Scribbing: Wield Soul and Soul Burst adjustment

StaticWave

The Scribbing system is pretty cool and would solve a lot of the pain points of several classes. However, these specific 2 abilities need to be looked at if we want a more balanced PvP. Take a look at these abilities:




Then look at this CMX data:




Cruel Burst and Cruel Soul are the individual effects of each skill. They are also stackable, which is the main concern I'm trying to raise. Since both deal 8% of a target's max HP as Oblivion damage, you will deal a total of 16% of max HP as TRUE damage to your targets (not affected by resistances, block, or Battle Spirit). Take a 30k HP player for example. He will take a total of 4.4k damage that goes through both block and resistances. It's TOO strong.

Please consider making these effects not stackable with each other.

ElderSmitter

It does say Enemy so i assume a Player in PVP is your Enemy. ZOS may change that to say Monster Imo... "Consume a Soul Gem to deal 8% of the Monsters Max Health as Oblivion Damage etc..." I could see that being a change which is why I am not getting too excited for a few weeks and trying any of the PTS Scribing. I want to let the Dust settle. It looks really cool and as soon as I find a combo I love I do not want to be heartbroken lol...

Tannus15

it's literally for PvP, no one is going to use that in PvE. you'll just burn through your gems in a single trial.

in fact pretty much anything which uses the oblivion damage type is designed for vs players.

Turtle_Bot

Yeah, some of the options on those 2 skills seem a bit out of place, but I can see why they wanted them to be strong (the soul magic line is all but completely useless outside of those scribing skills).

I think if they split the execute effect from the oblivion damage effect and buffed them slightly to maybe 10% oblivion damage and 120% execute scaling that would be a good way to balance them since they would now be separate effects and cannot be combined.

The other effect combination for those skills that I am seeing potential issues with is healing + resource return + MAJOR vitality. It's an instant cast burst heal (or shield) that gives burst sustain (1k mag + stam) and what is supposed to be a very, very rare buff (major vitality) all in 1 skill and the burst heal is not small either:
- AoE (burst) is anywhere from 10-13k tooltip in cyro
- ST (Wield) is anywhere from 13k+ tooltip in cyro
Not sure how to balance this combination of effects without completely redesigning or gutting the skills... (maybe make sustain over 5 or 10 seconds instead of instant for effectively 200/100 recovery respectively).

There's another skill that majority seem to be skipping over though that is just as broken as these 2 skills, but it has more utility than these 2 skills.

ToRelax

Still think they should simply share the same cooldown per target, to allow for some counterplay when targeted by multiple people. Not even just a problem in outnumbered situations, with the cooldown on the user a 4 player team in battlegrounds will be able to instant delete anyone near 50% HP.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I think if they split the execute effect from the oblivion damage effect and buffed them slightly to maybe 10% oblivion damage and 120% execute scaling that would be a good way to balance them since they would now be separate effects and cannot be combined.

It's definitely strong enough already. Remember, this is a secondary effect, and it vastly outshines the Sorcerer's class script, which also adds a decent amount of extra damage.

Not sure how to balance this combination of effects without completely redesigning or gutting the skills... (maybe make sustain over 5 or 10 seconds instead of instant for effectively 200/100 recovery respectively).

I'm honestly wondering whether someone just added one zero too many, since it's so way out of line with the recovery scripts on other grimoires.

Jsmalls

Yeah added this screenshot on a post pretty early about how this ability is going to be a problem. Ranged spammable with execute functionality. From a 5 minute fight I proc'd the secondary effect 50 times (87 spammable uses). And this secondary effect (cruel soul) was in my top 3 damage skills almost every fight.




This ability is also going to be a problem. Has higher burst functionality than Dawnbreaker (since it procs 4 status effects). Can be used from the safety of range and can be cast from stealth. And can be used over and over and over...

Seraphayel

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

ToRelax

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

NyassaV

You think the Oblivion dmg thing is bad? How about the 10 second defile on a spamable ability! At least Lethal arrow has a cast time.

To add insult to injury I think you can have the oblivion dmg effect as well as the defile put on at the same time.

ToRelax

There are several powerful buff or debuff options there. Major Defile is relatively rare, so it stands out, but it really isn't on the same power level as the more powerful signature scripts, like oblivion damage, resource restoration or templar class script.

Seraphayel

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I guess players then should start to react sooner? One skill has a cast time that can easily be interrupted. I don’t see an issue why PvP players already want to kill something new just because they deem it overpowered on paper. Again, if those skills are so strong everybody will use them resulting in them being not much of an issue at all until they get fixed.

We have crazy burst builds in this game, we have crazy proc sets, nothing in this game is properly balanced and always needs to be countered by players‘ build ideas. Is this combo powerful? Absolutely. But it‘s not like you can easily pull it off all the time especially not in a 1v1.

Jsmalls

Seraphayel wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I guess players then should start to react sooner? One skill has a cast time that can easily be interrupted. I don’t see an issue why PvP players already want to kill something new just because they deem it overpowered on paper. Again, if those skills are so strong everybody will use them resulting in them being not much of an issue at all until they get fixed.

We have crazy burst builds in this game, we have crazy proc sets, nothing in this game is properly balanced and always needs to be countered by players‘ build ideas. Is this combo powerful? Absolutely. But it‘s not like you can easily pull it off all the time especially not in a 1v1.

It's because we have been provided standard formulas for how abilities should follow a certain pattern.

Then we see outliers and speak up.

PvE you personally don't have to experience a unbalanced beta. You can honestly okay however you want (within reason for endgame competitive trials).

For PvP we'd be stuck with a ridiculous meta for a minimum of 3 months.

ToRelax

Seraphayel wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I guess players then should start to react sooner? One skill has a cast time that can easily be interrupted. I don’t see an issue why PvP players already want to kill something new just because they deem it overpowered on paper. Again, if those skills are so strong everybody will use them resulting in them being not much of an issue at all until they get fixed.

We have crazy burst builds in this game, we have crazy proc sets, nothing in this game is properly balanced and always needs to be countered by players‘ build ideas. Is this combo powerful? Absolutely. But it‘s not like you can easily pull it off all the time especially not in a 1v1.

You are mixing these up with Elemental Explosion. Wield Sould and Soul Burst are both instant cast.

Seraphayel

Jsmalls wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I guess players then should start to react sooner? One skill has a cast time that can easily be interrupted. I don’t see an issue why PvP players already want to kill something new just because they deem it overpowered on paper. Again, if those skills are so strong everybody will use them resulting in them being not much of an issue at all until they get fixed.

We have crazy burst builds in this game, we have crazy proc sets, nothing in this game is properly balanced and always needs to be countered by players‘ build ideas. Is this combo powerful? Absolutely. But it‘s not like you can easily pull it off all the time especially not in a 1v1.

It's because we have been provided standard formulas for how abilities should follow a certain pattern.

Then we see outliers and speak up.

PvE you personally don't have to experience a unbalanced beta. You can honestly okay however you want (within reason for endgame competitive trials).

For PvP we'd be stuck with a ridiculous meta for a minimum of 3 months.

I know that, we’re often enough stuck longer with stuff like this (looking at the tank meta or crosshealing issues that persist for years now), but this particular skill is not a problem, it’s a good counter for exactly that because Oblivion damage. I wish they would introduce more dedicated tank killer abilities in this game. These skills are exactly what’s needed in a meta where everything dies within 2 seconds or doesn’t die at all.

Seraphayel

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I guess players then should start to react sooner? One skill has a cast time that can easily be interrupted. I don’t see an issue why PvP players already want to kill something new just because they deem it overpowered on paper. Again, if those skills are so strong everybody will use them resulting in them being not much of an issue at all until they get fixed.

We have crazy burst builds in this game, we have crazy proc sets, nothing in this game is properly balanced and always needs to be countered by players‘ build ideas. Is this combo powerful? Absolutely. But it‘s not like you can easily pull it off all the time especially not in a 1v1.

You are mixing these up with Elemental Explosion. Wield Sould and Soul Burst are both instant cast.

You‘re right, I thought we were still talking about Elemental Explosion because I saw the screenshot above and my mind was like that‘s it. Then I honestly see even less of an issue here. One is a melee skill, the other isn’t. The ranged execute should stay untouched and I’m not sure if there needs to be an adjustment to the AoE either as it‘s a great tool against ball groups / groups in general. Both skills have completely different use cases and them being used in combination is a rare scenario as there would be more effective combos than these to finish an enemy off.

ToRelax

Seraphayel wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I guess players then should start to react sooner? One skill has a cast time that can easily be interrupted. I don’t see an issue why PvP players already want to kill something new just because they deem it overpowered on paper. Again, if those skills are so strong everybody will use them resulting in them being not much of an issue at all until they get fixed.

We have crazy burst builds in this game, we have crazy proc sets, nothing in this game is properly balanced and always needs to be countered by players‘ build ideas. Is this combo powerful? Absolutely. But it‘s not like you can easily pull it off all the time especially not in a 1v1.

You are mixing these up with Elemental Explosion. Wield Sould and Soul Burst are both instant cast.

You‘re right, I thought we were still talking about Elemental Explosion because I saw the screenshot above and my mind was like that‘s it. Then I honestly see even less of an issue here. One is a melee skill, the other isn’t. The ranged execute should stay untouched and I’m not sure if there needs to be an adjustment to the AoE either as it‘s a great tool against ball groups / groups in general. Both skills have completely different use cases and them being used in combination is a rare scenario as there would be more effective combos than these to finish an enemy off.

Stacking them is what this thread is mainly about. And no, there would almost never be a better combo if you already decided to use one of them (a strong decision by itself), as up to a target health of 82500 they will deal the exact same amount of oblivion damage. For Soul Burst, that is really it's main draw as well, it's no better against zergballs than any other skill. Not different use cases at all.

Seraphayel

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I guess players then should start to react sooner? One skill has a cast time that can easily be interrupted. I don’t see an issue why PvP players already want to kill something new just because they deem it overpowered on paper. Again, if those skills are so strong everybody will use them resulting in them being not much of an issue at all until they get fixed.

We have crazy burst builds in this game, we have crazy proc sets, nothing in this game is properly balanced and always needs to be countered by players‘ build ideas. Is this combo powerful? Absolutely. But it‘s not like you can easily pull it off all the time especially not in a 1v1.

You are mixing these up with Elemental Explosion. Wield Sould and Soul Burst are both instant cast.

You‘re right, I thought we were still talking about Elemental Explosion because I saw the screenshot above and my mind was like that‘s it. Then I honestly see even less of an issue here. One is a melee skill, the other isn’t. The ranged execute should stay untouched and I’m not sure if there needs to be an adjustment to the AoE either as it‘s a great tool against ball groups / groups in general. Both skills have completely different use cases and them being used in combination is a rare scenario as there would be more effective combos than these to finish an enemy off.

Stacking them is what this thread is mainly about. And no, there would almost never be a better combo if you already decided to use one of them (a strong decision by itself), as up to a target health of 82500 they will deal the exact same amount of oblivion damage. For Soul Burst, that is really it's main draw as well, it's no better against zergballs than any other skill. Not different use cases at all.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic then, as I don‘t share your opinion and you don’t share mine (which is totally fine, please don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to discredit your feedback or thoughts).

Sheuib

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I don't see how combining it with the AoE doubles the damage considering it's still another individual button push. The person could just as easily push the same button as suggested as a spammable and get the same oblivion damage. I could be missing something. I didn't dig to deep into these abilities.

Seraphayel

Sheuib wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I don't see how combining it with the AoE doubles the damage considering it's still another individual button push. The person could just as easily push the same button as suggested as a spammable and get the same oblivion damage. I could be missing something. I didn't dig to deep into these abilities.

You can’t use the additional Oblivion damage twice on the same skill as it has an internal cooldown of 3 seconds. But as you’ve said, you could combine one of those skills with any other skill and get to similar results.

ToRelax

Sheuib wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

This should exactly stay as it is. It’s a very specific dynamic tailored for PvP and basically the only place where this version of the skill has a reason to exist. Everybody can use these skills, if they’re so strong 100% of builds will use them. If they won’t it’s obviously not too strong.

Please stop trying to remove ranged executes, they’ve been needed in this game for a very long time because half of the classes lack a proper execute and up until Scribing there didn’t even exist a class-agnostic Magicka / ranged execute at all whereas Dual Wield has one, Twohand has one and even Bow has one to a certain extent yet Destruction Staff did not.

1. It's not simply an execute, but a particularly powerful spammable ability before that and
2. it can be combined with the AoE to deal twice the amount of oblivion damage, placing it firmly beyond what most builds can deal with.

Oblivion damage is generally not good for the game, but for a while now it had been largely reduced to an anti tank tool. These new skills break that design thanks to their accessibility with less opportunity cost than for example Knight-Slayer, and their potential to be combined to be good against anything.

I don't see how combining it with the AoE doubles the damage considering it's still another individual button push. The person could just as easily push the same button as suggested as a spammable and get the same oblivion damage. I could be missing something. I didn't dig to deep into these abilities.

The oblivion damage scripts each have a cooldown of three seconds, but it isn't shared between both abilities. Therefore, using both of them cuts the cooldown in half, doubling the damage which ignores resistances/damage shields/Magma Armour etc. and bringing the resulting pressure into territory not feasible to deal with for most builds (let alone comparable in power to other alternatives).

olsborg

The templar and dk class scripts are much stronger than any other class. Like alot.