End RNG in games

Mathius_Mordred

In so many games, including ESO, many activities and rewards are governed by an RNG (Random Number Generator). For example in ESO killing a delve boss for a lead, you may be lucky and get it on the first try or you may have to sit around waiting for it to respawn once every 4 minutes and kill it 20 times to get the lead (that's over an hour sitting and waiting), I've heard of some cases where it took 300 attempts. People have told me it's so you spend more time in the game than you would anyway, but I don't need an RNG to keep me in the game, I love playing the game and would be here anyway doing something I enjoy, what I don't love is sitting around for hours waiting for some delve monster to respawn so I can kill it in 15 seconds hoping this will be the time the lead drops.

There has to be a better way, and for me, that would be a guaranteed drop, end RNG entirely. I don't see any point in it, this is not something we are paying real money for like Crown Crates or lock boxes, I understand why those things have gamble mechanics in them. Adding RNG to something like a lead or a weapon drop does not increase enjoyment, it detracts from enjoyment.

If necessary add the very best leads or weapons behind more difficult content, but a reduced stat version behind easy content. For example, Maelstrom staff on normal gives lower stat bonuses than if earned on veteran difficulty. A lead from a delve boss gives a lower stat version of a mythic than the same lead from an associated veteran dungeon boss, that sort of thing, I don't care how it's done but I really wish that useful items for gameplay were not locked behind an RNG.

What do you guys think?

LaintalAy

Read up on Automated Policy.

RNG is just another resource. How it is used may depend on many other factors.

FluffyBird

I do love me some spicy RNG, but I love it will a cool soothing glass of pity system.

And I'd rather have some RNG than unyielding "do 150 dailies or no reward" farm. I want 150 dailies to be the worst case, not a requirement, and for me RNG would make something I don't enjoy more bearable.

Mathius_Mordred

FluffyBird wrote: »

I do love me some spicy RNG, but I love it will a cool soothing glass of pity system.

And I'd rather have some RNG than unyielding "do 150 dailies or no reward" farm. I want 150 dailies to be the worst case, not a requirement, and for me RNG would make something I don't enjoy more bearable.

No that's not what I meant, I mean you get it after doing something, so do something get version 1 of the reward, do something harder get version 2 of the reward, the harder the content the better version you get. No RNG, no doing something 150 times.

FluffyBird

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

I do love me some spicy RNG, but I love it will a cool soothing glass of pity system.

And I'd rather have some RNG than unyielding "do 150 dailies or no reward" farm. I want 150 dailies to be the worst case, not a requirement, and for me RNG would make something I don't enjoy more bearable.

No that's not what I meant, I mean you get it after doing something, so do something get version 1 of the reward, do something harder get version 2 of the reward, the harder the content the better version you get. No RNG, no doing something 150 times.

But then everyone would just do something once and will be done with it, farm whole game in a week and then what?
And say, a boss drops some gear, a lead, a rare resource: should they just drop all on the first kill?

Mathius_Mordred

FluffyBird wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

I do love me some spicy RNG, but I love it will a cool soothing glass of pity system.

And I'd rather have some RNG than unyielding "do 150 dailies or no reward" farm. I want 150 dailies to be the worst case, not a requirement, and for me RNG would make something I don't enjoy more bearable.

No that's not what I meant, I mean you get it after doing something, so do something get version 1 of the reward, do something harder get version 2 of the reward, the harder the content the better version you get. No RNG, no doing something 150 times.

But then everyone would just do something once and will be done with it, farm whole game in a week and then what?
And say, a boss drops some gear, a lead, a rare resource: should they just drop all on the first kill?

No not at all, if you read what I suggested, the easy farm would be a lower stat version of the mythic for example, say you just have to kill delve bosses to get all the Oakensoul leads, but the resulting mythic had only half the stats that it currently does. Now, if you get the drop from the last boss of a veteran dungeon then this gives you the current mythic we have today. We could go further then and have the perfected version of the lead drop from a vet trial boss HM to give a perfected Oakensoul which would have an extra line of stats. So whilst most people would be able to get the basic version of Oakensoul quite quickly they will have to improve and up their game to get the perfected version. There, no RNG involved, just getting good at the game if you want the very best rewards.

FluffyBird

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

I do love me some spicy RNG, but I love it will a cool soothing glass of pity system.

And I'd rather have some RNG than unyielding "do 150 dailies or no reward" farm. I want 150 dailies to be the worst case, not a requirement, and for me RNG would make something I don't enjoy more bearable.

No that's not what I meant, I mean you get it after doing something, so do something get version 1 of the reward, do something harder get version 2 of the reward, the harder the content the better version you get. No RNG, no doing something 150 times.

But then everyone would just do something once and will be done with it, farm whole game in a week and then what?
And say, a boss drops some gear, a lead, a rare resource: should they just drop all on the first kill?

No not at all, if you read what I suggested, the easy farm would be a lower stat version of the mythic for example, say you just have to kill delve bosses to get all the Oakensoul leads, but the resulting mythic had only half the stats that it currently does. Now, if you get the drop from the last boss of a veteran dungeon then this gives you the current mythic we have today. We could go further then and have the perfected version of the lead drop from a vet trial boss HM to give a perfected Oakensoul which would have an extra line of stats. So whilst most people would be bale to get the basic version of Oakensoul quite quickly they will have to improve and up their game to get the perfected version. There, no RNG involved, just getting good at the game if you want the very best rewards.

So, you want the lead guaranteed, but of different quality, I get it. I'm asking what about bosses that can drop several rare items? Should they drop them all at once?

Mathius_Mordred

FluffyBird wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

I do love me some spicy RNG, but I love it will a cool soothing glass of pity system.

And I'd rather have some RNG than unyielding "do 150 dailies or no reward" farm. I want 150 dailies to be the worst case, not a requirement, and for me RNG would make something I don't enjoy more bearable.

No that's not what I meant, I mean you get it after doing something, so do something get version 1 of the reward, do something harder get version 2 of the reward, the harder the content the better version you get. No RNG, no doing something 150 times.

But then everyone would just do something once and will be done with it, farm whole game in a week and then what?
And say, a boss drops some gear, a lead, a rare resource: should they just drop all on the first kill?

No not at all, if you read what I suggested, the easy farm would be a lower stat version of the mythic for example, say you just have to kill delve bosses to get all the Oakensoul leads, but the resulting mythic had only half the stats that it currently does. Now, if you get the drop from the last boss of a veteran dungeon then this gives you the current mythic we have today. We could go further then and have the perfected version of the lead drop from a vet trial boss HM to give a perfected Oakensoul which would have an extra line of stats. So whilst most people would be bale to get the basic version of Oakensoul quite quickly they will have to improve and up their game to get the perfected version. There, no RNG involved, just getting good at the game if you want the very best rewards.

So, you want the lead guaranteed, but of different quality, I get it. I'm asking what about bosses that can drop several rare items? Should they drop them all at once?

There are enough bosses to share leads around. I'm not coming up with the exact system that should be developed, just giving some suggestions, it doesn't have to be bosses, maybe some sort of zone completion, climbing to a high point, maxing a craft, whatever, the idea is to remove RNG and replace it with something fun.

DenverRalphy

Remove RNG, and you remove the thrill and exhilaration of accomplishment. Guaranteed outcomes are boring, or will become so very quickly.

Does RNG also produce frustration and angst? You betcha. But you can't have excitement and exhilaration without frustration and angst to contend with. Without the dichotomy, everything becomes linear and hum-drum.

Mathius_Mordred

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Remove RNG, and you remove the thrill and exhilaration of accomplishment. Guaranteed outcomes are boring, or will become so very quickly.

Does RNG also produce frustration and angst? You betcha. But you can't have excitement and exhilaration without frustration and angst to contend with. Without the dichotomy, everything becomes linear and hum-drum.

I couldn't disagree more.

RNG is mindless, what possible sense of achievement can you get by repeating the same thing over and over again until finally you receive the item? Real achievement requires skill and hard work, look at titles such as Godslayer, now THAT is an achievement. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, RNG changes that slightly to do the same thing over and over again and you may get a different result.

DenverRalphy

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Remove RNG, and you remove the thrill and exhilaration of accomplishment. Guaranteed outcomes are boring, or will become so very quickly.

Does RNG also produce frustration and angst? You betcha. But you can't have excitement and exhilaration without frustration and angst to contend with. Without the dichotomy, everything becomes linear and hum-drum.

I couldn't disagree more.

RNG is mindless, what possible sense of achievement can you get by repeating the same thing over and over again until finally you receive the item? Real achievement requires skill and hard work, look at titles such as Godslayer, now THAT is an achievement. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, RNG changes that slightly to do the same thing over and over again and you may get a different result.

And if you could simply follow a simple linear path of guaranteed outcomes to get to the Godslayer Achievement, then that achievement wouldn't be such a big deal now would it? All the time and effort put into getting your toon geared up to even attempt it is what makes it such an achievement. If you could just follow a simple "Do this, Get that" path, then it wouldn't mean squat.

Rikkadir

I agree.
And acquiring 'Perfect Roe' is another joke. Filleting 500+ fish, and nothing, zilch.
Good job I've got plenty river bait. lol
Thanks.

Mathius_Mordred

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Remove RNG, and you remove the thrill and exhilaration of accomplishment. Guaranteed outcomes are boring, or will become so very quickly.

Does RNG also produce frustration and angst? You betcha. But you can't have excitement and exhilaration without frustration and angst to contend with. Without the dichotomy, everything becomes linear and hum-drum.

I couldn't disagree more.

RNG is mindless, what possible sense of achievement can you get by repeating the same thing over and over again until finally you receive the item? Real achievement requires skill and hard work, look at titles such as Godslayer, now THAT is an achievement. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, RNG changes that slightly to do the same thing over and over again and you may get a different result.

And if you could simply follow a simple linear path of guaranteed outcomes to get to the Godslayer Achievement, then that achievement wouldn't be such a big deal now would it? All the time and effort put into getting your toon geared up to even attempt it is what makes it such an achievement. If you could just follow a simple "Do this, Get that" path, then it wouldn't mean squat.

You already are following a linear path of do this get that, the difference is that RNG adds a Do this---bang your head against a wall 500 times - get that.

I am honestly amazed that anyone would support RNG in games.

Nerouyn

FluffyBird wrote: »

But then everyone would just do something once and will be done with it, farm whole game in a week and then what?
And say, a boss drops some gear, a lead, a rare resource: should they just drop all on the first kill?

When City of Heroes launched it had no end-game, and people stuck around and played just because it was fun.

It had stellar retention.

IMO it boiled to three main things : random generation of content (instanced missions), high variability of player powerset combinations (every player character chose a primary and secondary powerset) and interesting interactions between player powers.

Because of those players didn't need an RNG carrot to make you repeat the same content ad nauseum until you got the desired reward.

Playing wasn't repetitive and provided the inherent reward of fun.

shadyjane62

Remove RNG and I will participate in the game more and do all events. As of now the frustration is Really not worth it.

I am retired. The grind is just another thankless job.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

What do you guys think?

In search of leads found out that if doesn't drop on 3rd try, use a different toon.

If you play your main enough going for leads every day for long perior, you will find that there is a 2 day window during the week which what ever you do, will gets what you were looking for.
For my main that is Wednesday - Thursday. After that using different toons.

Only time persisted with the same toon is the leads for the painted glass from the dragons.
Due to been dragons and not some world boss, had to use my tank.

Took 21 tries to get the first leads, 5 tries the second the day after and I am already on 7 tries for the 3rd lead so can unlock the item and buy as many as want from the Rimmen merchant. Because wanting to use at least 15 of them in several projects.

colossalvoids

There's no way around it in live service games, it's one of those "you think you want it but you don't" requests. It's became way less grindy last years so they're moving from just rng towards their minimum effort ones with daily guaranteed fragments, sticker book etc. but still requiring repeated participation based on what engagement levels they want.

thorwyn

What do you guys think?

Hard disagree.
ESO does not need less RNG. In my opinion, it needs more RNG. Chasing rare drops and farming stuff is a core element of this genre and players should be rewarded for patience and persistence. I understand that this is not for everyone, I understand that some people want to eliminate that part of the game. But there are PLENTY of games out there to chose from without any RNG, so there is no need to trivialize this one even more. Let's face it, with the introduction of the sticker book, the ability to mass produce any weapon/armor/jewelry you know and curated drops, ESO is already almost a casual game. All those things were a huge step into the wrong direction in my books.
Back in the days, finding your Mother's Sorrow destro staff or your Maelstrom destro staff actually meant something. You even had to think about which char would get it instead of creating a whole bunch and equip your last crafting alt with BIS gear.
Guaranteed drops would just be a participation trophy. If that was the case, you might as well just make everything craftable. Saves even more time.

Necrotech_Master

RNG is fine, but having alternative methods to get it, or a pity system would be the most ideal

like gear curation is the perfect example of a pity system, its still RNG if your looking for a particular item you havent collected, but you know that there is only a finite number of runs you have to do to eventually have everything from the zone/dungeon/trial

an alternative is what we see with the infinite archive weekly rotation vendor, this allows you to get leads, treasure maps, public dungeon collectibles, etc without the hassle of RNG on the specific element, your only RNG is if it shows up on the rotation vendor, but then you can just buy it with saved currency instead of "mindless grinding" 1 activity

FluffyBird

Nerouyn wrote: »

IMO it boiled to three main things : random generation of content (instanced missions)

Still RNG! See? (just kidding)

I'm afraid I have nothing else to add to the discussion as it is aimed more towards those who dislike RNG and I struggle to even pick a game I like that does not have RNG. Strange Horticulture, I guess. But you probably never heard about it

Alpheu5

thorwyn wrote: »

What do you guys think?

Hard disagree.
ESO does not need less RNG. In my opinion, it needs more RNG. Chasing rare drops and farming stuff is a core element of this genre and players should be rewarded for patience and persistence. I understand that this is not for everyone, I understand that some people want to eliminate that part of the game. But there are PLENTY of games out there to chose from without any RNG, so there is no need to trivialize this one even more. Let's face it, with the introduction of the sticker book, the ability to mass produce any weapon/armor/jewelry you know and curated drops, ESO is already almost a casual game. All those things were a huge step into the wrong direction in my books.
Back in the days, finding your Mother's Sorrow destro staff or your Maelstrom destro staff actually meant something. You even had to think about which char would get it instead of creating a whole bunch and equip your last crafting alt with BIS gear.
Guaranteed drops would just be a participation trophy. If that was the case, you might as well just make everything craftable. Saves even more time.

Unnecessary tedium doesn't make "getting there" feel better, it just makes you feel bad along the way. Many people run content they find unenjoyable in order to acquire items that they want to play with in the content they do find enjoyable, and extending the time they spend in the unenjoyable part of that process through artificial scarcity or extensive grind is massively disrespectful to the player.

For example, I guarantee we'd see many more complaints about the PVE/P split from the PVE side of things if PVE'ers couldn't bypass the PVP side of things by being able to outright buy powerful sets like Deadly and PA in guild traders at any time, a luxury not granted nearly as freely to PVP'ers for monster helms, trials sets, or arena weapons. There was massive praise when Vigor was changed to be unlocked early in the Assault line because, unsurprisingly, PVE'ers hated having to PVP extensively to unlock a skill they intended to use for PVE, and it meant they could spend less time doing the kind of content they disliked.

The stickerbook was a fantastic addition because it provided concrete progress toward a goal without outright handing you the victory. You may get a piece in 1 run, it may be the very last one you unlock, but you'll never again be wondering if your 80th run of vMA will finally be the one that drops an inferno staff in any trait.

Auldwulfe

Personally, I'd suggest a ramping up RNG ... base amount with a small increase after so many attempts, if no success... that way, you will eventually get it.

Auldwulfe

Carcamongus

Many years ago, an article on "The Economist" mentioned that there's evidence the random factor increases engagement with the game. In other words, the science is saying RNGeesus isn't going anywhere. While he's not going anywhere, I do think ESO is relying excessively on him. Leads dropping from treasure map chests, the absurd jubilee grind and visions and verses in the Infinite Archive that have absolutely no effect on the player's build are some examples that come to mind.

ArchangelIsraphel

FluffyBird wrote: »

Nerouyn wrote: »

IMO it boiled to three main things : random generation of content (instanced missions)

Still RNG! See? (just kidding)

I'm afraid I have nothing else to add to the discussion as it is aimed more towards those who dislike RNG and I struggle to even pick a game I like that does not have RNG. Strange Horticulture, I guess. But you probably never heard about it

@FluffyBird Totally off topic but shout out to another Strange Horticulture fan. One of the best roleplay/puzzle games I've ever bought. Such excellent world building in it.

JustLovely

RNG is fine, as long as it's reasonable RNG. The RNG for the limited time style pages during the jubilee event is a good example of totally unacceptable RNG.

FluffyBird

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Nerouyn wrote: »

IMO it boiled to three main things : random generation of content (instanced missions)

Still RNG! See? (just kidding)

I'm afraid I have nothing else to add to the discussion as it is aimed more towards those who dislike RNG and I struggle to even pick a game I like that does not have RNG. Strange Horticulture, I guess. But you probably never heard about it

@FluffyBird Totally off topic but shout out to another Strange Horticulture fan. One of the best roleplay/puzzle games I've ever bought. Such excellent world building in it.

Indeed!

kargen27

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

I do love me some spicy RNG, but I love it will a cool soothing glass of pity system.

And I'd rather have some RNG than unyielding "do 150 dailies or no reward" farm. I want 150 dailies to be the worst case, not a requirement, and for me RNG would make something I don't enjoy more bearable.

No that's not what I meant, I mean you get it after doing something, so do something get version 1 of the reward, do something harder get version 2 of the reward, the harder the content the better version you get. No RNG, no doing something 150 times.

MMOs require three things for long term survival. New content, players repeating content and players active in a variety of content. All three are needed. RNG directly affects one of the three.

Anifaas

I too wish the developers could create unlimited content on a limited budget so that I could do everything just once and collect everything along the way. To be an infallible superhero with perfect success sounds great so long as it continues along an unlimited path upwards with unlimited rewards and the pretence of difficulty so I don’t feel like I’m being placated.

gariondavey

Said it a hundred times and I'll say it again
Ramping drop rates.
If it doesn't drop 1st time, add 10-20 percent.
Repeat until garunteed drop.

Stamicka

Mathius_Mordred wrote: »

In so many games, including ESO, many activities and rewards are governed by an RNG (Random Number Generator). For example in ESO killing a delve boss for a lead, you may be lucky and get it on the first try or you may have to sit around waiting for it to respawn once every 4 minutes and kill it 20 times to get the lead (that's over an hour sitting and waiting), I've heard of some cases where it took 300 attempts. People have told me it's so you spend more time in the game than you would anyway, but I don't need an RNG to keep me in the game, I love playing the game and would be here anyway doing something I enjoy, what I don't love is sitting around for hours waiting for some delve monster to respawn so I can kill it in 15 seconds hoping this will be the time the lead drops.

There has to be a better way, and for me, that would be a guaranteed drop, end RNG entirely. I don't see any point in it, this is not something we are paying real money for like Crown Crates or lock boxes, I understand why those things have gamble mechanics in them. Adding RNG to something like a lead or a weapon drop does not increase enjoyment, it detracts from enjoyment.

If necessary add the very best leads or weapons behind more difficult content, but a reduced stat version behind easy content. For example, Maelstrom staff on normal gives lower stat bonuses than if earned on veteran difficulty. A lead from a delve boss gives a lower stat version of a mythic than the same lead from an associated veteran dungeon boss, that sort of thing, I don't care how it's done but I really wish that useful items for gameplay were not locked behind an RNG.

What do you guys think?

I think RNG has a place in some parts of ESO, but in regards to leads for mythics I agree. I remember when the Harpooner's kilt first came out and people were just standing in front of water hyacinths hoping for the lead to drop. What's the point of that anyway? It was a boring waste of time. There's many mythics that are good and the only reason I don't have them is because I don't feel like grinding.