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More Base Game awkward dialogue

ArchMikem
ArchMikem
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c8552e5594bb85886f9b91bfa65f89dd9edffe23.pnj
CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • Rkindaleft
    Rkindaleft
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    Merric is a bigot confirmed.
    Edited by Rkindaleft on May 24, 2024 3:49AM
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  • Hapexamendios
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    I've seen that line many times and never cared. Still don't.
  • davidtk
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    I've seen that line many times and never cared. Still don't.

    Exactly
    Edited by davidtk on May 24, 2024 6:05AM
    Really sorry for my english
  • BlueRaven
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    I've seen that line many times and never cared. Still don't.

    I think the point is they are saying it to a khajiit. Kinda awkward.
  • AzuraFan
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    LOL. I wish the dialogue was more intelligent when it comes to stuff like this. I've had NPCs lecture about Bosmers and how they live, and I'm like, "Uh, hi?" Points at self.
  • Jaraal
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    Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.


    Edited by Jaraal on May 24, 2024 4:11PM
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • WhiteCoatSyndrome
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    Raz going on a tangent for Argonian PCs in Summerset was actually worse IMO; my abrasive give-no-cares Daggerfall Covenant Argonian DK didn’t have the option not to be offended by this random cat he just met and someone actually spent scripting time and voice acting making him be offended whether he wanted to be or not. Like getting called a lizard was in any way shape or form comparable to being enslaved by House Hlaalu! Get thicker scales, fellow lizards! 😝

    That said, I do generally like when they have the NPCs notice things like race. Just not when they’re putting words in my PC’s mouth that aren’t optional, same with asking them to repeat themselves like my character wasn’t paying attention during the questline.
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  • BlueRaven
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.


    It’s not the fantasy racism that is the issue. It’s the obliviousness of it by who they are talking too.

    They should have had a separate line of dialogue if the player character was an argonian or a khajiit. It makes no sense to have an npc to say a line like that to one of those two races.
  • C_Inside
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but this is from a quest in the Alik'r Desert right? Keep in mind that this dialogue was written before One Tamriel was a thing. Back when you weren't supposed to experience this quest as anything other than an Orc, Breton, Redguard, or Imperial. So it makes sense that there is no failsafe if you're a Khajiit.
  • TybaltKaine
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    Nope, it's a Fighter's Guild quest, which wasn't race or alliance locked. It's a lazy oversight at the end of the day, or a character letting an epithet slip and not considering the company he keeps.
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  • SatanicSister
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    That screenshot is taking things out of context. Merric just found out that his argonian friend is a murderer and that his khajiit friend used some form of necromancy-like magic to bind previous guildmasters soul. Obviously he's pissed and angry at them two, hence the comment. It's not aimed at the entire race.
    "If we are going to play the waiting game, the guy who has been around for 10000 years is going to win."
  • Jaraal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.


    It’s not the fantasy racism that is the issue. It’s the obliviousness of it by who they are talking too.

    They should have had a separate line of dialogue if the player character was an argonian or a khajiit. It makes no sense to have an npc to say a line like that to one of those two races.

    Why would an NPC choose to lie to one race about their bigotry? If a Redguard hates cats, he should be able to say it to cats as well. Especially in a world where everybody is ready to fight at the drop of a hat.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • ArchMikem
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    That screenshot is taking things out of context. Merric just found out that his argonian friend is a murderer and that his khajiit friend used some form of necromancy-like magic to bind previous guildmasters soul. Obviously he's pissed and angry at them two, hence the comment. It's not aimed at the entire race.

    If it were a personal insult aimed at Sees and Aelif specifically, then he wouldn't have used plural generalizing terms "Lizards and Cats".

    You wouldn't say "Hell take Asians." because you were angry with your friend from Japan.
    CP2,000 Master Explorer - AvA One Star General - Console Peasant - The Clan
    Quest Objective: OMG Go Talk To That Kitty!
  • Araneae6537
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.


    It’s not the fantasy racism that is the issue. It’s the obliviousness of it by who they are talking too.

    They should have had a separate line of dialogue if the player character was an argonian or a khajiit. It makes no sense to have an npc to say a line like that to one of those two races.

    Why would an NPC choose to lie to one race about their bigotry? If a Redguard hates cats, he should be able to say it to cats as well. Especially in a world where everybody is ready to fight at the drop of a hat.

    I agree, but usually things are phrased differently if the person one is speaking to is is part of the group being characterized — good or bad. I felt that some dialogue in Mirri’s intro quest should have been different when the player is a Dunmer.
  • WhiteCoatSyndrome
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    C_Inside wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong but this is from a quest in the Alik'r Desert right? Keep in mind that this dialogue was written before One Tamriel was a thing. Back when you weren't supposed to experience this quest as anything other than an Orc, Breton, Redguard, or Imperial. So it makes sense that there is no failsafe if you're a Khajiit.

    The Any Race, Any Alliance upgrade has been a thing since launch though, being IIRC a preorder bonus.
    #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
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  • SatanicSister
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    ArchMikem wrote: »
    That screenshot is taking things out of context. Merric just found out that his argonian friend is a murderer and that his khajiit friend used some form of necromancy-like magic to bind previous guildmasters soul. Obviously he's pissed and angry at them two, hence the comment. It's not aimed at the entire race.

    If it were a personal insult aimed at Sees and Aelif specifically, then he wouldn't have used plural generalizing terms "Lizards and Cats".

    You wouldn't say "Hell take Asians." because you were angry with your friend from Japan.


    Years ago one foreign truck driver drove into my (back then) boyfriends car. Luckily he wasn't seriously injured, though car was badly damaged. I did think to myself then, "Damned foreign drivers! If they can't drive, they'd better stay at home!", despite being angry at that one truck driver.

    But then again, we shouldn't confuse real life with a video game. Kind of reminds me how someone demanded the removal of ivory from the game, because poaching is a problem in the real world.
    "If we are going to play the waiting game, the guy who has been around for 10000 years is going to win."
  • Warhawke_80
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.


    It’s not the fantasy racism that is the issue. It’s the obliviousness of it by who they are talking too.

    They should have had a separate line of dialogue if the player character was an argonian or a khajiit. It makes no sense to have an npc to say a line like that to one of those two races.

    Okay if we are going to say that a good 25% of the dialogue would have to be rewritten...

    Let me check with "Imaginary Racism" marketing and see if we have that in the budget....

    No ...no we don't.
    ““Elric knew. The sword told him, without words of any sort. Stormbringer needed to fight, for that was its reason for existence...”― Michael Moorcock, Elric of Melniboné
  • tincanman
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    Rkindaleft wrote: »
    Merric is a bigot confirmed.

    We love and respect Meric only for his awesome singing skills, not his dodgy politics.

    /s
  • EdjeSwift
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    ArchMikem wrote: »

    If it were a personal insult aimed at Sees and Aelif specifically, then he wouldn't have used plural generalizing terms "Lizards and Cats".

    You wouldn't say "Hell take Asians." because you were angry with your friend from Japan.

    This is actually much more common than some people would probably find appropriate. Many a time I've heard people angry at a specific group say, "God damn, [insert very harsh term for the group in plural" in a fit of anger and then turn to see someone of said offending group and day, "Not all of them, you're cool"
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  • Araneae6537
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.


    It’s not the fantasy racism that is the issue. It’s the obliviousness of it by who they are talking too.

    They should have had a separate line of dialogue if the player character was an argonian or a khajiit. It makes no sense to have an npc to say a line like that to one of those two races.

    Okay if we are going to say that a good 25% of the dialogue would have to be rewritten...

    Let me check with "Imaginary Racism" marketing and see if we have that in the budget....

    No ...no we don't.

    It’s called immersion, and doesn’t just refer to racist comments. It’s very dissonant when an NPC talks to my character of the same race as they as if I were not. I do appreciate that this wasn’t overlooked in Summerset and in some cases, one even has the option to agree with the NPC or not. I prefer my characters to feel a part of the world.
  • kargen27
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    Looking at the entire quest I'm not seeing racism but disappointment in friends. He was among the last in the fighters guild to support Sees All Colors and called Aelif friend a few times.
    and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."
  • BretonMage
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    There are a lot of things ZOS can work on to make ESO more fun and more immersive. Making fantasy racism more believable is pretty low on my list of priorities tbh.

    It's also possible that some Tamrielites are so racist that they're unashamed to be open about it.
  • Jaraal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.


    It’s not the fantasy racism that is the issue. It’s the obliviousness of it by who they are talking too.

    They should have had a separate line of dialogue if the player character was an argonian or a khajiit. It makes no sense to have an npc to say a line like that to one of those two races.

    Okay if we are going to say that a good 25% of the dialogue would have to be rewritten...

    Let me check with "Imaginary Racism" marketing and see if we have that in the budget....

    No ...no we don't.

    It’s called immersion, and doesn’t just refer to racist comments. It’s very dissonant when an NPC talks to my character of the same race as they as if I were not. I do appreciate that this wasn’t overlooked in Summerset and in some cases, one even has the option to agree with the NPC or not. I prefer my characters to feel a part of the world.

    Imagine how the currently least stealthy race in the game (Bosmer) must feel when all these NPCs are talking about how stealthy wood elves are! Apparently they didn't get the memo (translation: ZOS didn't bother to alter NPC dialogue to reflect the new racial traits) that ZOS didn't feel that 20 years of Bosmer stealth lore was fitting any more. I mean, even Imperials are stealthier than Bosmer now, as they get a 6% reduction to the cost of Sneak.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • BlueRaven
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Fantasy racism and bigotry has been a key component of TES games from the beginning. This should surprise no one. However, many people can't separate certain portions of the RPG aspect of games from real life. I mean, you're running around killing people in game by the hundreds and thousands, which the extreme majority of people wouldn't do once they stood up from the computer. But if a Dunmer hates and enslaves and mistreats an Argonian (two races that aren't even real), some will take offense at that type of interaction.


    It’s not the fantasy racism that is the issue. It’s the obliviousness of it by who they are talking too.

    They should have had a separate line of dialogue if the player character was an argonian or a khajiit. It makes no sense to have an npc to say a line like that to one of those two races.

    Why would an NPC choose to lie to one race about their bigotry? If a Redguard hates cats, he should be able to say it to cats as well. Especially in a world where everybody is ready to fight at the drop of a hat.

    Not lie, but the phrasing should change. This is written as if the player can’t be seen by the npc. It’s awkward and a bit lazy.

    If talking with a arg or kha it should have gone something like;

    “Aelif did what? Stendarr's breath, that's disgusting. I'll have to talk to her when she returns. But ... I suppose it did answer our concerns. Oblivion take you lizards and cats, both!“

    See the difference? To other races he refers to them in the 3rd person. In person (to those races), he should direct the line directly at the player.
    Edited by BlueRaven on May 24, 2024 8:13PM
  • barney2525
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    AzuraFan wrote: »
    LOL. I wish the dialogue was more intelligent when it comes to stuff like this. I've had NPCs lecture about Bosmers and how they live, and I'm like, "Uh, hi?" Points at self.

    I've had NPCs tell my Vampire character to kill off as many vampires as I could with the information they gave me. Because that NPC hates vampires.

    :#
  • Drammanoth
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    barney2525 wrote: »
    AzuraFan wrote: »
    LOL. I wish the dialogue was more intelligent when it comes to stuff like this. I've had NPCs lecture about Bosmers and how they live, and I'm like, "Uh, hi?" Points at self.

    I've had NPCs tell my Vampire character to kill off as many vampires as I could with the information they gave me. Because that NPC hates vampires.

    :#
    It's good though that Mel Adrys reacts to your vampirism at the end of Hrota Cave quest. A pity that Verandis does not...
  • ellmarie
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    Definitely a missed opportunity to go back to do the Greymoor chapter as a vampire. And I believe Sharp as Night says something when going to Windhelm with the Nords, and I'm literally a Nord. It would have been funny to insert, oh except you though...you're different. lol
    Xbox X- NA
  • Vulsahdaal
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    Drammanoth wrote: »
    barney2525 wrote: »
    AzuraFan wrote: »
    LOL. I wish the dialogue was more intelligent when it comes to stuff like this. I've had NPCs lecture about Bosmers and how they live, and I'm like, "Uh, hi?" Points at self.

    I've had NPCs tell my Vampire character to kill off as many vampires as I could with the information they gave me. Because that NPC hates vampires.

    :#
    It's good though that Mel Adrys reacts to your vampirism at the end of Hrota Cave quest. A pity that Verandis does not...

    Verandis did at least once I remember, when we were discussing the possibilities of the Dark Heart.

    bVZiQr9.jpeg

    iFBPkD0.jpeg
  • whitecrow
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    What did Aelif do that was disgusting, and why was I not invited?
  • WhiteCoatSyndrome
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    whitecrow wrote: »
    What did Aelif do that was disgusting, and why was I not invited?

    Necromancy - she dragged up the soul of the previous Guildmaster of the Fighter’s Guild to question.
    #proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
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    A useful explanation for how RNG works

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