Blazing Spears for Tanking?

Theist_VII · April 15

Pardon me if I’m mistaking this, but did they say that the addition to Blazing Spears of an Immobilization was to help tanks?

Why would you add an immobilize to the morph designated for damage dealers instead of either the base ability or the morph already designated for supports?

Also want to add, although I appreciate the recognition that we’re not there yet with Templar tanking, I don’t feel that building tank utility onto a damage focused morph works towards that goal.

We have seen how pulling a skill in complete opposite directions leaves it stretched too thin, failing at both of its intended purposes. Most notably with skills like Blazing Shield and Nova, and I’m afraid Blazing Spears will land next to them.

MashmalloMan · April 15

Yeah it makes no sense. Give the support morph more oomph, not the dps morph. It's so underwhelming already.

Theist_VII · April 15

@ZOS_Kevin if you could bring this problem up to the right people, I’m sure a lot of Templar tanks would appreciate that.

TechMaybeHic · April 15

Not too sure on this as i dont
Pve, but isnt the tank the one that might need the synergy you can't use from your own ability?

MashmalloMan · April 15

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Not too sure on this as i dont
Pve, but isnt the tank the one that might need the synergy you can't use from your own ability?

Neither morph is technically for tanking, however 1 is clearly for support and the other for dps.

It would make more sense to apply the immob to the support skill, not the dps skill. Tanks get minimal advantages from dps focused skills because their offensive stats are very low. if you were to run either morph as a tank, you would choose support... at least before this change.

Theist_VII · April 15

Went and did a double take just to be sure.

TechMaybeHic · April 15

Yeah. It's a miss, but they didn't do much for class changes at all. Hopefully when they do a pass, it will be more thoughtful

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · April 15

The dartboard decided blazing spear. Just be thankful templar had a mention this time.

hamgatan · April 15

Yaw'll are forgetting that Shards had a CC stun in the past until it was nerfed about 7 years back and it was a standard Templar Tank skill.

This is just a reset and giving them back something that should have not really even been taken away..

MashmalloMan · April 15

hamgatan wrote: »

Yaw'll are forgetting that Shards had a CC stun in the past until it was nerfed about 7 years back and it was a standard Templar Tank skill.

This is just a reset and giving them back something that should have not really even been taken away..

Yeah, but it's on the wrong skill. Lol. No one is saying it's not a good buff, but it doesn't make sense to appear on the already superior, damage morph.

If the argument is Blazing had the stun before, then I would say it's been long enough that it shouldn't be a consideration because the landscape of the game has changed so much.

hamgatan · April 16

mmm i dunno man, im all for a little more Balance and giving Templars a bit more relevance in a support class again.

they dropped way off the charts for tanking and even healing they are dropping fast now as Warden/NB and Arc are all better at it for proper endgame content.

pretty much their only relevance now is as a strong DPS class.. so its good to see a little balance to buff them back as tanks again.

ssewallb14_ESO · April 16

There's a nice little timing synergy between Blazing Spear and the new AOE pull from Scribing. Though every class (except nightblade?) will get that delayed pull/root synergy which will become meta, so it's not really a unique interaction for Templar.

But it's control, and it does work, so I'm not too mad really.

The tank kit does still need quite a bit of work though.

Theist_VII · April 16

hamgatan wrote: »

Yaw'll are forgetting that Shards had a CC stun in the past until it was nerfed about 7 years back and it was a standard Templar Tank skill.

This is just a reset and giving them back something that should have not really even been taken away..

The CC was a Disorient, and I was quite fond of it.

This is nothing like that, at the very least, both morphs should have the root, like how both morphs had the Disorient half a decade ago.

sneakymitchell · April 16

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Pardon me if I’m mistaking this, but did they say that the addition to Blazing Spears of an Immobilization was to help tanks?

Why would you add an immobilize to the morph designated for damage dealers instead of either the base ability or the morph already designated for supports?

Also want to add, although I appreciate the recognition that we’re not there yet with Templar tanking, I don’t feel that building tank utility onto a damage focused morph works towards that goal.

We have seen how pulling a skill in complete opposite directions leaves it stretched too thin, failing at both of its intended purposes. Most notably with skills like Blazing Shield and Nova, and I’m afraid Blazing Spears will land next to them.

To make a morph more usable also other morph gets cost reduction. In zos logic if you going stun or immobilize then it have to be big cost in recsources

Theist_VII · April 16

Which is why they should attach the root to the base skill, not just one morph.

It makes zero sense that the utility buff landed on the damage morph instead of the utility morph.

Firstmep · April 16

I think the broader issue is that unlike dlc classes, templars dont have a defined tank skill line.
So no matter what you do, you gonna trample on some dps skills eventually, if you want to add more utility.

Iuppiterr · April 16

Cant wait as a dd to throw my shards and immobilize the enemeys so they cant be pulled together

ADarklore · April 16

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Which is why they should attach the root to the base skill, not just one morph.

It makes zero sense that the utility buff landed on the damage morph instead of the utility morph.

^THIS!

MashmalloMan · April 16

Iuppiterr wrote: »

Cant wait as a dd to throw my shards and immobilize the enemeys so they cant be pulled together

Immobilize is a soft CC, not the same type of hard CC as pulls or stuns. You would in fact be helping the tank by doing half of their job in the act of pulling, and immobilizing them.

Dodge roll and skills like Race Against Time provide cc immunity to immobilizations for 4 seconds, RAT does snares too.

Break free applies cc immunity to stuns, interrupts, and pulls for 7 seconds.

KlauthWarthog · April 16

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Just be thankful templar had a mention this time.

This is not always a good thing. Example given, it would have been fantastic if they had forgotten to change necromancer at all on Update 41.

KlauthWarthog · April 16

Regarding the particular change to templar...
I read "templar tanking" and "blazing", and my brain instantly completed it as "Blazing Shield". You know, morph of the one single aedric spear skill that is moderately related to tanking?
I spent quite some time wondering why they had not added it to the base skill, Sun Shield.
Then I actually noticed it was Blazing Spear. And now I wonder why they decided that templar DPS should immobilize enemies, given that tanks will not find the bar space to slot a DPS skill that also happens to be mostly unreliable at hitting moving targets due to having a travel time.

Theist_VII · April 16

Firstmep wrote: »

I think the broader issue is that unlike dlc classes, templars dont have a defined tank skill line.
So no matter what you do, you gonna trample on some dps skills eventually, if you want to add more utility.

If only it worked that way because I’m sure I’m not the only one who would prefer a few horrible skills get trampled on and reworked.

That approach is much better than simply tacking an immobilize on a random skill that wasn’t worth slotting before for tanking, and calling it an improvement.

This change does not make Blazing Spears appealing for tanking, because what skill are you going to take off to put it on? Something that does more for you, and your group?

Theist_VII · April 16

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

Regarding the particular change to templar...
I read "templar tanking" and "blazing", and my brain instantly completed it as "Blazing Shield". You know, morph of the one single aedric spear skill that is moderately related to tanking?
I spent quite some time wondering why they had not added it to the base skill, Sun Shield.
Then I actually noticed it was Blazing Spear. And now I wonder why they decided that templar DPS should immobilize enemies, given that tanks will not find the bar space to slot a DPS skill that also happens to be mostly unreliable at hitting moving targets due to having a travel time.

Completely agree, I read that Templar tanking was getting some attention and thought that we were finally getting some group buffs, or reworks to our already horrible tanking tool-kit, not just a tacky root on a damage dealer skill.

Instead of a meaningful major buff/debuff attached to Nova, an added health based burst-heal to Sun Shield, an important minor buff to Radiant Aura, or even just giving us back the ability to return Stamina to our group with Repentance, this is what we got, and it landed on the wrong morph.

Soarora · April 16

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Which is why they should attach the root to the base skill, not just one morph.

It makes zero sense that the utility buff landed on the damage morph instead of the utility morph.

It does make sense to me, because the note mentioned it working well with jabs and the scribing stream mentioned aoe pulling before using arc DPS beam. I think ZOS is thinking from a solo DPS perspective and not a tank one, and so they put it on the DPS morph.

It should be on both though, I agree that part doesn’t make sense.

Theist_VII · April 16

Soarora wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Which is why they should attach the root to the base skill, not just one morph.

It makes zero sense that the utility buff landed on the damage morph instead of the utility morph.

It does make sense to me, because the note mentioned it working well with jabs and the scribing stream mentioned aoe pulling before using arc DPS beam. I think ZOS is thinking from a solo DPS perspective and not a tank one, and so they put it on the DPS morph.

It should be on both though, I agree that part doesn’t make sense.

Now, if their goal was to buff solo DPS primarily, why would they open with an entire paragraph about Templar tanks “creeping into the scene” and how they feel this change would benefit them as they lack an immobilize?

If we look at it from the lense you viewed it, it’s more offensive, because they gave recognition that we’re not doing well, and instead of helping that by reworking an under-used morph, they buffed Templar damage dealers.

Soarora · April 16

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Which is why they should attach the root to the base skill, not just one morph.

It makes zero sense that the utility buff landed on the damage morph instead of the utility morph.

It does make sense to me, because the note mentioned it working well with jabs and the scribing stream mentioned aoe pulling before using arc DPS beam. I think ZOS is thinking from a solo DPS perspective and not a tank one, and so they put it on the DPS morph.

It should be on both though, I agree that part doesn’t make sense.

Now, if their goal was to buff solo DPS primarily, why would they open with an entire paragraph about Templar tanks “creeping into the scene” and how they feel this change would benefit them as they lack an immobilize?

If we look at it from the lense you viewed it, it’s more offensive, because they gave recognition that we’re not doing well, and instead of helping that by reworking an under-used morph, they buffed Templar damage dealers.

I’d guess it’s just the expectation that we should use the dps morph to add a minuscule amount of damage instead of the healer morph which “should” be covered by a healer using orb. But I say should in quotes because… pug healers.

Theist_VII · April 16

Soarora wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Telos_Tim wrote: »

Which is why they should attach the root to the base skill, not just one morph.

It makes zero sense that the utility buff landed on the damage morph instead of the utility morph.

It does make sense to me, because the note mentioned it working well with jabs and the scribing stream mentioned aoe pulling before using arc DPS beam. I think ZOS is thinking from a solo DPS perspective and not a tank one, and so they put it on the DPS morph.

It should be on both though, I agree that part doesn’t make sense.

Now, if their goal was to buff solo DPS primarily, why would they open with an entire paragraph about Templar tanks “creeping into the scene” and how they feel this change would benefit them as they lack an immobilize?

If we look at it from the lense you viewed it, it’s more offensive, because they gave recognition that we’re not doing well, and instead of helping that by reworking an under-used morph, they buffed Templar damage dealers.

I’d guess it’s just the expectation that we should use the dps morph to add a minuscule amount of damage instead of the healer morph which “should” be covered by a healer using orb. But I say should in quotes because… pug healers.

If the support morph got the root, then your main tank could support your off-tank or vice-versa much better, because you’d help with add control and resources in one.

An example of this would be Sunspire’s Yolnahkriin fight. In this scenario, the main tank could periodically turn around and throw the spear to the off-tank holding all of the atronachs, rooting all of the flame ones in place after they’ve been pulled in, and providing the resources they need.

There are other fights where it would be like this, and I would love to start seeing this interaction, but it just won’t happen with Blazing Spear, the primary effect would need to be the resource return, not the root, for the skill to be worth slotting in trials for a tank.

Theist_VII · April 16

@ZOS_GinaBruno, I know you’ve been very busy with getting the PTS back up, but could you relay these concerns to the balance team when you get a chance?

Moving the immobilize to the base skill would make Luminous Shards, the other morph, worth slotting as a tank for high intensity trials.

Right now, neither morphs work for a tank.

Necrotech_Master · April 16

i also think its kind of funny that they thought that doing this would have been support for tanking

i actually see templars making more use of this in pvp as an on demand immob that they can place as needed, a little easier and more range than other group immobs like arrow spray

sneakymitchell · April 16

It’s fine. It shouldn’t be a big problem. I won’t mind spending more magicka to do more damage and immobilize.

StarOfElyon · April 16

hamgatan wrote: »

Yaw'll are forgetting that Shards had a CC stun in the past until it was nerfed about 7 years back and it was a standard Templar Tank skill.

This is just a reset and giving them back something that should have not really even been taken away..

I know about that but that ship has sailed. It's a damage dealer's skill now. I use the other morph on my healer to throw a synergy to the tank so I don't want to see that one changed either. I suppose the damage could be buffed to make it useful as a DD skill too. But not if the resources from the synergy get nerfed. Speaking of synergies, the synergy on blazing spear should be changed now to reflect its use as a tank skill.