[PvP] Balance

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Galeriano2

Here's some of people in the discords I'm in who think Ward is OP. There are many more in game.













Cancelled and Graham are magsorc mains, and React was also a sorc main. Marrochir is a bowsorc main. Isn't that like, 9 likes if they're all on the forums, lol? Like I said, just because I'm the most vocal doesn't mean there aren't others like me who want Ward to be reworked.

Did You even read my comments from other threads that I linked earlier? What are You trying to prove here?

This is what you replied to me:

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Sorry but if You think devs will take opinion of 1 person who created hundereds of comments about certain subject as reliable source of information than You're mistaken. For devs to actually make changes based on player's feedback just within 1-2 major patch cycles, something would have to be bombarded with begative feedback like for example oakensoul was. Hardened ward is not being bombared with such negative feedback and majority of people just doesn't seem to be bothered by it as much as You do.

I posted 10+ screenshots showing the people who also believe Ward is too strong, with 4 of them being good Sorc mains.

The point is the forum isn’t everything, and neither are the people in the screenshots. I could paste the discord links here and you would have the majority of people disagreeing with you if you ever decided to argue about Ward. I’m just the most vocal on the forums. There are many more people who agree with me outside of this platform.

That’s why I never used the amount of ppl agreeing with me as a basis for my arguments. Not directing at you, but just in general. I post my own data here and ppl are free to pick at it. What’s absurd is there are ppl who will not post their own data, but claim that I’m the only one having an issue with it, when I’ve literally just demonstrated that there are wayyy more ppl who also think it’s a problem lol.

Sure, ZOS sometimes take feedback from the forums to make changes, but they definitely do not always look at feedback here. If that was the case, Necro would’ve been buffed the way we wanted, and NB nerfed the way we wanted.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Galeriano2

Here's some of people in the discords I'm in who think Ward is OP. There are many more in game.













Cancelled and Graham are magsorc mains, and React was also a sorc main. Marrochir is a bowsorc main. Isn't that like, 9 likes if they're all on the forums, lol? Like I said, just because I'm the most vocal doesn't mean there aren't others like me who want Ward to be reworked.

Did You even read my comments from other threads that I linked earlier? What are You trying to prove here?

This is what you replied to me:

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Sorry but if You think devs will take opinion of 1 person who created hundereds of comments about certain subject as reliable source of information than You're mistaken. For devs to actually make changes based on player's feedback just within 1-2 major patch cycles, something would have to be bombarded with begative feedback like for example oakensoul was. Hardened ward is not being bombared with such negative feedback and majority of people just doesn't seem to be bothered by it as much as You do.

I posted 10+ screenshots showing the people who also believe Ward is too strong, with 4 of them being good Sorc mains.

The point is the forum isn’t everything, and neither are the people in the screenshots. I could paste the discord links here and you would have the majority of people disagreeing with you if you ever decided to argue about Ward. I’m just the most vocal on the forums. There are many more people who agree with me outside of this platform.

That’s why I never used the amount of ppl agreeing with me as a basis for my arguments. Not directing at you, but just in general. I post my own data here and ppl are free to pick at it. What’s absurd is there are ppl who will not post their own data, but claim that I’m the only one having an issue with it, when I’ve literally just demonstrated that there are wayyy more ppl who also think it’s a problem lol.

Sure, ZOS sometimes take feedback from the forums to make changes, but they definitely do not always look at feedback here. If that was the case, Necro would’ve been buffed the way we wanted, and NB nerfed the way we wanted.

So does 10 screenshots from discord make hardened ward "bombared with negative feedback"?

The point is hardened ward is nowhere near reciving the levels of negative feedback that would push devs to make the change to it. Forum isn't everything but still forums reflects more or less major desires of the community and changes to hardened ward are not high on that desires list.

I think You still don't understand my opinion about ward.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You can spend all the time in the world on duelling and data You collect will still be incompletye when it comes to other PvP enviroements.

You've been provided plenty of data from other PvP environments ITT.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

You can spend all the time in the world on duelling and data You collect will still be incompletye when it comes to other PvP enviroements.

You've been provided plenty of data from other PvP environments ITT.

Examples?

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Examples?

Sorry they were in the other Ward thread, the CMX from random open world encounters, both duel and zerg.

Caecus0

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

IDK where people are getting the idea that a majority of the playerbase is either Sorc or NB. I play every class (except Arcanist just by virtue that I haven't had a lot of time to level one) and the majority of classes I see are Sorcs, Arcanists and DKs. I see NBs about as often as Templars and Wardens, the latter of which is very strange because Wardens are VERY strong.

I keep seeing all the hate about NBs and sure, they can pack a punch, but they are usually very squishy. When I'm on my NB, it's difficult to do anything in an outnumbered fight if they are even remotely good. Blocking shuts down my NB hard and it is very easy to get caught out of place and just simply die. The NBs saving grace is the burst wombo combo, and if that doesn't kill their target, they're going to have a bad time. The stealth can be annoying to deal with at times, but a lot of things can break it. Everyone is running Weakness to Elements now and that breaks stealth because reasons. Basically, even uncoordinated groups will mess up a NB. My advise against people that hate NB so much are to bring Entropy from the Mage's guild (because that breaks stealth too), Weakness to Elements, or any other form of stealth detection. Combine that with a damage shield and blocking and you are all set to make any NB guaranteed to ignore you or pull their hair out.

These issues are not what I face on either my DK or Sorcerer. If my Sorcerer's burst fails, they have so much pressure damage that it doesn't even matter. Streak is also one of the best skills in the game by far, and being on the receiving end of it is the most frustrating thing to deal with when you are trying to pump damage into them. My DK can be a mixed bag at times, but I can definitely face down more than 1 opponent at a time with virtually nowhere near as many issues as my NB. I gave them Rushing Agony and it's insane how a single Stampede > Take Flight combo can completely wreck a group.

It's hard to gauge my Warden since I built them as a healer. They just plain don't die unless I have an entire group of 4 on me.

There is plenty of tools that measure class population in Cyrodill. Nb is dominating in popularity for few years straight. Few days after U41 release history of classes population was looking something like that (shoutouts to @Zabagad for making this chart)

Despite all its "weaknesses" nightblade is still the easiest to play for average players because it requires to least amount of skill to actually deal some noticable damage to someone and when his defenses work they are pretty much some of the strongest in the game. On other classes majority of nb players wouldn't be able to deal fraction of pressure they can do on nightblade.

What?

I have heard many things about NB being a popular thing, but not a single person has ever said NBs are the easiest for new players. That is just factually incorrect. Everyone I have ever talked to in this game has said that NBs are very good, but require ALOT of skill. What you're saying is just wrong.

I can hop on literally any of the classes I have leveled and get better results than I could on a NB. I can hop on my Warden, go into the middle of a fight and literally not be in danger of dying. I can hope on my Sorc and kill players more consistently than my NB and die less often because Streak and Hardened Ward are just insane skills.

So either I am a terrible player who excels with these classes because they are just easier to play (which is what I suspect) or for some reason, those harder classes somehow click for me better than the NB does.

Nightblade is a classic example of "easy to play hard to master" type of class and when many people say nightblade requires a lot of skill that's what they mean. And that "hard to master" part also started to fade away with latest buffs that nb got which removed majority of drawbacks that was making this class hard to master in the past. There is a reason nearly 30% of people plays nb. it's not like ESO is game for hardcore masochists that will pick the hardest setup possible. In anything it's completly opposite, majority of players pick a setup that is the strongest for mediocre player and currently that's a nightblade.

You can "not be in danger of dying" on basically every class atm when You build for it. Some classes reach that status more naturally through their archetypes.

There are other options explaining Your experience. For example You may try to play nb the way it's not meant to be played for You or You are just using bad setup on it. Class currently doesn't require much to be effective and is considered by many as top PvP class which is reflected in popularity numbers that are going up with each patch for few patches straight which is usually a perfect indicator of meta.

That's still just wrong. The reason NB is easy to learn but hard to master is because the NB, like many stealth-based assassin classes, tend to be noob killers. They get a lot of free damage based around burst and newer players don't know what to do against it. So it certainly FEELS like an easier class to play because beginner to intermediate NBs will have fewer issues fighting beginner to intermediate players of other classes.

Once it starts to get past intermediate level play, this dynamic changes. The NB has to start being less reliant on just constantly stealthing and bursting because players start getting tankier, and they also start carrying abilities that rip the NB out of stealth whether they are intended to or not (Degeneration and Weakness to Elements to name a couple). That burst wombo combo of Incap into Spectral Bow starts meaning less because people learn to block more. It gets to the point where a NB is only getting a kill against players who make several mistakes in a row, and only after stacking every buff and debuff they can to land the kill. This gives NB players two options: they can either join the rest of the meta to become tanky bruisers like the rest of them and ironically be worse at it, or go full into a gimmicky gank build and ONLY pop out when another player gets low. The former frustrates people because they are tanky like everyone else, but they do JUST enough burst damage that they can 2 shot you if you aren't careful and aren't playing a tanky build.

Meanwhile, I can equip my Arcanist with Maarselok, Master's Dual Wield, Vateshran Destro Staff and Dragon's Appetite and be damn close to immortal, but I can out-pressure any Nightblade to the point where they either need to hug their team or run. Wardens can achieve similar results albeit with a slightly different build.

Meanwhile on my Sorcerer, especially with the buffs, I can ironically build like a squishball and still be tankier than my NB due to how useful Streak is and how strong the new Hardened Ward is. Except with this squishball, I'm a threat to other classes because I just need to put a few abilities/debuffs on a target and the damage all lines up to happen at once.

You can keep reciting popularity. That doesn't mean the class is the best. It could just as easily mean the class is most fun, and it's fun because people like the idea of being able to just burst someone from stealth. Above intermediate play it doesn't work as often, but it's certainly satisfying when it happens. That may be enough for people to stick to the class.

EDIT: Grammar

StaticWave

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Galeriano2

Here's some of people in the discords I'm in who think Ward is OP. There are many more in game.













Cancelled and Graham are magsorc mains, and React was also a sorc main. Marrochir is a bowsorc main. Isn't that like, 9 likes if they're all on the forums, lol? Like I said, just because I'm the most vocal doesn't mean there aren't others like me who want Ward to be reworked.

Did You even read my comments from other threads that I linked earlier? What are You trying to prove here?

This is what you replied to me:

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Sorry but if You think devs will take opinion of 1 person who created hundereds of comments about certain subject as reliable source of information than You're mistaken. For devs to actually make changes based on player's feedback just within 1-2 major patch cycles, something would have to be bombarded with begative feedback like for example oakensoul was. Hardened ward is not being bombared with such negative feedback and majority of people just doesn't seem to be bothered by it as much as You do.

I posted 10+ screenshots showing the people who also believe Ward is too strong, with 4 of them being good Sorc mains.

The point is the forum isn’t everything, and neither are the people in the screenshots. I could paste the discord links here and you would have the majority of people disagreeing with you if you ever decided to argue about Ward. I’m just the most vocal on the forums. There are many more people who agree with me outside of this platform.

That’s why I never used the amount of ppl agreeing with me as a basis for my arguments. Not directing at you, but just in general. I post my own data here and ppl are free to pick at it. What’s absurd is there are ppl who will not post their own data, but claim that I’m the only one having an issue with it, when I’ve literally just demonstrated that there are wayyy more ppl who also think it’s a problem lol.

Sure, ZOS sometimes take feedback from the forums to make changes, but they definitely do not always look at feedback here. If that was the case, Necro would’ve been buffed the way we wanted, and NB nerfed the way we wanted.

So does 10 screenshots from discord make hardened ward "bombared with negative feedback"?

The point is hardened ward is nowhere near reciving the levels of negative feedback that would push devs to make the change to it. Forum isn't everything but still forums reflects more or less major desires of the community and changes to hardened ward are not high on that desires list.

I think You still don't understand my opinion about ward.

10 screenshots just from Discord. I could go into Cyro and ask if Ward is overperforming and I’d get even more answers.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

@Galeriano2

Here's some of people in the discords I'm in who think Ward is OP. There are many more in game.













Cancelled and Graham are magsorc mains, and React was also a sorc main. Marrochir is a bowsorc main. Isn't that like, 9 likes if they're all on the forums, lol? Like I said, just because I'm the most vocal doesn't mean there aren't others like me who want Ward to be reworked.

Did You even read my comments from other threads that I linked earlier? What are You trying to prove here?

This is what you replied to me:

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Sorry but if You think devs will take opinion of 1 person who created hundereds of comments about certain subject as reliable source of information than You're mistaken. For devs to actually make changes based on player's feedback just within 1-2 major patch cycles, something would have to be bombarded with begative feedback like for example oakensoul was. Hardened ward is not being bombared with such negative feedback and majority of people just doesn't seem to be bothered by it as much as You do.

I posted 10+ screenshots showing the people who also believe Ward is too strong, with 4 of them being good Sorc mains.

The point is the forum isn’t everything, and neither are the people in the screenshots. I could paste the discord links here and you would have the majority of people disagreeing with you if you ever decided to argue about Ward. I’m just the most vocal on the forums. There are many more people who agree with me outside of this platform.

That’s why I never used the amount of ppl agreeing with me as a basis for my arguments. Not directing at you, but just in general. I post my own data here and ppl are free to pick at it. What’s absurd is there are ppl who will not post their own data, but claim that I’m the only one having an issue with it, when I’ve literally just demonstrated that there are wayyy more ppl who also think it’s a problem lol.

Sure, ZOS sometimes take feedback from the forums to make changes, but they definitely do not always look at feedback here. If that was the case, Necro would’ve been buffed the way we wanted, and NB nerfed the way we wanted.

So does 10 screenshots from discord make hardened ward "bombared with negative feedback"?

The point is hardened ward is nowhere near reciving the levels of negative feedback that would push devs to make the change to it. Forum isn't everything but still forums reflects more or less major desires of the community and changes to hardened ward are not high on that desires list.

I think You still don't understand my opinion about ward.

10 screenshots just from Discord. I could go into Cyro and ask if Ward is overperforming and I’d get even more answers.

You could also read more carefully posts I've made. it would save You time on trying to prove the point I've already made.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

Examples?

Sorry they were in the other Ward thread, the CMX from random open world encounters, both duel and zerg.

So no examples?

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

So no examples?

From the depths of that horrifying Sorc thread, behold these CMX of similar value Cyrodiil HPS from my brawler Arc main and a meta 58k max mag Sorc I only made to see whether Hardened Ward was broken or not for myself.

46.1% of total Arc HPS from Impervious Ward @ 1593 HPS


86.5% of total Sorc HPS from Hardened Ward @ 2791 HPS


That sure looks like Hardened Ward being nigh twice as strong as Impervious Ward, a skill players had already been crying nerf over not too long ago. My Arc also needed Vigor and multiple hots just to get the same result as my Sorc spam.

Galeriano2

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

So no examples?

From the depths of that horrifying Sorc thread, behold these CMX of similar value Cyrodiil HPS from my brawler Arc main and a meta 58k max mag Sorc I only made to see whether Hardened Ward was broken or not for myself.

46.1% of total Arc HPS from Impervious Ward @ 1593 HPS


86.5% of total Sorc HPS from Hardened Ward @ 2791 HPS


That sure looks like Hardened Ward being nigh twice as strong as Impervious Ward, a skill players had already been crying nerf over not too long ago. My Arc also needed Vigor and multiple hots just to get the same result as my Sorc spam.

So that "other enviroments" than duelling is a cmx from a duel in Cyro? Don't want to burst Your bubble but duel in Cyro is still pretty much a duelling enviroment that is even more flawed and less reliable without much of needed context than duels in duellling areas. What's next? CMX from a duel in IC and BG as a prove of covering all basis?

You mentioned about multiple examples from quote "CMX from random open world encounters, both duel and zerg" and provided one cmx from one Cyro duel. Nice.

xylena_lazarow

Galeriano2 wrote: »

So that "other enviroments" than duelling is a cmx from a duel in Cyro?

Zerg in Cyro, unless you think I'm dueling with other players at my side lol.

StihlReign

Cyrodiil Is a large population arena designed for large scale fights and battles (as most of us know).

The issue with balance is simple - 1. NPCs in the game are not properly tuned.

Since the game's npcs aren't properly tuned - Cyrodiil has battle spirit.

2. The game (combat team) has no respect for the traditional roles of tank, healer, dps.

Without respect for the following roles, all roles have been given to all players, meaning 1 player, which often results in overtuned players. Absent a proper banes system to punish dual tuning, balance becomes elusive.

In simplest terms - A tank should not be capable of enough damage to kill anything but the lowest level npc, and this should be an extended endeavor, a healer should be similarly frustrated. As the scale slides towards damage, so should the loss of "tankiness".

There is a forum post alluding to the fact that there are now, inc monster sets, 6million armor combinations. The devs have the spec sheets and therefore the ability to clearly see tank, healer and dps combinations, and their outputs, and make the adjustments accordingly.

The players need a simple system, even if it's just a slider, to see this as well. You are a tank - dmg output 12/100

Mansquito

I personally just can't get my head around the Sorc buffs. The class already had one of the best survivability skills in the game in streak, and had top tier pressure in offence, and top tier burst in offence. So now they decide to make it unkillable as well which is just an utterly demoralising balancing attempt when considering other classes (specifically Necro and Templar).

I get NB is top tier as well, but the difference is they don't have as much pressure or ability to face tank stuff like Sorc now. They've got an OP heal but I still put Sorc in its own bracket because it has literally everything. Nightblade has an amazing class toolkit but it isn't as comprehensive as Sorc.

I play Templar, Warden, Necro and it makes me sick trying to kill Sorcs on any of them. If a Sorc is in a good player's hands it's currently almost unkillable in a 1v1 on those classes, regardless of your level or your build. Necro and Templar have no offensive pressure or burst to be able to get through its shields (although at least you can still bomb a few on Necro), how are you able to compete with Sorcerer? There's no balance at all.

It's always the same with the balancing, either nerf something so it becomes so uncompetitive nobody uses it (that applies to classes, sets and skills) or overtune it so much that it is 3 or 4 times better than other classes, sets or skills. It's getting boring.

heng14rwb17_ESO

Stam sorc is S tier class.......no doubt about it.

xylena_lazarow

Mansquito wrote: »

I get NB is top tier as well, but the difference is they don't have as much pressure or ability to face tank stuff like Sorc now. They've got an OP heal but I still put Sorc in its own bracket because it has literally everything. Nightblade has an amazing class toolkit but it isn't as comprehensive as Sorc.

100% this, Sorc can face tank like a Warden melee brawler, while putting out NB level damage from full 41m range. Every time someone tries to make these comparisons, they ignore that Wardens have much lower damage output and take much more damage just from having to get in close, and they forget that sure NBs heal like crazy but can't actually face tank and also need to take the BIG risk of getting in close to land their big combos.

Too many players ignore the massive advantage of being fully ranged, it's like bringing a gun to a knife fight.

huskandhunger

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Mansquito wrote: »

I get NB is top tier as well, but the difference is they don't have as much pressure or ability to face tank stuff like Sorc now. They've got an OP heal but I still put Sorc in its own bracket because it has literally everything. Nightblade has an amazing class toolkit but it isn't as comprehensive as Sorc.

100% this, Sorc can face tank like a Warden melee brawler, while putting out NB level damage from full 41m range. Every time someone tries to make these comparisons, they ignore that Wardens have much lower damage output and take much more damage just from having to get in close, and they forget that sure NBs heal like crazy but can't actually face tank and also need to take the BIG risk of getting in close to land their big combos.

Too many players ignore the massive advantage of being fully ranged, it's like bringing a gun to a knife fight.

yes sorcs are now the long range impervious cannons who can reposition with streak ability multiple times now it's dreadful

DrNukenstein

mag sorc is such a hard class to play lol

StaticWave

DrNukenstein wrote: »

mag sorc is such a hard class to play lol

It's so hard to survive on magsorc. My 16k Ward and 11k burst heal isn't enough to mitigate damage. They should've given a HoT as well to make it fair.

DrNukenstein

It ain't eezy being cheezy

(Spamming curse, crushing weapon, and crystal frags from 40+ meters away, bolting across the map if anyone looks at me, and crutching on my healy shields when a try hard melee player finally catches me)

xylena_lazarow

StaticWave wrote: »

My 16k Ward and 11k burst heal isn't enough to mitigate damage

Neither is mine. See the other day I died, but muh playstyle is that I never die and am good at everything without trying, so that clearly means Ward is actually underpowered, ZOS must buff Ward to accommodate muh playstyle. /s

TechMaybeHic

That seems like a lot 1v1 but not when getting zerged. Seems reasonably to shield heal through a zerg for a while/s

StaticWave

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

That seems like a lot 1v1 but not when getting zerged. Seems reasonably to shield heal through a zerg for a while/s

Everything dies when zerged. Let's buff every burst heal to heal for 20k a pop. We want fairness!

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

That seems like a lot 1v1 but not when getting zerged. Seems reasonably to shield heal through a zerg for a while/s

It's a lot against zergs too. No other defensive tool has an effective 28k tooltip.

Priyasekarssk

It’s not about who is playing what. People play the class because they liked it for some reason. It’s all about who is in top 100. Fairly nightblades make 50 percent in top100. Vampires 99 percent. Rest of classes has fair representation. Zos doesn’t nerf nightblade and vampires for very long time. If they try balance now many noobs will leave. Many streamers play only night blade.

Zabagad

Priyasekarssk wrote: »

It’s all about who is in top 100. Fairly nightblades make 50 percent in top100. Vampires 99 percent. Rest of classes has fair representation.

Not the newest data (and therefore still not sig for U41), but new enough to show that you are wrong with the boldet parts. (Pretty sure you are wrong with 99% vamps too, but I cannot prove that and at least I agree with the generell "problem" of vamp3)

xylena_lazarow

Zabagad wrote: »

but new enough to show that you are wrong with the boldet parts.

Appreicate the data, same person was previously making similarly baseless claims regarding Sorcs and leaderboards. Interesting that the increase in Sorc and NB seems to be coming mostly from the pool of DKs, which makes sense as they were the previous top meta, but now they're merely "good" and being outclassed in almost everything they do.

NB and Sorc are now just as tanky, but outclass DK in damage and utility. Warden, Temp, and Arc are all pretty similar as melee brawlers, but outclass DK in group support. Being forced to run a bad skill for Major Brutality is catching up to them. Their strength is in melee pressure damage, something ZOS keeps inexplicably nerfing.

TechMaybeHic

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

but new enough to show that you are wrong with the boldet parts.

Appreicate the data, same person was previously making similarly baseless claims regarding Sorcs and leaderboards. Interesting that the increase in Sorc and NB seems to be coming mostly from the pool of DKs, which makes sense as they were the previous top meta, but now they're merely "good" and being outclassed in almost everything they do.

NB and Sorc are now just as tanky, but outclass DK in damage and utility. Warden, Temp, and Arc are all pretty similar as melee brawlers, but outclass DK in group support. Being forced to run a bad skill for Major Brutality is catching up to them. Their strength is in melee pressure damage, something ZOS keeps inexplicably nerfing.

I wonder if melee is almost being discouraged as to not notice position desync as much where abilities don't go off as you are not as close as you think. Then again, ranged seems just as impacted via LOS and position at times

xylena_lazarow

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I wonder if melee is almost being discouraged as to not notice position desync as much where abilities don't go off as you are not as close as you think. Then again, ranged seems just as impacted via LOS and position at times

It's really confusing, just rewards players for sitting on the roof or behind zergs and cheesing kills, while punishing the melee brawling playstyles that so many players love about this game. Who wouldn't want to bring a gun to a knife fight? Nevermind the horrendous projectile desync, constantly being hit through walls, being hit by 3 lagged snipes at once...

StaticWave

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

but new enough to show that you are wrong with the boldet parts.

Appreicate the data, same person was previously making similarly baseless claims regarding Sorcs and leaderboards. Interesting that the increase in Sorc and NB seems to be coming mostly from the pool of DKs, which makes sense as they were the previous top meta, but now they're merely "good" and being outclassed in almost everything they do.

NB and Sorc are now just as tanky, but outclass DK in damage and utility. Warden, Temp, and Arc are all pretty similar as melee brawlers, but outclass DK in group support. Being forced to run a bad skill for Major Brutality is catching up to them. Their strength is in melee pressure damage, something ZOS keeps inexplicably nerfing.

No reason to run a pressure melee DK when you can hop on a Sorc and do it from max range. It also doesn't help that the current meta magsorc builds (Crafty/Wretched or Rally/Wretched) have a low skill ceiling and pretty much everything you want from a build (damage, survivability, sustain).

NB is no different. After the recent buffs it has become a very strong class in GvG. Soul Tether, Powered Extraction, and Refreshing Path are amazing abilities for group play. Should the NB require a single target burst, there's always Merciless Resolve. Only reason you want a DK in group now is for Minor Brutality/Talons/Ash Cloud/Standard. DK just doesn't have the burst to deal with the amount of cross healing in GvG unfortunately.