

Signed,
the friendly Telvanni Master next door who has other things in mind than helping the Mages Guild

Aurielle · June 6

kynesgrove wrote: »

Added to all that's been said:

Some of my characters are evil, or at the very least pragmatic neutral. The quests are VERY good aligned. Like too much in my opinion.

It was so sweet and goody good, it almost gave me diabetes. Where the main Mages Guild quest at least gives you the option to doom Valaste to eternal madness for some skill points.

(Just wanted to add a bit about the tone of the quests besides their mechanical nature)

This is a big part of the reason why I personally have a problem with most MMORPG quests (including this one’s). Choices are limited or non-existent, which affects both the original playthrough as well as subsequent playthroughs — a problem, given that MMORPGs encourage the use of alts. Do a quest on one character, and it’s usually exactly the same with the same outcomes on another character. So. Utterly. Boring. When I’m forced to repeat quests on my alts for skill points, I just click past the quest dialogue as fast as possible, because I’ve already read it on my main. If there were more choices you could make to suit the vision you have in your head for the character you’re currently playing, it would be so much better.

And you’re correct, the scribing quests are sickly sweet, cutesy wootsy. The thought of my edgelord necromancer running through them is laughable. Luckily, my main is a Templar and very good-aligned, and I plan on completely avoiding the scribing quests on my alts, because they’re so utterly boring.