More Base Game awkward dialogue

whitecrow · May 25

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

whitecrow wrote: »

What did Aelif do that was disgusting, and why was I not invited?

Necromancy - she dragged up the soul of the previous Guildmaster of the Fighter’s Guild to question.

Well that's not that disgusting.

TaSheen · May 25

It was to Merric - as a typically biased-against-undead-and-necromancers Redguard.

Warhawke_80 · May 25

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.

It’s not the fantasy racism that is the issue. It’s the obliviousness of it by who they are talking too.

They should have had a separate line of dialogue if the player character was an argonian or a khajiit. It makes no sense to have an npc to say a line like that to one of those two races.

Okay if we are going to say that a good 25% of the dialogue would have to be rewritten...

Let me check with "Imaginary Racism" marketing and see if we have that in the budget....

No ...no we don't.

It’s called immersion, and doesn’t just refer to racist comments. It’s very dissonant when an NPC talks to my character of the same race as they as if I were not. I do appreciate that this wasn’t overlooked in Summerset and in some cases, one even has the option to agree with the NPC or not. I prefer my characters to feel a part of the world.

*Looks at the dialog in every other MMO...*

I don't know what to tell you Hoss.

katanagirl1 · May 26

It’s just humorous to me. I assume that when getting the whole game ready to ship they decided that the nested loop structure for different races was just something they didn’t have the time or money to implement.

Also, these projects get done by groups working on small pieces that are merged together. I imagine that oftentimes it is hard to catch all the nuances like described above when you can’t see the whole picture and put it in context.

Syldras · May 26

ArchMikem wrote: »

And you have made a whole thread about how much you hate Dunmer, so what?!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/320251/confessions-of-a-dunmer-hater/p1

ArchMikem · May 27

Syldras wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

And you have made a whole thread about how much you hate Dunmer, so what?!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/320251/confessions-of-a-dunmer-hater/p1

Daaaang, you're like the guy that digs up old dirt on a Political Candidate.

Syldras · May 27

ArchMikem wrote: »

Daaaang, you're like the guy that digs up old dirt on a Political Candidate.

Came across it accidentially, just recently; can't remember what exactly I googled. It's a proof that the internet never forgets, though. Also, I never had the impression that your stance has changed in any way, so why complain?

ArchMikem · May 27

Syldras wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Daaaang, you're like the guy that digs up old dirt on a Political Candidate.

Came across it accidentially, just recently; can't remember what exactly I googled. It's a proof that the internet never forgets, though. Also, I never had the impression that your stance has changed in any way, so why complain?

I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out generalized dialogue that doesn't take player Race or Condition into account.

fizzylu · May 27

Better dialogue options in general would improve the game and make players care more about the story. I know I'm especially tired of only having dialogue options that make me ask about obvious things that my character already knows or act like my character is incapable of piecing information together like some kind of idiot.... Necrom did that a lot, a lot a lot. Also really need them to stop with the NPCs always feeling the need to repeatedly refer to my character by some sort of title every few lines as if I won't be able to know that they're speaking to me if they don't. But I couldn't even stand FFXIV because of a lot of the NPCs dialogue and how useless/waiting to be told what to do my character always felt interacting with them.... so I've just kind of accepted that MMOs will never do RPG storytelling fluff well.

Syldras · May 27

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'm not complaining, I'm pointing out generalized dialogue that doesn't take player Race or Condition into account.

Thanks for clarifying. The two screenshots without context looked like you were feeling upset about the negative comment about Betmer or Khajiit specifically (which isn't exactly the first time you post something like this, that's why - the more astonishing I found your anti-Dunmer thread, by the way, as I always had the impression you were generally very opposed to generalization and discrimination in the context of TES, which would normally include every race and not only those one favors - but that's none of my business).

But back to topic: Yes, player race and class, factors like vampirism and maybe even skills, should be acknowledged in dialogue. Back in Morrowind and Summerset at least race was recognized, mostly, but at some point ZOS seems to have decided that writing and recording extra dialogue is too much of a hassle. Which I think is a pity, as it would improve immersion, at least for me. And I personally wouldn't even care if it's positive or negative reactions I get from NPCs. Immersion-wise, both would be better than being seen as just some character- and backgroundless non-specified rando by almost everyone you talk to.

Syldras · May 27

fizzylu wrote: »

I know I'm especially tired of only having dialogue options that make me ask about obvious things that my character already knows or act like my character is incapable of piecing information together like some kind of idiot.... Necrom did that a lot, a lot a lot.

It's still bad, but I have the feeling it already improved a bit. At least I found High Isle even much worse.

fizzylu · May 27

@Syldras
Yeah, to be honest I don't remember much of High Isle dialogue and story wise (I did enjoy Galen though and it managed to keep me quite focused). I also wasn't a fan of that old woman investigator lady, every time I interacted with her it felt so odd and random. Also for the first time I hated the Lady Laurent and Stibbon's quest.... it made me uncomfortable, which was sad since that's usually a small highlight of some chapters. It's like I blacked out while going through the majority of the quests though. I did at least like the vibe there and thought they had some moments that were visually really well done (that part where the Ascendants attacked that one castle with the storm, I could be remembering this wrong, or whatever and the statue breaking apart outside Gonfalon Bay). Definitely more aesthetically pleased with High Isle.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · May 28

fizzylu wrote: »

Also really need them to stop with the NPCs always feeling the need to repeatedly refer to my character by some sort of title every few lines as if I won't be able to know that they're speaking to me if they don't.

This, this, this. It’s worse when it’s something awkward *cough*Fate’s Proxy*cough*, ‘Comrade’ and ‘Adept’ weren’t too bad, but when everyone’s calling me ‘Friend’ it sounds like they know they’re supposed to know my name but forgot it, or they just met me even when I’ve been questing on their behalf for some time.

fizzylu wrote: »

Also for the first time I hated the Lady Laurent and Stibbon's quest.... it made me uncomfortable, which was sad since that's usually a small highlight of some chapters.

I’m irrationally glad it wasn’t just me.

Playnice · May 28

ESO dialogue is increasingly filled with what feels like cheap slapstick comedy and innuendo.

Syldras · May 28

fizzylu wrote: »

Yeah, to be honest I don't remember much of High Isle dialogue and story wise (I did enjoy Galen though and it managed to keep me quite focused). I also wasn't a fan of that old woman investigator lady, every time I interacted with her it felt so odd and random. Also for the first time I hated the Lady Laurent and Stibbon's quest.... it made me uncomfortable, which was sad since that's usually a small highlight of some chapters.

Yes, that was horrid. Actually I found the whole chapter horrid. The stupid flirting you could not stop (by that old lady and Jakarn), the druid artifact quest in Llanshara. I'm not against "romance" or "adult" themes in general, but it felt horribly cheap and obtrusive. Badly written. And the whole chapter was overfraught with that.

Playnice wrote: »

ESO dialogue is increasingly filled with what feels like cheap slapstick comedy and innuendo.

I agree 100%, sadly!

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

This, this, this. It’s worse when it’s something awkward *cough*Fate’s Proxy*cough*, ‘Comrade’ and ‘Adept’ weren’t too bad, but when everyone’s calling me ‘Friend’ it sounds like they know they’re supposed to know my name but forgot it, or they just met me even when I’ve been questing on their behalf for some time.

"Hero" mostly makes me cringe. I can understand it if you actually just saved a character's life and they're the emotional type, but otherwise it sounds ridiculous.

Aurielle · May 28

A Khajiit NPC once called my Khajiit a smooth skin, and it would have been great to respond back with, “excuse this one, this one’s fur is sleeker than yours.”

katanagirl1 · May 28

Syldras wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

Yeah, to be honest I don't remember much of High Isle dialogue and story wise (I did enjoy Galen though and it managed to keep me quite focused). I also wasn't a fan of that old woman investigator lady, every time I interacted with her it felt so odd and random. Also for the first time I hated the Lady Laurent and Stibbon's quest.... it made me uncomfortable, which was sad since that's usually a small highlight of some chapters.

Yes, that was horrid. Actually I found the whole chapter horrid. The stupid flirting you could not stop (by that old lady and Jakarn), the druid artifact quest in Llanshara. I'm not against "romance" or "adult" themes in general, but it felt horribly cheap and obtrusive. Badly written. And the whole chapter was overfraught with that.

Playnice wrote: »

ESO dialogue is increasingly filled with what feels like cheap slapstick comedy and innuendo.

I agree 100%, sadly!

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

This, this, this. It’s worse when it’s something awkward *cough*Fate’s Proxy*cough*, ‘Comrade’ and ‘Adept’ weren’t too bad, but when everyone’s calling me ‘Friend’ it sounds like they know they’re supposed to know my name but forgot it, or they just met me even when I’ve been questing on their behalf for some time.

"Hero" mostly makes me cringe. I can understand it if you actually just saved a character's life and they're the emotional type, but otherwise it sounds ridiculous.

Titles as placeholders in lieu of character names don’t bother me. Creepy old lecherous ladies that hit on my female toon constantly do.

TaSheen · May 28

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

Yeah, to be honest I don't remember much of High Isle dialogue and story wise (I did enjoy Galen though and it managed to keep me quite focused). I also wasn't a fan of that old woman investigator lady, every time I interacted with her it felt so odd and random. Also for the first time I hated the Lady Laurent and Stibbon's quest.... it made me uncomfortable, which was sad since that's usually a small highlight of some chapters.

Yes, that was horrid. Actually I found the whole chapter horrid. The stupid flirting you could not stop (by that old lady and Jakarn), the druid artifact quest in Llanshara. I'm not against "romance" or "adult" themes in general, but it felt horribly cheap and obtrusive. Badly written. And the whole chapter was overfraught with that.

Playnice wrote: »

ESO dialogue is increasingly filled with what feels like cheap slapstick comedy and innuendo.

I agree 100%, sadly!

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

This, this, this. It’s worse when it’s something awkward *cough*Fate’s Proxy*cough*, ‘Comrade’ and ‘Adept’ weren’t too bad, but when everyone’s calling me ‘Friend’ it sounds like they know they’re supposed to know my name but forgot it, or they just met me even when I’ve been questing on their behalf for some time.

"Hero" mostly makes me cringe. I can understand it if you actually just saved a character's life and they're the emotional type, but otherwise it sounds ridiculous.

Titles as placeholders in lieu of character names don’t bother me. Creepy old lecherous ladies that hit on my female toon constantly do.

Creepy lecherous guys too....

vsrs_au · May 28

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

Yeah, to be honest I don't remember much of High Isle dialogue and story wise (I did enjoy Galen though and it managed to keep me quite focused). I also wasn't a fan of that old woman investigator lady, every time I interacted with her it felt so odd and random. Also for the first time I hated the Lady Laurent and Stibbon's quest.... it made me uncomfortable, which was sad since that's usually a small highlight of some chapters.

Yes, that was horrid. Actually I found the whole chapter horrid. The stupid flirting you could not stop (by that old lady and Jakarn), the druid artifact quest in Llanshara. I'm not against "romance" or "adult" themes in general, but it felt horribly cheap and obtrusive. Badly written. And the whole chapter was overfraught with that.

Playnice wrote: »

ESO dialogue is increasingly filled with what feels like cheap slapstick comedy and innuendo.

I agree 100%, sadly!

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

This, this, this. It’s worse when it’s something awkward *cough*Fate’s Proxy*cough*, ‘Comrade’ and ‘Adept’ weren’t too bad, but when everyone’s calling me ‘Friend’ it sounds like they know they’re supposed to know my name but forgot it, or they just met me even when I’ve been questing on their behalf for some time.

"Hero" mostly makes me cringe. I can understand it if you actually just saved a character's life and they're the emotional type, but otherwise it sounds ridiculous.

Titles as placeholders in lieu of character names don’t bother me. Creepy old lecherous ladies that hit on my female toon constantly do.

Lechers are a problem regardless of their sex. After all, this is the 21st century.

Araneae6537 · May 28

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.

It’s not the fantasy racism that is the issue. It’s the obliviousness of it by who they are talking too.

They should have had a separate line of dialogue if the player character was an argonian or a khajiit. It makes no sense to have an npc to say a line like that to one of those two races.

Okay if we are going to say that a good 25% of the dialogue would have to be rewritten...

Let me check with "Imaginary Racism" marketing and see if we have that in the budget....

No ...no we don't.

It’s called immersion, and doesn’t just refer to racist comments. It’s very dissonant when an NPC talks to my character of the same race as they as if I were not. I do appreciate that this wasn’t overlooked in Summerset and in some cases, one even has the option to agree with the NPC or not. I prefer my characters to feel a part of the world.

*Looks at the dialog in every other MMO...*

I don't know what to tell you Hoss.

Hoss??? I had to look up what that even means and it still makes no sense — unless calling me something that doesn’t fit irl (or at least on the forum) is supposed to illustrate that it is somehow fitting in games? I have no idea.

Anyway…

GW2 at least usually had race appropriate dialogue as I recall, at least where it made sense to recognize race. Since I always played that game as a sylvari, the Heart of Thorns expansion was especially enjoyable for me as my character had to deal with both the corruption itself and the suspicion of other characters. SWTOR had that AND recognition of the character’s alignment and choices, something I’ve never found in another MMO.

That’s the main barrier to me being more involved with some of the quests in ESO — I don’t feel a part of the world and story, but a raceless faceless entity that everyone needs only to smack the big bad for them.

There are some side quests that I enjoy, and the latest companion quests, because at least then there is some development that involves my character, even though predetermined.

Whether saying something positive or negative, it is very jarring and alienating when an NPC acts as though the player character is not one of the race they are referring to regardless of whether or not this is the case. Like Mirri’s intro quest — neither Mirri nor the Argonian from the expedition recognize if the player character is Dunmer and speak as if Mirri is the only Dunmer present.

Most dialogue doesn’t have to be different, but if race is going to be brought up, then it only makes sense to recognize whether the player character is a part of that group or not, and ideally give the player options in how to respond. Even if just flavor text, that would add a lot for me.

vsrs_au · May 28

On one of my recent breaks from ESO, I played Elden Ring, and cryptic doesn't even begin to describe the quest dialogue in that game, LOL. It really made you think about what the NPCs were saying, and what it meant in the context of the overall story (and eventually it [kind of] made sense later on in the game). It was a nice change from the Captain Obvious approach of ESO, though.

Syldras · May 28

vsrs_au wrote: »

Lechers are a problem regardless of their sex.

The main problem I see is that there's no option to stop it. I know some players seem to like the "flirty" stuff, fine for them, but for people don't want it (whether they dislike it personally or don't find it fitting for the character they're playing, doesn't matter) there should be a dialogue option to cut it off. No matter whether it's Jakarn, the creepy grandma, Naryu or whom else they're going to unleash upon us in the future.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Titles as placeholders in lieu of character names don’t bother me.

For me, it depends. Some titles just seem... very artificial and therefore immersion-breaking because normally, no one would talk like that.

Sometimes, it might even be a cultural difference. I mentioned the "hero" stuff. I know it's quite common in the USA, where also soldiers and firefighters are called heroes sometimes, but in my country, no matter how brave someone is, you still don't call them "hero". It's an outdated term here. It might be used if you talk about history or myths ("Achilleus was a Greek hero of the Trojan War"), but not for people who live nowadays. Tabloids sometimes do it, but it's perceived as exaggerated and sensationalist. So the first sentiment if you get called hero by someone is irritation. You wonder if the person is trying to flatter you or maybe even mocking you. So if everyone and their dog calls you "hero" in ESO, no matter how little your character might have done yet, it just doesn't feel convincing.

While we're at it: Another term that always comes across as weird and slightly immersion-breaking is "***". I'm not even sure if it's censored here at the forum - I mean that insult that originally meant "illegitimate son". In US media, it's the most common insult, I guess. In my country, the word exists, but no one really uses it. Only in movies or games from the USA, you hear it all the time, because they tend to keep it like that, even if they translate the rest. So if there's a movie or game and you hear someone yelling "That ***!" - you immediately think "ah, yes, the USA". Which isn't exactly what I want to think about when I'm playing a game set in a medieval fantasy world. But that's a minor thing. Mostly, the translations are quite good, in my opinion.

Icy_Waffles · May 28

TC clearly never played Skyrim as a dark elf lol

JoeCapricorn · May 28

I'm replaying all the quests on my Bosmer Arcanist and a random delve quest with a Bosmer had her remark on my Bosmerity

katanagirl1 · May 29

Syldras wrote: »

vsrs_au wrote: »

Lechers are a problem regardless of their sex.

The main problem I see is that there's no option to stop it. I know some players seem to like the "flirty" stuff, fine for them, but for people don't want it (whether they dislike it personally or don't find it fitting for the character they're playing, doesn't matter) there should be a dialogue option to cut it off. No matter whether it's Jakarn, the creepy grandma, Naryu or whom else they're going to unleash upon us in the future.

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Titles as placeholders in lieu of character names don’t bother me.

For me, it depends. Some titles just seem... very artificial and therefore immersion-breaking because normally, no one would talk like that.

Sometimes, it might even be a cultural difference. I mentioned the "hero" stuff. I know it's quite common in the USA, where also soldiers and firefighters are called heroes sometimes, but in my country, no matter how brave someone is, you still don't call them "hero". It's an outdated term here. It might be used if you talk about history or myths ("Achilleus was a Greek hero of the Trojan War"), but not for people who live nowadays. Tabloids sometimes do it, but it's perceived as exaggerated and sensationalist. So the first sentiment if you get called hero by someone is irritation. You wonder if the person is trying to flatter you or maybe even mocking you. So if everyone and their dog calls you "hero" in ESO, no matter how little your character might have done yet, it just doesn't feel convincing.

While we're at it: Another term that always comes across as weird and slightly immersion-breaking is "***". I'm not even sure if it's censored here at the forum - I mean that insult that originally meant "illegitimate son". In US media, it's the most common insult, I guess. In my country, the word exists, but no one really uses it. Only in movies or games from the USA, you hear it all the time, because they tend to keep it like that, even if they translate the rest. So if there's a movie or game and you hear someone yelling "That ***!" - you immediately think "ah, yes, the USA". Which isn't exactly what I want to think about when I'm playing a game set in a medieval fantasy world. But that's a minor thing. Mostly, the translations are quite good, in my opinion.

I don’t mind Jakarn or even Naryu, but creepy old lady was far worse. It’s probably just her age. I guess it might still be flirting, but it seemed overly oppressive. Older people don’t usually act that way.

Syldras · May 29

katanagirl1 wrote: »

I don’t mind Jakarn or even Naryu, but creepy old lady was far worse. It’s probably just her age. I guess it might still be flirting, but it seemed overly oppressive. Older people don’t usually act that way.

My main would also have whacked Jakarn and Naryu on the head if it has been possible, and if unstoppable "flirty" dialogue causes that reaction, it's bad design

No, seriously: It's just totally immersion-breaking for some characters not to be able to say anything against it, not to react at all, or even to be forced to play along with it. There are so many reasons roleplay-wise that would make a character react disapprovingly of some npc's flirting: Maybe the player character is already married, has just recently lost their spouse and is mourning, is not attracted to the gender or other aspects of the flirty NPC (I doubt that literally everyone would romance an assassin or an orc or Argonian) or not attracted to anyone at all, doesn't find them interesting as an individual, has decided that romance has no place in their adventurer's life, maybe they're even celibate as a member of some religion or cult. There are so many reasons a player character would disapprove and put a stop to it. And I think ZOS should give players that little choice.

WhiteCoatSyndrome · May 30

TaSheen wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

fizzylu wrote: »

Yeah, to be honest I don't remember much of High Isle dialogue and story wise (I did enjoy Galen though and it managed to keep me quite focused). I also wasn't a fan of that old woman investigator lady, every time I interacted with her it felt so odd and random. Also for the first time I hated the Lady Laurent and Stibbon's quest.... it made me uncomfortable, which was sad since that's usually a small highlight of some chapters.

Yes, that was horrid. Actually I found the whole chapter horrid. The stupid flirting you could not stop (by that old lady and Jakarn), the druid artifact quest in Llanshara. I'm not against "romance" or "adult" themes in general, but it felt horribly cheap and obtrusive. Badly written. And the whole chapter was overfraught with that.

Playnice wrote: »

ESO dialogue is increasingly filled with what feels like cheap slapstick comedy and innuendo.

I agree 100%, sadly!

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

This, this, this. It’s worse when it’s something awkward *cough*Fate’s Proxy*cough*, ‘Comrade’ and ‘Adept’ weren’t too bad, but when everyone’s calling me ‘Friend’ it sounds like they know they’re supposed to know my name but forgot it, or they just met me even when I’ve been questing on their behalf for some time.

"Hero" mostly makes me cringe. I can understand it if you actually just saved a character's life and they're the emotional type, but otherwise it sounds ridiculous.

Titles as placeholders in lieu of character names don’t bother me. Creepy old lecherous ladies that hit on my female toon constantly do.

Creepy lecherous guys too....

While we’re on the subject I’m still mad at what they did with Raz in Galen. 😐 NOT COOL ZOS! I saw Sound of Freedom and now I want to leave the room every time I come across him.

Syldras · May 30

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

While we’re on the subject I’m still mad that Raz got turned into a *** in Galen. 😐 NOT COOL ZOS!

I still think he did not mean someone underage (it would be really weird for ZOS to imply that, and they certainly know that players would disapprove), but "boy" was meant colloquially. Not sure if it works in every language, but I hear younger adult people calling themself "boy"/"girl" all the time (maybe until they're mid-30 or sometimes even older). And they're also calling their friends or other people their age that. I personally don't do it because I find it weird once you've reached a certain age, but it isn't that uncommon, I think.

TaSheen · May 30

Syldras wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

While we’re on the subject I’m still mad that Raz got turned into a *** in Galen. 😐 NOT COOL ZOS!

I still think he did not mean someone underage (it would be really weird for ZOS to imply that, and they certainly know that players would disapprove), but "boy" was meant colloquially. Not sure if it works in every language, but I hear younger adult people calling themself "boy"/"girl" all the time (maybe until they're mid-30 or sometimes even older). And they're also calling their friends or other people their age that. I personally don't do it because I find it weird once you've reached a certain age, but it isn't that uncommon, I think.

That's probably a fair representation of how Raz means it. There's a much more suspect usage in parts of the US.... and that's all I'm going to say because it gets into things that are explicitly against TOS.

spartaxoxo · May 30

Syldras wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

While we’re on the subject I’m still mad that Raz got turned into a *** in Galen. 😐 NOT COOL ZOS!

I still think he did not mean someone underage (it would be really weird for ZOS to imply that, and they certainly know that players would disapprove), but "boy" was meant colloquially. Not sure if it works in every language, but I hear younger adult people calling themself "boy"/"girl" all the time (maybe until they're mid-30 or sometimes even older). And they're also calling their friends or other people their age that. I personally don't do it because I find it weird once you've reached a certain age, but it isn't that uncommon, I think.

Boy is really not uncommon slang for young adults. It's certainly not suggesting anything untoward.