glitches, or misunderstandings? Gold gains event

Malyore

I have gotten most of the answers I need. I now understand which sources are affected by this event. I also have been told that the events description differs between website and platform. All of this I get. Addressing the one thing that continues to confuse me is the only reply I am seeking now.

I will try to make this as clear as I can for those that aren't getting what I'm saying or are not addressing this one last point of confusion I have:
The crux, the very heart and soul of the matter I now seek an answer to is whether or not NPC merchants are a source of gold within the game. And if they are not, I want someone to explain to me why. I have heard that it doesn't count as a source because it's the act of "trading" or some other thing-- thinking that the process of getting the gold has some determination on its numbers. I do not believe that thinking is valid. The process is irrelevant to me right now. It does not matter whether or not the gold is found in a chest, rewarded by Akatosh for saving the day, sold for treasure, or if coins are milked from a netch. No acts within the process change the numbers, the math, the increase of gold within ESO's virtual economy. Look at the numbers only and their point of origin. Do not focus on whether there are items or favors or murder involved, just the origin of new gold that is created within the game. All gold as far as I can see is sourced by three points. Looting, Quest Rewards, and Selling/Fencing items to NPCs. These are the points where that number of gold within ESO's total economy increases.

Gold that is passed around between players on online guild-trading is not a source, because no new gold is made in the game. When I buy an item from a guild-trader, I am not making brand new gold to give to the seller. No new gold is spawned and therefore raising the roof of total gold within all of ESO. Instead, the gold that the seller gets from me is gold I already have a limited amount of, which that gold itself already came from a source. When you trace back the roots of all the gold in ESO, no matter whose pocket it is in, the very origin and birthplace of all the games gold comes from those three listed sources. Looting, Rewards, and Selling/Fencing. Is this agreeable? If not, then why? If the numbers are actually what's irrelevant and instead the process is crucial, again I ask why and how? I need an argument against my concept of the numbers in order to believe that NPCs are not a source. This is the only point I need addressed currently.

EdjeSwift

Malyore wrote: »

Gold that is passed around between players on online guild-trading is not a source, because no new gold is made in the game. When I buy an item from a guild-trader, I am not making brand new gold to give to the seller. No new gold is spawned and therefore raising the roof of total gold within all of ESO. Instead, the gold that the seller gets from me is gold I already have a limited amount of, which that gold itself already came from a source. When you trace back the roots of all the gold in ESO, no matter whose pocket it is in, the very origin and birthplace of all the games gold comes from those three listed sources. Looting, Rewards, and Selling/Fencing. Is this agreeable? If not, then why? If the numbers are actually what's irrelevant and instead the process is crucial, again I ask why and how? I need an argument against my concept of the numbers in order to believe that NPCs are not a source. This is the only point I need addressed currently.

It's as simple as understanding loot tables and variables.

Everything has a loot table, whether it's currency + item, currency only, or item only. Most of the gold being doubled comes from a loot table where the value can fluctuate, yes, even quest rewards fluctuate; based on level. The code for this event doubles the gold that comes from the currency loot table. Simple as that. The gold you're arguing for isn't coded as part of that table but rather the item table.

Simple as that, it's a fixed value for an item v. a loot table. Sure some tables have static values, but it's still coded differently from an item having a fixed value.

Malyore

ESO_player123 wrote: »

Because none of the other "sources" would allow for this scenario:
Sell items to a merchants for double gold. Buy them back for normal prices (as listed on the item itself). Sell them again for double. Rinse and repeat.
You could argue that buying back could be adjusted as well for the duration of the event, sure. But do we really want this hassle?

Ignore the event right now, it's no longer my main point.
That precise moment when an NPC provides you gold for selling an item, regardless of what can be done with the gold in the aftermath. Is that a source of gold within the game?

The reason I am fixated on this point is because almost all of the people have said and agreed that it is not a source. I am trying to see why that is. The details with the event will come after I have understood this.

Malyore

EdjeSwift wrote: »

It's as simple as understanding loot tables and variables.

Everything has a loot table, whether it's currency + item, currency only, or item only. Most of the gold being doubled comes from a loot table where the value can fluctuate, yes, even quest rewards fluctuate; based on level. The code for this event doubles the gold that comes from the currency loot table. Simple as that. The gold you're arguing for isn't coded as part of that table but rather the item table.

Simple as that, it's a fixed value for an item v. a loot table. Sure some tables have static values, but it's still coded differently from an item having a fixed value.

I think I see. So you're saying it IS the act within the process, but the process exists within the code. So the fact that it's "trading" or not within the players world is irrelevant. It's how the game code itself speaks for gold to be created?

EdjeSwift

Malyore wrote: »

Ignore the event right now, it's no longer my main point.
That precise moment when an NPC provides you gold for selling an item, regardless of what can be done with the gold in the aftermath. Is that a source of gold within the game?

The reason I am fixated on this point is because almost all of the people have said and agreed that it is not a source. I am trying to see why that is. The details with the event will come after I have understood this.

This is not an argument worth having because it's based on semantics and definition.

You're going to keep arguing that's it a source because you are of the viewpoint that it's a source because gold is "generated" upon selling.

They're going to counter that it's not a source because it's an item that was generated and not the gold.

Sometimes you gotta figure out when something isn't worth the time and this is one of them.

Edit: Plus in all honesty, the only entity's definition that matters is one Zenimax Online Studios and they don't call it a source according to their literature.

Malyore

EdjeSwift wrote: »

This is not an argument worth having because it's based on semantics and definition.

You're going to keep arguing that's it a source because you are of the viewpoint that it's a source because gold is "generated" upon selling.

They're going to counter that it's not a source because it's an item that was generated and not the gold.

Sometimes you gotta figure out when something isn't worth the time and this is one of them.

On a personal note, I love semantics of definition. Words can be very vague or they can have precision. When people use precise words in a vague manner, it can be confusing to me (obviously). I enjoy burrowing through meanings and the such to arrive at the bare bones of a matter. I currently have the time and energy to continue the discussion. I've been trying to defend my point for so long I'm just wanting to see if I'm at least making sense! And if so all I'd ask then is that the announcement page on PlayStations ESO be changed to match what the website says.

In the counter example you gave, I believe both the item and the gold are generated. But they are mutually exclusive to one another, it cannot exist in both forms. I would still argue for my point because the order of generation doesn't change the end result. Gold, without the item.
I just today learned the definition of an antinomy. Perhaps these discussions are an example.

LunaFlora

^ the event description in-game.
"Find +100% Gold from all game sources."

as has been said already by others, including Kevin, merchants are not gold sources.

the event text could be changed sure
But if anyone else questions it before it might get changed they will find plenty of forum posts that give the answer, multiple in this thread alone.

Malyore

LunaFlora wrote: »

as has been said already by others, including Kevin, merchants are not gold sources.

Malyore wrote: »

I want someone to explain to me why.

Then I ask Kevin to explain to me why!

The closest answer I have gotten is this, but I'm still not sure if my interpretation of it is correct:

Malyore wrote: »

EdjeSwift wrote: »

It's as simple as understanding loot tables and variables.

Everything has a loot table, whether it's currency + item, currency only, or item only. Most of the gold being doubled comes from a loot table where the value can fluctuate, yes, even quest rewards fluctuate; based on level. The code for this event doubles the gold that comes from the currency loot table. Simple as that. The gold you're arguing for isn't coded as part of that table but rather the item table.

Simple as that, it's a fixed value for an item v. a loot table. Sure some tables have static values, but it's still coded differently from an item having a fixed value.

I think I see. So you're saying it IS the act within the process, but the process exists within the code. So the fact that it's "trading" or not within the players world is irrelevant. It's how the game code itself speaks for gold to be created?

Am I interpreting this correct in that there's code on looting and rewards that is worded as "generation/source" of gold? Where as gold from merchants, despite being a source in the economy, is not recognized within the game code as a source of gold generation? The difference being where the definition of "source" is applied?

furiouslog

LaintalAy wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

I love these arguments that go like this:

A: Hey, this thing does not make sense to me! Shouldn't it be like X?

B: No, that thing is explicitly defined as Y.

A: Well wait, I think it should be like X, right? Why should it be Y?

B: Well, it is Y, by design, and here are the reasons.

A: Yeah, but it makes more sense to me if it's X, so shouldn't it be X?

B: *bangs head on keyboard*

C: *makes meta post describing frustration with quality of forum posts*

I think I found the 'C' post.

LaintalAy

Malyore wrote: »

It's not just the loot gold, but also reward gold. The gold from crafting surveys is not freely looted, it's a reward for providing items you made. Yet that gold is boosted too. items you made. Yet that gold is boosted too.

Probably other places that I can't remember.
Bottom right-hand corner of the screen. It's the gold that appears there that is increased.

Crafting surveys don't drop gold.
Crafting writs drop rewards, one of which is gold

@ZOS_Icy

VisitHammerfell

[snip] All SOURCES

Source: generative force; a point of origin or procurement; the place something comes from or starts at, or the cause of something

Gold from quests and kills and treasure chests is generated by the player, therefore it is a source. An item is not direct gold, the gold comes from a merchant, which is not a source, 2 degrees of separation.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

furiouslog

Malyore wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

I love these arguments that go like this:

A: Hey, this thing does not make sense to me! Shouldn't it be like X?

B: No, that thing is explicitly defined as Y.

A: Well wait, I think it should be like X, right? Why should it be Y?

B: Well, it is Y, by design, and here are the reasons.

A: Yeah, but it makes more sense to me if it's X, so shouldn't it be X?

B: *bangs head on keyboard*

C: *makes meta post describing frustration with quality of forum posts*

It is silly isn't it, especially how it can go both ways because I feel like B in this situation. I don't understand how I'm not making sense. I can't see the disagreement that something that generates gold into the game and thereby raising the total number of gold throughout all of ESO is not considered a gold source.

Like, if hypothetically the total sum of all gold that exists between all the players in ESO totals out to 1 thousand gold, then no matter how much player-selling/trading happens, that 1k total gold stays the same number. If players are selling items to each other, the gold just gets moved around and the total in all of the game isn't rising. That's not a generation, aka a source. But then suppose a player earns a quest reward and is given 100 gold. Now the total gold number in all of ESO throughout all the players and servers is 1,100. Gold has been generated, it has been sourced into the game. It did not exist before that quest reward. This is agreed upon by the community and the event. Now suppose another player loots a treasure chest and they find 100 gold in the chest. Once again, gold has been sourced into the totality of the game and the total amount of gold in all of ESO is 1,200. Again, there seems to be agreement that this is sourced. Now someone sells an item for 100 gold to an NPC merchant. Where does this gold come from? Is it not being sourced into the game? If it's not being sourced, then how? Please please please explain to me how it's not being sourced. Because after that item is sold in this hypothetical situation, the total amount of gold in all of ESO would rise to 1,300. Yet people keep saying that's not gold generation and they don't explain a valid reason how it's not. If selling to NPCs creates brand new gold into the game as if they were a printer, just the same as quests and looting do, that's quite literally a source of gold. This is the focus of all my thinking about this.

I've already gotten a lot of my answers, but this one I'm still not getting. To me what's going on in the event is that this source is being excluded for reasons, but I cannot yet see NPC selling as plainly just not being a source of gold when held up to that hypothetical explanation.

I can sense frustration. Look, Kevin already defined what a "source" is. Once that's explained, everything else is just arguing about semantics. Yes, gathering items and selling them is a personal "source" of gold. But it's not included in the event. No one really knows why, and speculating about motivations offers no actionable path forward, other than to possibly become frustrated and froth at the mouth. I don't recommend that as a matter of maintaining an enjoyable lifestyle.

I was once doing an audit of a 70 million dollar refinery project, and was going over the accounting with the project manager, who was a sort of old boy Cajun guy. The project had a pretty big overrun. I kept asking this and that, trying to get to the bottom of how the money flowed, and he said in a thick southern Louisiana accent, "Furious (my actual name is not furiouslog but let's pretend), don't you worry about all them little numbah! It all turn out okay." Mind you, I was still being paid to get to the bottom of it, but right here, you are doing an awful lot of hand-wringing and deep dive examination for zero personal benefit. In short: maybe don't worry about all of those little numbers, you're gonna be just fine.

Malyore

LaintalAy wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

It's not just the loot gold, but also reward gold. The gold from crafting surveys is not freely looted, it's a reward for providing items you made. Yet that gold is boosted too. items you made. Yet that gold is boosted too.

Probably other places that I can't remember.
Bottom right-hand corner of the screen. It's the gold that appears there that is increased.

Crafting surveys don't drop gold.
Crafting writs drop rewards, one of which is gold

@ZOS_Icy

Whoops, meant writs. Not surveys

Malyore

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

[snip] All SOURCES

Source: generative force; a point of origin or procurement; the place something comes from or starts at, or the cause of something

Correct. See my earlier replies for reference.

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

Gold from quests and kills and treasure chests is generated by the player, therefore it is a source. An item is not direct gold, the gold comes from a merchant, which is not a source, 2 degrees of separation.

Interesting perspective. So you're saying the player itself is the cause of the origin for gold to be spawned into the world, NOT the quest rewarder or the chest or whatever else it may be? And with that distinction, merchant selling would be the merchant generating the gold, which they then share with the player, so it doesn't count?

VisitHammerfell

Malyore wrote: »

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

[snip] All SOURCES

Source: generative force; a point of origin or procurement; the place something comes from or starts at, or the cause of something

Correct. See my earlier replies for reference.

VisitHammerfell wrote: »

Gold from quests and kills and treasure chests is generated by the player, therefore it is a source. An item is not direct gold, the gold comes from a merchant, which is not a source, 2 degrees of separation.

Interesting perspective. So you're saying the player itself is the cause of the origin for gold to be spawned into the world, NOT the quest rewarder or the chest or whatever else it may be? And with that distinction, merchant selling would be the merchant generating the gold, which they then share with the player, so it doesn't count?

Well it is the player killing or turning in a quest or opening a chest. Gold itself is generated directly by that. Selling an item is not generating gold, it is more "trading" the item to the NPC and them "trading" you gold. Gold is not an item. If you pick up a treasure, it is just a treasure, it is not gold. Let's pick a random treasure, Brass Monkey. If you found a Brass Monkey in an urn, you found one in an urn, you didn't find gold. There was no gold generated. The Brass Monkey being picked out of the urn was the source, so the source is gone. And once again, it is gold from sources, not from sales. If it was from all transactions we would have double trial plunder

virtus753

LaintalAy wrote: »

That said, I'm not sure how gold contained in 'Hidden Treasure' bags is handled by these events.

I just got 484 gold from one of Mirri's Hidden Treasure bags. I don't recall seeing that much, and UESP lists 240 as the maximum gold amount possible. (I have not tested this very much, so I can't really confirm this. Sometimes UESP is right; sometimes it's wrong.)

I'm on an Imperial (1%) with maxed Gilded Fingers (10%) and Fortune's Favor (50%), plus ESO+. If I'm understanding it right, it looks like Imperial and the event count for the gold from these bags, but nothing else. The gold bonus works multiplicatively with other bonuses, not additively like the event description says (confirmed with daily writs), so 101% * 240 = 242 for the Imperial, then x 2 for the event bonus = 484. At least that's my initial impression.

Malyore

furiouslog wrote: »

I can sense frustration. Look, Kevin already defined what a "source" is. Once that's explained, everything else is just arguing about semantics. Yes, gathering items and selling them is a personal "source" of gold. But it's not included in the event. No one really knows why, and speculating about motivations offers no actionable path forward, other than to possibly become frustrated and froth at the mouth. I don't recommend that as a matter of maintaining an enjoyable lifestyle.

I was once doing an audit of a 70 million dollar refinery project, and was going over the accounting with the project manager, who was a sort of old boy Cajun guy. The project had a pretty big overrun. I kept asking this and that, trying to get to the bottom of how the money flowed, and he said in a thick southern Louisiana accent, "Furious (my actual name is not furiouslog but let's pretend), don't you worry about all them little numbah! It all turn out okay." Mind you, I was still being paid to get to the bottom of it, but right here, you are doing an awful lot of hand-wringing and deep dive examination for zero personal benefit. In short: maybe don't worry about all of those little numbers, you're gonna be just fine.

Oh I know I'm gonna be just fine. Back in my OP I even said it's just a videogame and is still a free event with free loot and all that. Now I'm simply to the point where I'm curious where other folks distinctions in gold sources are, and why mine is inconceivable to so many. Some of the more recent replies have provided some interesting interpretations, and I can see now there are multiple lenses to look though when using the same definition.

I'm glad that you can at least see how I think merchant selling is a source of gold when looking at the numbers of ESOs overall economy. As I said I've already accepted that it's not part of the event. I just sought why, regardless of any event, people disagreed about the merchant source concept. And I have gotten some answers that get me thinking and stepping away from from that lens of economy that I was locked in.

ESO_player123

Malyore wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

I can sense frustration. Look, Kevin already defined what a "source" is. Once that's explained, everything else is just arguing about semantics. Yes, gathering items and selling them is a personal "source" of gold. But it's not included in the event. No one really knows why, and speculating about motivations offers no actionable path forward, other than to possibly become frustrated and froth at the mouth. I don't recommend that as a matter of maintaining an enjoyable lifestyle.

I was once doing an audit of a 70 million dollar refinery project, and was going over the accounting with the project manager, who was a sort of old boy Cajun guy. The project had a pretty big overrun. I kept asking this and that, trying to get to the bottom of how the money flowed, and he said in a thick southern Louisiana accent, "Furious (my actual name is not furiouslog but let's pretend), don't you worry about all them little numbah! It all turn out okay." Mind you, I was still being paid to get to the bottom of it, but right here, you are doing an awful lot of hand-wringing and deep dive examination for zero personal benefit. In short: maybe don't worry about all of those little numbers, you're gonna be just fine.

Oh I know I'm gonna be just fine. Back in my OP I even said it's just a videogame and is still a free event with free loot and all that. Now I'm simply to the point where I'm curious where other folks distinctions in gold sources are, and why mine is inconceivable to so many. Some of the more recent replies have provided some interesting interpretations, and I can see now there are multiple lenses to look though when using the same definition.

I'm glad that you can at least see how I think merchant selling is a source of gold when looking at the numbers of ESOs overall economy. As I said I've already accepted that it's not part of the event. I just sought why, regardless of any event, people disagreed about the merchant source concept.

I think most people in this thread, myself included, cannot understand your point of view because in most videogames gold generated by trade is not considered "loot" (something stolen, taken from the remains of a monster, picked up from a container) or "reward" (gold from a quest or an activity) - something that can be doubled as a result of promotion or an event (I wrote "in most videogames" because may be there are some outliers). It's just sort of commonly accepted thing.

furiouslog

Malyore wrote: »

furiouslog wrote: »

I can sense frustration. Look, Kevin already defined what a "source" is. Once that's explained, everything else is just arguing about semantics. Yes, gathering items and selling them is a personal "source" of gold. But it's not included in the event. No one really knows why, and speculating about motivations offers no actionable path forward, other than to possibly become frustrated and froth at the mouth. I don't recommend that as a matter of maintaining an enjoyable lifestyle.

I was once doing an audit of a 70 million dollar refinery project, and was going over the accounting with the project manager, who was a sort of old boy Cajun guy. The project had a pretty big overrun. I kept asking this and that, trying to get to the bottom of how the money flowed, and he said in a thick southern Louisiana accent, "Furious (my actual name is not furiouslog but let's pretend), don't you worry about all them little numbah! It all turn out okay." Mind you, I was still being paid to get to the bottom of it, but right here, you are doing an awful lot of hand-wringing and deep dive examination for zero personal benefit. In short: maybe don't worry about all of those little numbers, you're gonna be just fine.

Oh I know I'm gonna be just fine. Back in my OP I even said it's just a videogame and is still a free event with free loot and all that. Now I'm simply to the point where I'm curious where other folks distinctions in gold sources are, and why mine is inconceivable to so many. Some of the more recent replies have provided some interesting interpretations, and I can see now there are multiple lenses to look though when using the same definition.

I'm glad that you can at least see how I think merchant selling is a source of gold when looking at the numbers of ESOs overall economy. As I said I've already accepted that it's not part of the event. I just sought why, regardless of any event, people disagreed about the merchant source concept. And I have gotten some answers that get me thinking and stepping away from from that lens of economy that I was locked in.

I was thinking about this today, and I figured that it was an economics versus a videogame thing. FWIW, I get the economics perspective, and actually agree with it. But, again, it's purely a matter of definition and what experiential background one has. What frustrates me is that when I can see that people are talking around each other due to definitional differences and never seem to acknowledge that it's going on, well, that's basically a personal hell for me, I guess.

katanagirl1

Interesting discussion here. I thought I completely understood it until the comparison of trading an item to an npc vendor with trading crafting writ items to the writ box. It really is a similar process. So I can now see why he makes this point.

It just is what it is, I guess. I never really thought about it before.

EdjeSwift

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Interesting discussion here. I thought I completely understood it until the comparison of trading an item to an npc vendor with trading crafting writ items to the writ box. It really is a similar process. So I can now see why he makes this point.

It just is what it is, I guess. I never really thought about it before.

They're two different processes. One is a quest while the other is a basic transaction. They may appear similar but they're completely different beasts.

ESO_player123

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Interesting discussion here. I thought I completely understood it until the comparison of trading an item to an npc vendor with trading crafting writ items to the writ box. It really is a similar process. So I can now see why he makes this point.

It just is what it is, I guess. I never really thought about it before.

You are not trading anything to the writ box. You are getting a reward for doing a quest.

Bucky_13

Malyore wrote: »

LannStone wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

Once again there is an event going on in ESO that claims all in-game gold gains are doubled. But once again, selling or fencing treasure items is not being effected by this boost. Is this a bug? [snip] Or am I misunderstanding what gold sources are?

[snip]

I think for a game to say "Find double gold from all game sources" then to intentionally not provide that... is deceptive. Someone here clarified that ZOS reps have said that treasure, an item which its only purpose as far as I know is to sell/fence to game merchants for gold, is not considered a source of gold from this game. (Maybe I'm using treasure items wrong. What do y'all do with your treasure? Hope the guards don't find out I've been buying items with not-gold this whole time.)

Good to know what is considered sources here, but I don't think that's just a misunderstanding on my end.
All in all, it's really not a big deal. It's still a free event with free laurels and just a videogame. [snip] The events seem to have that issue a often. I remember the same thing happened with the crafting events writ vouchers. If this event simply said "Find double gold from quest rewards and monster kills" then it wouldn't feel like there's a bug going on.

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

You don't find the gold from a merchant, you trade it from them in exchange for goods.

barney2525

LunaFlora wrote: »

By the way the event post says:
"+100% gold earned from monster kills, quest rewards, and similar sources"

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/66063

so it is already quite clear.

Oh sure.

Bringing in Facts to a discussion is Not fair.

LunaFlora

barney2525 wrote: »

LunaFlora wrote: »

By the way the event post says:
"+100% gold earned from monster kills, quest rewards, and similar sources"

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/66063

so it is already quite clear.

Oh sure.

Bringing in Facts to a discussion is Not fair.

what?

katanagirl1

ESO_player123 wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Interesting discussion here. I thought I completely understood it until the comparison of trading an item to an npc vendor with trading crafting writ items to the writ box. It really is a similar process. So I can now see why he makes this point.

It just is what it is, I guess. I never really thought about it before.

You are not trading anything to the writ box. You are getting a reward for doing a quest.

Ah, that’s it! A quest defines the process and differentiates the two. Thanks for the insight.

katanagirl1

EdjeSwift wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

Interesting discussion here. I thought I completely understood it until the comparison of trading an item to an npc vendor with trading crafting writ items to the writ box. It really is a similar process. So I can now see why he makes this point.

It just is what it is, I guess. I never really thought about it before.

They're two different processes. One is a quest while the other is a basic transaction. They may appear similar but they're completely different beasts.

Yes I see the difference now. Thanks for the post.