[PvP] Balance

Bashev

[snip] It is not logical to give the best defense to the 2 burstiest and mobile classes in the game.

75% of the PvP population is NBs and Sorcs and i understand that, why would you want to play another class. These classes have everything, great burst great sustain and escape tool.

The rest they just cannot compare to them.

Arcanist is tanky but no damage and their damage is so predictable and easier to counter.

DKs tanky, ok damage but not mobile and tools to escape as NBs or Sorcs.

Templar tanky and that is, same for wardens.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

mmtaniac

Templar lost his identity as a purging class. Before 5 purges was strong right now our main purge ability require to remove minimum 10-15 effect or remove every status effects per cast + 5 unique debuffs.

This way we lost most of our defense wchich is problem overall because we can't build better for damage. This way our damage are bad because templar lack offensive debuffs.

We are not class that debuff enemies ,we need BURST DAMAGE. It's impossible to burst enemy with undeath too strong and tank meta build with our small damage overall. To make templar damage good you need to build him in specific way to improve that "ONE" skill you want to use and be effective with, other classes not have problems like that, you just build them with extra MORE WEAPON/SPELL DAMAGE!!!!!!

I was trying to play with big weapon damage templar it doesn't work for me because this way i lack something else. On NB or sorc i don't have this problems.

ItsNotLiving

They made Sorc meta because they released the mages guild crates. Soon some holy radiant crates will come and make Templar get some love lol.

TechMaybeHic

Seems more people are starting to speak up.

Bashev

Also the block healing is too strong and classes that has no unblockable stun are at disadvantage.

Off course NBs and Sorcs has unlbockable stun, why not otherwise they might not secure the kill

Warden, Necros and Arcanists needs their stuns to be unblockable, wait where are the stuns for Necro and Warden

Sorry i was wrong, Necro has a stun if you can pinpoint it or predict when you will drop your opponent health and fear them before they start block casting heals.

Urzigurumash

Good players do not now and have not ever died to MagSorcs.

I should know, because I am not a good player.

Amen

NyassaV

Bashev wrote: »

Also the block healing is too strong and classes that has no unblockable stun are at disadvantage.

Off course NBs and Sorcs has unlbockable stun, why not otherwise they might not secure the kill

Warden, Necros and Arcanists needs their stuns to be unblockable, wait where are the stuns for Necro and Warden

Sorry i was wrong, Necro has a stun if you can pinpoint it or predict when you will drop your opponent health and fear them before they start block casting heals.

NB, Sorc, and DKs*

In truth though if you get hit with fear that's kinda your fault. It has a 6m radius while melee abilities have a 8m range in general, further more movement speed is really high right now so landing fear is a bit tricky. Warden has enough tools so no it doesn't need a stun. And the Arcanist stun does so many other things that making it unblockable is silly.

IncultaWolf

Necro main here, I love pain

Bashev

NyassaV wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Also the block healing is too strong and classes that has no unblockable stun are at disadvantage.

Off course NBs and Sorcs has unlbockable stun, why not otherwise they might not secure the kill

Warden, Necros and Arcanists needs their stuns to be unblockable, wait where are the stuns for Necro and Warden

Sorry i was wrong, Necro has a stun if you can pinpoint it or predict when you will drop your opponent health and fear them before they start block casting heals.

NB, Sorc, and DKs*

In truth though if you get hit with fear that's kinda your fault. It has a 6m radius while melee abilities have a 8m range in general, further more movement speed is really high right now so landing fear is a bit tricky. Warden has enough tools so no it doesn't need a stun. And the Arcanist stun does so many other things that making it unblockable is silly.

Please give me these 8m melee skills. It is clearly that you a range player. Currently if you want to kill a competant PvP player you need an unblockble stun when you drop their health in order to finish them. Otherwise they will block heal, streak, or escape. Add undeath to that and then it is even more difficult. NBs does not use fear right now so common because of their unmatched burst. For DKs if you make fossilize blockable you will destroy the class for example. As I said stun is a big part to finish your target with the block healing.

xylena_lazarow

NyassaV wrote: »

In truth though if you get hit with fear that's kinda your fault. It has a 6m radius while melee abilities have a 8m range in general, further more movement speed is really high right now so landing fear is a bit tricky. Warden has enough tools so no it doesn't need a stun. And the Arcanist stun does so many other things that making it unblockable is silly.

Melee range is 7m and the speed creep cuts both ways, landing melee hits on the cloaking major+minor speed class is not trivial. Warden needs a real stun so it can actually end a fight and not just stalemate spamming Polar for 35 minutes. Not sure what you think the Arc stun does other than stun, fix the unresponsive cc break and it's fine.

Bashev

So, only NBs and Sorcs everywhere. The 2 most annoying classes with their escape tools.

moo_2021

Bashev wrote: »

As I said stun is a big part to finish your target with the block healing.

Doesn't oblivion damage go right through block?


Fast attack like bash and jab also break block easily by draining their resource.

Bashev

moo_2021 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

As I said stun is a big part to finish your target with the block healing.

Doesn't oblivion damage go right through block?


Fast attack like bash and jab also break block easily by draining their resource.

Oblivion damage goes through block or anything but the best i can do is 2s infused enchants. You are not killing anyone with that.

I play a bash build and you do not drain stamina, not in CP. Whoever takes advantage of block casting heals they have backbar either ice staff or shield. This is 36% block cost reduction and when you add 25% core combat skills cost reduction from CP good luck to run them out of stamina for the 3-4 seconds that they need to heal to max health.

jerj6925

Sorcerer escape tool? You mean streak 95% of the time used offensively lol.

Bashev

jerj6925 wrote: »

Sorcerer escape tool? You mean streak 95% of the time used offensively lol.

That does not mean that it cannot be used defensively

It is not so annoying when it is used offensively.

Bashev

Still nothing for NBs and Sorcs.

Kaysha

There really is no balance problem. Sorcs are part of the base game. Everyone can play them.

Heals_With_Orbs

PvP balance...

Something that can be done very easily is to remove or nerf the ridiculous Undeath passive. OP mentioned 75% of the population are NBs and Sorcs, but 99% of the population are vamps, because the passive is "too good not to use"

If PvP is to be balanced it shouldnt put you in a postion where you must do something or be less competitive. What is the logic behind a game design like this?

To make it fair and balanced make players play a vampire properly and impose a severe penalty for being active during the day. For example make flame damage ignore all resistances like oblivion damage works.

Creatures of the night shouldnt be able to roam around in the day.

I recommend the ZOS team read Bram Stokers Dracula or watch some vampire movies like The Lost Boys, or John Carpenters Vampyres for some info, as it seems random rules are conjured up that have norhing to do with vampire lore

Please remove this Undeath garbage

Bashev

Heals_With_Orbs wrote: »

PvP balance...

Something that can be done very easily is to remove or nerf the ridiculous Undeath passive. OP mentioned 75% of the population are NBs and Sorcs, but 99% of the population are vamps, because the passive is "too good not to use"

If PvP is to be balanced it shouldnt put you in a postion where you must do something or be less competitive. What is the logic behind a game design like this?

To make it fair and balanced make players play a vampire properly and impose a severe penalty for being active during the day. For example make flame damage ignore all resistances like oblivion damage works.

Creatures of the night shouldnt be able to roam around in the day.

I recommend the ZOS team read Bram Stokers Dracula or watch some vampire movies like The Lost Boys, or John Carpenters Vampyres for some info, as it seems random rules are conjured up that have norhing to do with vampire lore

Please remove this Undeath garbage

Yes undeath should be removed and I have topics about that but imagine removing it without touching sorcs and NBs, their burst will delete the other classes.

PvP balancing is a big eco system. And undeath and block casting heals are here to prevent the big burst that a few classes have. Tone down that burst and remove the passive and the block casting heals. Remove stacking hots and keep only one instance from a hot skill. Make Maarselok to remove the negative effects once cast vs the target.

TechMaybeHic

Bashev wrote: »

Still nothing for NBs and Sorcs.

There is a sorc buff. Seens minor but it really isn't

Bashev

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Still nothing for NBs and Sorcs.

There is a sorc buff. Seens minor but it really isn't

I know, I was expecting slight nerfs but devs think is ok. Or PvP is not important at all.

StaticWave

ZOS is to blame, and the players are also to blame.

The forums is full of players who are barely experienced enough in PvP. A buff like U41 Ward may seem fine and needed for them, but good players know it's broken. But see, that's why we have PTS. Players like me who mained Sorc for a long time and are decent at the class have provided feedback on U41 Ward, and feedback on how to improve Sorc without over buffing it, but our feedback are lost in the noise.

We used to have a Class Rep program to prevent that, but ZOS didn't listen to them either lol. The program was scratched because what's the point of having Class Reps providing ZOS feedback when they were gonna do their own thing anyway.

That's why this problem is two fold. We have inexperienced players with a lack of in-game testing shout over the more experienced players who've done testings. We also have developers who spin suggestions their own way instead of listening to the playerbase.

Berenhir

StaticWave wrote: »

ZOS is to blame, and the players are also to blame.

The forums is full of players who are barely experienced enough in PvP. A buff like U41 Ward may seem fine and needed for them, but good players know it's broken. But see, that's why we have PTS. Players like me who mained Sorc for a long time and are decent at the class have provided feedback on U41 Ward, and feedback on how to improve Sorc without over buffing it, but our feedback are lost in the noise.

We used to have a Class Rep program to prevent that, but ZOS didn't listen to them either lol. The program was scratched because what's the point of having Class Reps providing ZOS feedback when they were gonna do their own thing anyway.

That's why this problem is two fold. We have inexperienced players with a lack of in-game testing shout over the more experienced players who've done testings. We also have developers who spin suggestions their own way instead of listening to the playerbase.

Aaaaaah, the class rep discussions and the discord. And now we have plaguebreak, azureblight and oakensoul.

Problem of the class rep programm was that the players thought the task was to balance classes around player skill and experience. Like in making inexperienced players on all classes somehow viable but skilled players on all classes actually good.

Was a year in until reps realized their feedback was used to make skilled players and inexperienced players alike to cater to chaos and an easy gaming experience without the need to put effort in.

Galeriano2

StaticWave wrote: »

ZOS is to blame, and the players are also to blame.

The forums is full of players who are barely experienced enough in PvP. A buff like U41 Ward may seem fine and needed for them, but good players know it's broken. But see, that's why we have PTS. Players like me who mained Sorc for a long time and are decent at the class have provided feedback on U41 Ward, and feedback on how to improve Sorc without over buffing it, but our feedback are lost in the noise.

We used to have a Class Rep program to prevent that, but ZOS didn't listen to them either lol. The program was scratched because what's the point of having Class Reps providing ZOS feedback when they were gonna do their own thing anyway.

That's why this problem is two fold. We have inexperienced players with a lack of in-game testing shout over the more experienced players who've done testings. We also have developers who spin suggestions their own way instead of listening to the playerbase.

When it comes to the noise I think I wouldn't lie if I tell that the biggest noise about hardened ward was made by You and that possibly half of negative comments towards hardened ward after U41 release was made by You so if anything is being lost in noise it will be everyones else's opinion on hardened ward change due to how much noise You've made. Sorry but if You think devs will take opinion of 1 person who created hundereds of comments about certain subject as reliable source of information than You're mistaken. For devs to actually make changes based on player's feedback just within 1-2 major patch cycles, something would have to be bombarded with begative feedback like for example oakensoul was. Hardened ward is not being bombared with such negative feedback and majority of people just doesn't seem to be bothered by it as much as You do.

Class reps program was never made with the idea of experienced players providing their own feedback to devs and devs making changes based on that feedback. Class reps main role was just collecting a data from playerbase on discords, in game etc and passing it to the devs in more organised fashion. Some of the class reps were actually pretty casual players and there was even a little drama about that with one of said class reps in the middle of it. Class reps were getting acces to patch notes earlier to provide their general feel about the incoming updates but their opinion was never deciding factor. Eventually it led to a situation where one of the reps dissatisfied with incoming changes decided to leak patch notes which caused a bit of drama among community and some serious legal moves irl were made againt him by ZoS.It's safe to assume that after this, ZoS became more cautious with informations they shared with class reps. At the end of the day game balance during time when class rep program existed and when it didn't was really not that different. Devs were showing increasing disconnect from the playerbase with every year with and without class reps existance.

Problem is that ZoS doesn't care about player's ideas and opinions which in its own is understandable considering how many different opinions and ideas people have. Devs have their own vision and they are pushing it really hard no matter what people think about it. They sometimes notice when people are complaining about something loud enugh for long enough but they will usually just try to make changes to that thing that will be fitting their general view they have for the game. It would be nice if not the fact it's becoming more and more obvious devs responsible for balancing gameplay seem to be lately very disconnected from the gameplay itself.

Kaysha

Now that was a very well written comment. Thank you!

Caecus0

IDK where people are getting the idea that a majority of the playerbase is either Sorc or NB. I play every class (except Arcanist just by virtue that I haven't had a lot of time to level one) and the majority of classes I see are Sorcs, Arcanists and DKs. I see NBs about as often as Templars and Wardens, the latter of which is very strange because Wardens are VERY strong.

I keep seeing all the hate about NBs and sure, they can pack a punch, but they are usually very squishy. When I'm on my NB, it's difficult to do anything in an outnumbered fight if they are even remotely good. Blocking shuts down my NB hard and it is very easy to get caught out of place and just simply die. The NBs saving grace is the burst wombo combo, and if that doesn't kill their target, they're going to have a bad time. The stealth can be annoying to deal with at times, but a lot of things can break it. Everyone is running Weakness to Elements now and that breaks stealth because reasons. Basically, even uncoordinated groups will mess up a NB. My advise against people that hate NB so much are to bring Entropy from the Mage's guild (because that breaks stealth too), Weakness to Elements, or any other form of stealth detection. Combine that with a damage shield and blocking and you are all set to make any NB guaranteed to ignore you or pull their hair out.

These issues are not what I face on either my DK or Sorcerer. If my Sorcerer's burst fails, they have so much pressure damage that it doesn't even matter. Streak is also one of the best skills in the game by far, and being on the receiving end of it is the most frustrating thing to deal with when you are trying to pump damage into them. My DK can be a mixed bag at times, but I can definitely face down more than 1 opponent at a time with virtually nowhere near as many issues as my NB. I gave them Rushing Agony and it's insane how a single Stampede > Take Flight combo can completely wreck a group.

It's hard to gauge my Warden since I built them as a healer. They just plain don't die unless I have an entire group of 4 on me.

Zabagad

Caecus0 wrote: »

IDK where people are getting the idea that a majority of the playerbase is either Sorc or NB. I play every class (except Arcanist just by virtue that I haven't had a lot of time to level one) and the majority of classes I see are Sorcs, Arcanists and DKs. I see NBs about as often as Templars and Wardens, the latter of which is very strange because Wardens are VERY strong.

NB is still the most played class in Cyro (just in case - topic is PvP) - but Sorc is closing the gap.
There are many different methods to measure that - and they all have a (slightly) different results.
The only 2 results which are in all methods the same are #1 NB and #7 Necro (pretty sure all methods have sorc now as #2)

My personal method shows for this campaign 28% NB and 22% Sorcs
(so it's not 75% as OP said - but he is right in his main point so I didn't "correct" that before)
and my method is underestimating NB pretty sure.
And btw DK is at ~15% Arc at ~ 7% and even the numbers can vary a bit and are not sig so far (for U41) - but the range is already accurate.

So that has nothing to do with hate - it's just what it is. (Sorc main here)

notyuu

With scribing on the PTS having an oblivion damage execute (yes, you read that right) you can kiss PvP balance goodbye

Turtle_Bot

notyuu wrote: »

With scribing on the PTS having an oblivion damage execute (yes, you read that right) you can kiss PvP balance goodbye

Going to be interesting to watch all the fotm sorcs instantly vanish when they start just melting through their shields thanks to the oblivion damage execute on scribing abilities.

going to be interesting for sure (and probably why ZOS hasn't currently adjusted ward for now, alongside that scribing effect that removes 1 instance of shield each time it hits).

Bashev

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

notyuu wrote: »

With scribing on the PTS having an oblivion damage execute (yes, you read that right) you can kiss PvP balance goodbye

Going to be interesting to watch all the fotm sorcs instantly vanish when they start just melting through their shields thanks to the oblivion damage execute on scribing abilities.

going to be interesting for sure (and probably why ZOS hasn't currently adjusted ward for now, alongside that scribing effect that removes 1 instance of shield each time it hits).

That is why i think we should get and see how it is. It gives a nice counter vs sorcs and arcansist shields and blockcasting heals for templar, wardens, dks and necros. Again NBs will have the best counter to that skill but you know that NBs are "special".

I still believe that the skill should be only in mele range although that this will give big advantage to sorcs because of streak and all mist fomr vamps.

Zabagad

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

alongside that scribing effect that removes 1 instance of shield each time it hits

Ups - haven't found that in the Patchnotes and I don't want to go to the PTS - so you have a link for me regarding this?

Sounds a bit to much and first thoughts are [snip] and [snip] and is there the same for HoT and negate next heal and next cloak and....
So before I get mad - please give me something where I can get all the details about this...