Ward Changes are a huge QoL improvement in PvE!

RomanRex · May 21

Thank you for this much-needed change to Hardened Ward.

As a multi-year mag sorc main, playing solo content without pets (or even certain group content) was often frustrating.

After some time away, I returned to experience these changes, and it has been phenomenal! I can now diversify my playstyle. I am trying new builds and using other skills where those pets took up two spots on both weapon bars.

Thank you, ZoS!

Yamenstein · May 21

Yep sorcerer reallly need the buffs. They couldn’t solo without them.

Major_Toughness · May 21

So this skill is so overpowered you dropped 2 heals just for Hardened Ward now?

Definitely needs a nerf.

JanTanhide · May 21

Agree 100%. Much needed change to Hardened Ward for PVE!

RomanRex · May 21

Major_Toughness wrote: »

So this skill is so overpowered you dropped 2 heals just for Hardened Ward now?

Definitely needs a nerf.

Drop one heal (Matriarch) and one dps skill (Familiar) on both bars.

This is a PvE discussion. Why would you demand a nerf for PvE purposes?

xylena_lazarow · May 21

Hardened Ward completely destroys competitive balance in PvP where you now have a spec with no weaknesses, a highly mobile ranged nuke that is also a tank with 1 funny button for survival. Obviously weaker players enjoy that it makes the game "easy" but so would literal god mode and you know darn well people would try to defend that too.

RomanRex · May 21

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Hardened Ward completely destroys competitive balance in PvP where you now have a spec with no weaknesses, a highly mobile ranged nuke that is also a tank with 1 funny button for survival. Obviously weaker players enjoy that it makes the game "easy" but so would literal god mode and you know darn well people would try to defend that too.

There is a thread for that with plenty of disagreement. This is a PvE directed thread.

Ward changes for PvE players have been a huge QoL improvement.

xylena_lazarow · May 21

RomanRex wrote: »

Ward changes for PvE players have been a huge QoL improvement.

Surely there are ways to help casual PvE Sorc players without destroying competitive PvP.

If only we had a one second cast time spell, that would do AoE splash damage and a knockdown stun from range, that casual Sorc players could use against trash mob packs or spam on bosses in their Daily Random Normals. Oh wait we used to have that, it was called Crystal Blast, casuals loved it, no effect on competitive, inexplicably deleted from the game.

Necrotech_Master · May 21

RomanRex wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Hardened Ward completely destroys competitive balance in PvP where you now have a spec with no weaknesses, a highly mobile ranged nuke that is also a tank with 1 funny button for survival. Obviously weaker players enjoy that it makes the game "easy" but so would literal god mode and you know darn well people would try to defend that too.

There is a thread for that with plenty of disagreement. This is a PvE directed thread.

Ward changes for PvE players have been a huge QoL improvement.

it feels like this thread was made almost as a spite to that thread lol

to keep the post on topic though, since skills dont have different "variants" for pve and pvp, a proper discussion really needs to talk about both

a similar case is NB, its considered OP in pvp due to ganking, but its comparable role in pve, dps, its seen as moderate to underpowered (though its certainly not always OP in pvp if its not built/played correctly)

i would say ward is similar, though its a more limited case than an entire class lol, its definitely more OP in pvp, is it fine for pve? possibly, its a bit harder to tell because NPCs wont ever complain a player is unkillable lol, but if it trivializes or makes certain content significantly easier than before, then its probably a bit OP there too

i dont even use hardened ward on my sorc since i run that character more as a pve healer and ward doesnt help allies lol

Dracane · May 21

RomanRex wrote: »

Thank you for this much-needed change to Hardened Ward.

As a multi-year mag sorc main, playing solo content without pets (or even certain group content) was often frustrating.

After some time away, I returned to experience these changes, and it has been phenomenal! I can now diversify my playstyle. I am trying new builds and using other skills where those pets took up two spots on both weapon bars.

Thank you, ZoS!

It helped a good bit in pve tanking. I run either without pets now, or use the Matriarch instead if I need to support my group.
The increase to shield strength they did a while back; I do not notice in pve. Tooltip looks the same as it did 2 years ago.

It feels almost unplayable when Hardened Ward suddenly does not heal you anymore (with pet equipped) it was a much needed buff.
Although I think it should have been executed a bit differently.

7% direct heal instead of 15%, and then an extra few % heal over 3 seconds or so, to prevent spamming in pvp. As long as the heal stays in some form, it will be fine.

RomanRex · May 21

I brought up PvE considerations in that post, but was told it was PvP focused. I can see their point. Thus, I wanted to make a thread emphasizing how great these changes have been for people who do difficult solo content like IA or arenas. Purely PvE focused for those who don’t (or seldom) play PvP.

The only in-class burst heal available to sorcs before this was dependent on pets. This pigeon-holed play style. These changes have opened up diversity in how mag sorcs can approach PvE solo and group play, how most of the player base seem to spend their time. Experimenting with new builds has been a lot of fun and reinvigorated my enjoyment of the game.

RomanRex · May 21

Dracane wrote: »

It helped a good bit in pve tanking. I run either without pets now, or use the Matriarch instead if I need to support my group.

I agree that the changes have made a big improvement in sorc tank builds. I have been doing a lot more tanking since the change and enjoying it a lot.

Maybe we will see a bump in sorc tanks now and the issues with tank shortages will at least improve a little. 🙂

WhiteCoatSyndrome · May 21

As a Sorc main I have enjoyed the new Hardened Ward. I never like using the pets.

Dracane · May 21

RomanRex wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It helped a good bit in pve tanking. I run either without pets now, or use the Matriarch instead if I need to support my group.

I agree that the changes have made a big improvement in sorc tank builds. I have been doing a lot more tanking since the change and enjoying it a lot.

Maybe we will see a bump in sorc tanks now and the issues with tank shortages will at least improve a little. 🙂

I am immensly grateful to ZoS for doing so much for Sorcerer lately. The class has been neglected for so many years, and now it seems they do the exact changes I wouldn't have been bold enough to request in even my fiercest Sorc activist days on the forums.

The heal on ward might need a small shifting in power from a burst heal to a smaller direct heal to a larger heal over time, as I described in my earlier comment, but this won't harm pve. I don't spam the ward there.

Dracane · May 21

RomanRex wrote: »

I brought up PvE considerations in that post, but was told it was PvP focused. I can see their point. Thus, I wanted to make a thread emphasizing how great these changes have been for people who do difficult solo content like IA or arenas. Purely PvE focused for those who don’t (or seldom) play PvP.

The only in-class burst heal available to sorcs before this was dependent on pets. This pigeon-holed play style. These changes have opened up diversity in how mag sorcs can approach PvE solo and group play, how most of the player base seem to spend their time. Experimenting with new builds has been a lot of fun and reinvigorated my enjoyment of the game.

It's not as big a deal as it's made out to be. People are angry that Magsorc is not the easiest push over anymore. But I also think it's not optimal in its current iteration. ZoS had the right fought, it just has to be balanced in a way that keeps it relevant for all content, without being too much.

xylena_lazarow · May 22

Dracane wrote: »

It's not as big a deal as it's made out to be.

It's not a big deal for casual PvP and nobody actually cares that much that mid Sorcs are tanky, but it renders many competitive matchups pointless, like you need to all agree to just not use Ward, nobody wants to have to have a "Rule Zero" conversation before every fight with a Sorc.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

it feels like this thread was made almost as a spite to that thread lol

It's 100% that, the op has not made a single post in good faith, but at least some of the other posters ITT have.

Dracane · May 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It's not as big a deal as it's made out to be.

It's not a big deal for casual PvP, but it renders many competitive matchups pointless, like you basically need to all agree to just not use Ward, nobody wants to have to have a "Rule Zero" conversation before every fight with a Sorc.

I know your stance.
Yet I would not use custom 1v1s as parameter to balance anything; ever. Defensive abilities are always balanced in such a way that they can withstand getting hit by multiple foes, which is how pvp is designed. It's designed around Cyrodiil and battlegrounds. So in a 1v1 situation, defensive tools/heals are generally too strong. Which, as you know, is the reason why most 1v1s last extremely long.

Ward is exactly where it has to be for pvp, seeing as Magsorc went from almost unplayable at times, to now being up there with other strong classes. Now like I said; I think the heal on Ward should lean more towards a HoT than a burst heal. If you want to call 7.5% of your HP a burst heal.

xylena_lazarow · May 22

Dracane wrote: »

Yet I would not use custom 1v1s as perimeter to balance anything

Who said anything about custom 1v1s? Not me. Pretty much any competitive matchup outside ball group GvG that involves a shield Sorc. Cyro smallscale, BGs, or even just dealing with tryhards in zergs. Also I think you meant "parameter."

Dracane · May 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Yet I would not use custom 1v1s as perimeter to balance anything

Who said anything about custom 1v1s? Not me. Pretty much any competitive matchup outside ball group GvG that involves a shield Sorc. Cyro smallscale, BGs, or even just dealing with tryhards in zergs. Also I think you meant "parameter."

It's as you say, thanks.
It does not matter whether it's a Wayrest 1v1 or one that comes to be organically; pvp will never, and has never been balanced around it.

I can't think of a single patch besides 1.6, where defense didn't vastly overshadow offense. Surviving in competitive fights was always easier than killing, in my opinion. I consider it a pointless argument, because there is plenty of strong defense, and now Sorc has one too. It needs to be added every time though that I also think the heal of ward should be altered to prevent spam.

RomanRex · May 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's 100% that, the op has not made a single post in good faith, but at least some of the other posters ITT have.

100% not that. 🙂 This whole thread is in “good faith” and I would like it to stay positive.

I created this thread to discuss how these changes have been a huge blessing for those who play in PvE settings. If someone wants to talk about the impact it has had on PvP, there is a thread going for that. It isn’t the topic I am focusing on here.

Many sorcs (including myself) have been able to explore new builds and new skills with the recent update. I am super grateful for the Hardened Ward change and other recent adjustments within the class.

xylena_lazarow · May 22

Dracane wrote: »

It needs to be added every time though that I also think the heal of ward should be altered to prevent spam.

That's how Impervious on Arc is. You first need to charge up Crux, then it's single use, no Crux no heal.

Agreed, I'm fine keeping a conditional healing component, it's plenty fair on Arc.

Dracane · May 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It needs to be added every time though that I also think the heal of ward should be altered to prevent spam.

That's how Impervious on Arc is. You first need to charge up Crux, then it's single use, no Crux no heal.

Agreed, I'm fine keeping a conditional healing component, it's plenty fair on Arc.

How would you say such a conditional component could look? Sorcerer has no deeper mechanic like Crux ongoing.
I think the heal should just be spread out more than being so up front. From my experience, the issue is Sorcs spamming the ward repeatedly to get heal after heal. If this gets turned into a HoT, it would reduce much of the complaint.

Regardless; I want to hear your thoughts.

xylena_lazarow · May 22

Dracane wrote: »

How would you say such a conditional component could look?

Resto Healing Ward would be another example, where the heal is conditional on hp when cast. The heal could go on cooldown like the initial burst damage from DK Eruption goes on a 10sec cooldown.

Scaling changes are an option. Could make the heal smaller, could scale it only off max hp never max mag, so it stays strong enough for PvE tanks, while PvP MagSorcs get the big shield but only a nominal heal.

There's really a lot of possibilities for resolving this. It's the devs' job to figure out the best possible solution.

Dracane · May 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

How would you say such a conditional component could look?

Resto Healing Ward would be another example, where the heal is conditional on hp when cast. The heal could go on cooldown like the initial burst damage from DK Eruption goes on a 10sec cooldown.

Scaling changes are an option. Could make the heal smaller, could scale it only off max hp never max mag, so it stays strong enough for PvE tanks, while PvP MagSorcs get the big shield but only a nominal heal.

There's really a lot of possibilities for resolving this. It's the devs' job to figure out the best possible solution.

Like I said; as long as the heal stays in one way or the other; preferably consistent and reliable, I am fine with whatever.
I never thought that Magsorc should have that much healing. The shield should just be strong enough to hold its own.

Still, I am pleased to see more Sorcs embrace a 1 shield build instead of shield stacking. (Which I considered way more obnoxious than what Hardened Ward is now.) It was healthy for the class overall. Both pve and pvp.

FlopsyPrince · May 22

I play a Pet Sorc main because I really want a Warcraft-style hunter class and this is the closest I can get. Taking up 2 spots is annoying, but I live with it. Not the same thing, but as close as I can get. I won't drop those just for a revised Hardened Ward.

IncultaWolf · May 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Hardened Ward completely destroys competitive balance in PvP where you now have a spec with no weaknesses, a highly mobile ranged nuke that is also a tank with 1 funny button for survival. Obviously weaker players enjoy that it makes the game "easy" but so would literal god mode and you know darn well people would try to defend that too.

I love the OP funny button. 🌝 But it definitely needs a nerf/adjustments. Like changing it to a heal over time instead of burst heal. I use to get on my nightblade in pvp if I wanted to play easy mode with my brain turned off, but now I choose magicka sorcerer for that this patch. I can just spam ward and ignore combat mechanics and ultimates.

xylena_lazarow · May 22

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I can just spam ward and ignore combat mechanics and ultimates

Huge QoL improvement for PvP Sorcerors!

RomanRex · May 22

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I use to get on my nightblade in pvp if I wanted to play easy mode with my brain turned off, but now I choose magicka sorcerer for that this patch.

That’s neat, but there is a thread for that. Have any meaningful observations for PvE?

I created this thread to focus on PvE and don’t want it derailed with PvP complaints. Many players who seldom or never play PvP have found this change to be a big QoL improvement in PvE.

Dracane · May 22

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I can just spam ward and ignore combat mechanics and ultimates.

Are there so many low burst foes wandering about? I always found Magsorcs the easiest class to burst down, more so now where not all of them shieldstack anymore, and because so many Sorcs believe that a meager 50k magicka is high.

I run around with 67k-73k magicka depending on my sets and food. This is a ward that can fend for itself.

But I want to follow OP's wishes and let it rest.
The changes have been a great aid in solo content, and I feel more confident to drop Annulment as a pve tank.
I have become a much better supporter for my team, not just a mere sponge that wards all damage. We have so many build options now for Magsorc tank, although I won't claim they are as impactful as, say, a DK or Arcanist.

xylena_lazarow · May 22

RomanRex wrote: »

Have any meaningful observations for PvE?

I do yes. This is a skill primarily for PvE tanks, correct? Why does the heal need to scale with max mag? If the heal always scaled exclusively with max hp, it would remain strong for PvE tanks, remain usable for random casual PvE, and be a significantly lower value on PvP DDs, forcing a fair tradeoff between max mag and max hp.

Dracane · May 22

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

RomanRex wrote: »

Have any meaningful observations for PvE?

I do yes. This is a skill primarily for PvE tanks, correct? Why does the heal need to scale with max mag? If the heal always scaled exclusively with max hp, it would remain strong for PvE tanks, remain usable for random casual PvE, and be a significantly lower value on PvP DDs, forcing a fair tradeoff between max mag and max hp.

The heal scales with your maximum HP, not max magicka.

The ward can scale with max magicka if it's higher than your HP, but the heal will never. 15% of your HP in pve, or half that in pvp.