Cloaks?

Maitsukas

If ESO doesn't even have ragdoll physics, then what's the point in cloaks/capes?

BetweenMidgets

There is some costume that has a cloak on it, and it looks so abysmally bad that I laugh every time I see it. I think it is the Breton Hero Armor? Looks cool from the angle they show it in the Clown Store, but when you put the costume on and turn your toon around its just a straight abomination!

Elsonso

Amottica wrote: »

What changes have they made to the engine to allow them to do something that was a limitation of the engine since the game was launched?

I cannot think of anything I have seen or even heard of. It is one of the most complex and expensive things that can be done to a game. That is not a feeling.

I am not going to talk about the ESO engine in any detail, because I don't know any details.

If you think back to all of the technical things they have done since launch that the engines did not support, you can see changes along the way. FaceFX and Inverse Foot Kinetics come to mind as far as technical capabilities. Googling "FaceFX' reveals that it is a product, so that sounds like something that ZOS added to the client engine to allow that capability. Additionally, they did client performance changes a few years back that sound to me like engine upgrades. Things like "Multi-threaded Fixture Creation", "Physics Simulation Stability Improvements", and "Animation Set Caching". To me, these have that "custom engine code" feel to them, but they never said, and it is just a feeling.

Of course, adding capability to the engine is irrelevant if the game was not designed to use it. This game was ultimately not rigged to have capes with cloth physics, according to the senior technical artist at GDC (Game Developers Conference 2015). That is probably the bigger issue than whether the engine can support it or not.

Amottica

Elsonso wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

What changes have they made to the engine to allow them to do something that was a limitation of the engine since the game was launched?

I cannot think of anything I have seen or even heard of. It is one of the most complex and expensive things that can be done to a game. That is not a feeling.

I am not going to talk about the ESO engine in any detail, because I don't know any details.

If you think back to all of the technical things they have done since launch that the engines did not support, you can see changes along the way. FaceFX and Inverse Foot Kinetics come to mind as far as technical capabilities. Googling "FaceFX' reveals that it is a product, so that sounds like something that ZOS added to the client engine to allow that capability. Additionally, they did client performance changes a few years back that sound to me like engine upgrades. Things like "Multi-threaded Fixture Creation", "Physics Simulation Stability Improvements", and "Animation Set Caching". To me, these have that "custom engine code" feel to them, but they never said, and it is just a feeling.

Of course, adding capability to the engine is irrelevant if the game was not designed to use it. This game was ultimately not rigged to have capes with cloth physics, according to the senior technical artist at GDC (Game Developers Conference 2015). That is probably the bigger issue than whether the engine can support it or not.

None of those required changes to the engine. Sorry, but no. I think it would help to take the time to understand what the engine is compared to the server side (and especially client-side code). The changes being mentioned are changes to the regular code of the actual game, which is changed dozens of times a year.

Have a good day.

Cin_Vhetin

reazea wrote: »

We don't need cloaks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy2YhxXn7NY

I thought of this too, BUT ESO does not have any flying skills available which is how almost every cape disaster Edna lists occurs. So, in ESO, let there be CAPES! (edit: almost added)

UNLESS... ESO has flying as a skill up their sleeves.
I don't know how to set up a vote BUT -
Who wants Cloaks/Capes?
Who wants to fly?
Pick one.

TaSheen

Cin_Vhetin wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

We don't need cloaks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy2YhxXn7NY

I thought of this too, BUT ESO does not have any flying skills available which is how almost every cape disaster Edna lists occurs. So, in ESO, let there be CAPES! (edit: almost added)

UNLESS... ESO has flying as a skill up their sleeves.
I don't know how to set up a vote BUT -
Who wants Cloaks/Capes?
Who wants to fly?
Pick one.

Neither.

barney2525

TaSheen wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

It was an engine limitation to my knowledge.

I think the entire ESO player base would love the option & ability to wear cloaks, I just don’t know what advancements have been made with the engine towards that.

I also haven’t heard them comment on this in like forever. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I wouldn't. I've despised cloaks in any game where they've been available - including WoW.

That’s ok, don’t use it then 👍🏻 that’s why it’s *optional*

For me, it equates to a waste of dev time that could be used for other things. And it wouldn't be optional if it was another actual slot for armor....

ah, there's always something to work on that's taking up time to work on something else.

and they could always do what they do for head and shoulders and have an option Not to use the slot for anything.

barney2525

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

@Elsonso

Interesting article...still I wonder why it still says HeroEngine when you install it...one would think they would be proud of whatever proprietary engine they created...does it even have a name?

Not being snarky I am truly interested.

I think the engine name is Ford 2.2 liter

Pelanora

TheMajority wrote: »

JustLovely wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

I think you are not very familiar with how broad the fantasy genre is and where it comes from

It had very little impact on me or my peers' upbringing in the 1970s.

The general appearance of the Morrowind world in 2002 was reminiscent of the Helliconia trilogy from the early 1980s.
Helliconia probably best demonstrates the 'genre' that I slot myself into.

I'm not sure why the cloaks and capes thing has come again right in after two weeks of complaints about performance, lags, disconnections and login queues. I hope you get cloaks or capes or whatever, but it will only make things worse.

I read the Helliconia Trilogy when I was young, with a lot of H.G. Wells besides. I see where the interest in that comes from. But I think ESO is broadly inspired by the rise of a lot of 80's fantasy movies and books as well, and of course also Toliken, which while they have some of the medieval fantasy elements, they also have some very "unusual" to borrow your word "alien" world building elements in them too. So there was a blend of sci-fi and fantasy. I do cross over and like both.

(First ES game, Elder Scrolls Arena, 1994, had very typical fantasy novel-like cover for example)

I think the alien elements of ESO's world building are still present even with the medieval appearances. Just under the surfaces. If you see Morrowind as the first game, I can understand why a misinterpretation could occur and one would think its only this kind of alien world, but the world building was established before for both styles. (Necrom mentioned in the earlier games too)

I doubt we'll get them at all, people just like to talk about things they'd like to see happen. No harm in it honestly. Ultimately the dev will make the choice or not.

The devs "borrow" heavily from Game of Thrones too.

Game of thrones borrows heavily from other things too, and ain't all too original nor is it exactly the pinnacle of good fantasy. So not really borrowing from GoT since GoT obtained it from someone else first, lol.

Hugely derivative, that GoT. And there were cloaks in sci fi- there were cloaks in Flash Gordon. And better: men in hotpants!!!! Let's have those!

Rowjoh

May I suggest that most people are happy playing an Elder Scrolls Online game, not a Dracula, Batman or Drag Queen game.

Granted, there's a lot of really badly randomly generated designed gear, but there is sufficient choice to invalidate your claims.

Pelanora

So close but..... just too long

Gabriel_H

WoW and other MMOs do have cloaks ... they also have clipping, lots of weapon clipping.

fizzylu

Gabriel_H wrote: »

WoW and other MMOs do have cloaks ... they also have clipping, lots of weapon clipping.

It's really not that bad. I've never seen a game where the moderate clipping from a cloak was worse than a game having no cloaks at all (not that I'm in favor of ESO getting cloaks since clearly the engine and it's server are incapable of handling them, they might cause the game to self combust).

Nestor

Amottica wrote: »

To support my comment I was not able to find a comment directly attributed to the devs. However, I did find a video from 2014 from @Nefas , a very respected ESO player, who commented on this subject since capes were part of the early development in the game but did not make it to the final release. The link stars the video just before Nefas comments on this.

There was some concept art, that was mostly static, that showed the Capes and Cloaks. However, the one time they were added to an Alpha Build, PVP slowed to a Slide Show for the players. And, this was back when PvP had otherwise good performance. The game engine can not process the frame count needed to make the cloaks look, well, not like boards flapping against the back of the player.

Amottica

Nestor wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

To support my comment I was not able to find a comment directly attributed to the devs. However, I did find a video from 2014 from @Nefas , a very respected ESO player, who commented on this subject since capes were part of the early development in the game but did not make it to the final release. The link stars the video just before Nefas comments on this.

There was some concept art, that was mostly static, that showed the Capes and Cloaks. However, the one time they were added to an Alpha Build, PVP slowed to a Slide Show for the players. And, this was back when PvP had otherwise good performance. The game engine can not process the frame count needed to make the cloaks look, well, not like boards flapping against the back of the player.

And there is the hero costume they sold that does have a cloak. However, that was not well received since there is no physics involved. It looks like it is glued to the character. It is awful.

fizzylu

Amottica wrote: »

And there is the hero costume they sold that does have a cloak. However, that was not well received since there is no physics involved. It looks like it is glued to the character. It is awful.

Personally, what makes it awful to me is the rigging of the costume and not the actual lack of physics.... the way it buckles in at the knees (like pretty much every robe skirt in this game) is especially bad and the awkward looking/fitting hood doesn't help anything either.

Uvi_AUT

TaSheen wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Cooperharley wrote: »

It was an engine limitation to my knowledge.

I think the entire ESO player base would love the option & ability to wear cloaks, I just don’t know what advancements have been made with the engine towards that.

I also haven’t heard them comment on this in like forever. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I wouldn't. I've despised cloaks in any game where they've been available - including WoW.

That’s ok, don’t use it then 👍🏻 that’s why it’s *optional*

For me, it equates to a waste of dev time that could be used for other things. And it wouldn't be optional if it was another actual slot for armor....

No its not, since enough people want it.
In my opinion new Raids are the biggest waste of Dev-Time. Hardly anyone plays the content and there are already so many of them.

Pelanora

fizzylu wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

WoW and other MMOs do have cloaks ... they also have clipping, lots of weapon clipping.

It's really not that bad. I've never seen a game where the moderate clipping from a cloak was worse than a game having no cloaks at all (not that I'm in favor of ESO getting cloaks since clearly the engine and it's server are incapable of handling them, they might cause the game to self combust).

No clipping in hogwarts legacy.

fizzylu

Pelanora wrote: »

No clipping in hogwarts legacy.

Comparing a single-player game that's not even two years old to a 10 year old MMO (any MMO, really) makes no sense, just saying. Also not sure what a game having no cloak clipping has anything to do with what I said since I simply stated that a MMO having no cloaks and even more pathetic, being unable to handle them, is worse than a little bit of clipping.... not anything along the lines of "no games have no clipping". But what makes this funny is what I'm going to say next.... and that's the fact that Hogwarts Legacy, indeed, does have clipping. Minimal clipping, but clipping, with some robes/cloaks doing it more than others. Sometimes even the physics physic too hard and the cloaks/robes get stuck on themselves.

Pelanora

Makes perfect sense to point out that zos can't keep hiding behind the old engine/ old code bollocks given what is being produced in gaming these days. They have to get off that engine and sort out the code pbm. The game is increasingly awfully out of step with what's possible. A cute game like hogwarts blows the all serious mmo eso out of the water on so many fronts. Only the huge volume of activity able to be delivered to players after ten years keeps eso viable.

LunaFlora

if you want a cloak then the Breton Hero costume is currently available for 100 Crown Gems/3600 Seals of Endeavour with the Dwarven crates being in the store.

fizzylu

@Pelanora
I mean, I wouldn't call ESO "all serious" and Hogwarts Legacy just a "cute game" as a comparison.... if anything, I would flip those descriptions. That being said, I've never heard of a MMO getting an entirely new engine. Usually a company will just kill the game and create a sequel with a new one.... but considering MMOs are usually made with some degree of custom engine, many MMOs have engines capable of growth. The "engine being too old" point isn't really much of a problem for most MMOs except when it comes to people who have unnecessary desires like "modern/realistic graphics" for every game, even ones that have a very unique/distinct art styles.
But for some reason this doesn't seem to apply to ESO as the engine, code, and even the server are used as reasons why the game is lacking or incapable of having certain things added to it over and over again. And sure.... I could see the code getting a fix and if some serious work gets put into, even the engine could maybe get off of whatever life support it seems to be on.... but it's been ten years and this hasn't happened. And yeah.... maybe Zenimax just doesn't care as the game continues to make money anyway despite the problems with the engine, code, and unstable server(s). But considering they're also the ones that originally made the code and engine, part of me believes it's not that they won't improve upon these things.... but that they don't know how to and can't (seriously.... they released a MMO that couldn't handle a basic feature like cloaks, why?).

Thankfully this game has the TES name and it's lore, the housing system, and gameplay that allows for a more casual approach because if it didn't.... I'd say this game would have died out long ago.

Pelanora

Lol I love the idea of calling eso 'a cute game'. Given the fury and the intensity of the BG and Cyro it seems to me people take it very seriously.

But after a couple of years playing eso, I found myself having a lot more fun fighting in hogwarts, super easy but FUN. And running around looked so good..... and I could FLY.

Anyway, I agree with your post @fizzylu I think there's something overwhelming Zeni, with the engine/code pbms. I think tbh, the 'new game" they talk about is just porting everything over off this one but onto better systems. Why not just keep the cash cow going? Why risk a new game noone likes?

It needs to do something. Even the brand new zones feel old.

Elsonso

Pelanora wrote: »

I think tbh, the 'new game" they talk about is just porting everything over off this one but onto better systems. Why not just keep the cash cow going? Why risk a new game noone likes?

I used to think that "New Game" would use the ESO engine, or at least, the next iteration of it. I figured it would be like Creation Engine and they would just update it and reuse it in the next game.

I think that the "ESO Engine" was built for ESO, and only ESO. I don't think the next game will use it, at least not in the sense that people think of reusing game engines. I think there will be things that ESO does that the new game can use, and they will bring that over and merge it with what they are working on, but it will be New Game Engine, not ESO Engine v2.

This is just a gut feel.

Pelanora

Yes a new game engine, reworking from the ground up, but in elder scrolls, so using the art and quests and voicing. Is my suspicion.