Lets Not Forget Speed Runs are Part of the game...

ElderSmitter

I am not condoning dis respectful Speed Runs. All i am saying is ZOS Implemented Speed Running Achievements. So naturally some Players including myself (CP 3,000+) Tend to go faster than others. I do not hear or read anyone ever complaining when they get a Speed Run Achievement lol... (Excluding Normal Dungeons) Please Speak up at the start of a dungeon if you're Questing. Many times, i go out of my way to get players Achievements they do not know even existed.

Cheers!

[Edited title for bait]

Daoin

then you are one in a million if you dont skip anything you can in dungeons that require all encounters to be done for those achievments

ElderSmitter

Daoin wrote: »

then you are one in a million if you dont skip anything you can in dungeons that require all encounters to be done for those achievments

Oh no i skip stuff if the group is skipping things. Unless someone says and the group agrees that it is a Kill all Achievement. I also have gone back with 1 other player to kill a few stragglers left being to get them that achievement,.

Sakiri

You just reminded me I gotta do a full run of FG1 at some point because the skip has made me not get the completion achieve.

Vynera

Speedrun requires you to kill all mobs, except in the basegame dungeons and a few old DLC ones.
Most players speedrunning going to skip whatever is possible or die/respawn the way through it, 99% are not doing it for an "achievement".

They think it's faster to skip everything, and the most annoying part is when they pull everything and just run through till they hit a door and then wait 5 minutes to get out of combat to use that door.

Sakiri

Vynera wrote: »

Speedrun requires you to kill all mobs, except in the basegame dungeons and a few old DLC ones.
Most players speedrunning going to skip whatever is possible or die/respawn the way through it, 99% are not doing it for an "achievement".

They think it's faster to skip everything, and the most annoying part is when they pull everything and just run through till they hit a door and then wait 5 minutes to get out of combat to use that door.

That's how normal runs in FFXIV work.

They're called wall to wall pulls, and you're expected to do them.

old_scopie1945

Sakiri wrote: »

Vynera wrote: »

Speedrun requires you to kill all mobs, except in the basegame dungeons and a few old DLC ones.
Most players speedrunning going to skip whatever is possible or die/respawn the way through it, 99% are not doing it for an "achievement".

They think it's faster to skip everything, and the most annoying part is when they pull everything and just run through till they hit a door and then wait 5 minutes to get out of combat to use that door.

That's how normal runs in FFXIV work.

They're called wall to wall pulls, and you're expected to do them.

And your point is? I believe this is ESO.

Sakiri

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

Vynera wrote: »

Speedrun requires you to kill all mobs, except in the basegame dungeons and a few old DLC ones.
Most players speedrunning going to skip whatever is possible or die/respawn the way through it, 99% are not doing it for an "achievement".

They think it's faster to skip everything, and the most annoying part is when they pull everything and just run through till they hit a door and then wait 5 minutes to get out of combat to use that door.

That's how normal runs in FFXIV work.

They're called wall to wall pulls, and you're expected to do them.

And your point is? I believe this is ESO.

My point is, it's becoming more popular as a tactic.

If you don't like it, make your own premade group. I just roll with it because I don't care, when I want to get the quest done I ask my buddy to tank and he paces a little slower.

ganzaeso

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I am not condoning dis respectful Speed Runs. All i am saying is ZOS Implemented Speed Running Achievements. So naturally some Players including myself (CP 3,000+) Tend to go faster than others. I do not hear or read anyone ever complaining when they get a Speed Run Achievement lol... (Excluding Normal Dungeons) Please Speak up at the start of a dungeon if you're Questing. Many times, i go out of my way to get players Achievements they do not know even existed.

Cheers!

The complaints are not coming from speed run achievement as those runs are all done on veteran mode. It is coming from normal runs where new players are being left behind by more experienced players, whom are basically soloing the dungeon for personal gain without considering the goals of the rest of the group.

I personally can solo nFG1 in 6 mins 49s, but I would not do that in a random group, especially because most randoms into the 3 lowest level dungeons are new players or characters that don't have all the fancy stuff for speed that I have.

old_scopie1945

If you could do daily random dungeons solo, that might help. I suspect that means lesser DPSs queuing for a group, which could lead to lesser/longer times. I suspect it might be lesser as there is no end of DPSs at the moment for two slots.

LunaFlora

Speedrun achievements are for Veteran mode and require killing every enemy.
they require teamwork.

normal mode dungeon speedrunners that people complain about skip everything they can and generally do not work with their group.

ShatteredRose6

Speed run achievement is different from other speedrunning complaints which mainly involve fake supports and bad dps speedrunning boss to boss,while leaving new/experienced players behind who want to experience dungeon on a decent speed, loot chests, complete quests,get gear from bosses (still get speed run) and while doin 70- 80% of group dps on the bosses and having to deal with all the ads in dungeon.

Varana

- As has been noted, speedrun achievements are only for vet. Speedrunning normal dungeons is never for any achievement whatsoever.
- If the group can and will keep up with you, that's fine. If not, you should go where the group is. Ideally, where the tank is, but I assume that's you and you just forgot to slot a taunt.
- Questing is not the only reason to go a bit slower. Sometimes people don't know the dungeon well enough yet, especially the less obvious shortcuts. Sometimes people are looking for chests. Sometimes people want to reach the next encounter with a non-empty stamina bar. And so on.
- Skipping mobs by just running through them and leaving others behind to die or deal with them by themselves is a particularly egregious example of being a colossal Richard compensating for a small one.
- Not too many speedrun achievements (to get back to that) actually require the group to go full speed.

Dungeons are group content. A group includes the other people as well, to many a player's surprise. If everyone is fine with playing Speedy Gonzales, great. If not, the group has to find a common ground.

If the rest of the group is too slow for your awesome speed of awesomeness and you don't want to compromise because your awesomeness shines out of your awes, you should leave. That includes RNDs that you can solo.

El_Borracho

ElderSmitter wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

then you are one in a million if you dont skip anything you can in dungeons that require all encounters to be done for those achievments

Oh no i skip stuff if the group is skipping things. Unless someone says and the group agrees that it is a Kill all Achievement. I also have gone back with 1 other player to kill a few stragglers left being to get them that achievement,.

And this, right here, is the key. You do what the group wants to do. If the group wants to speed run, you speed run. If someone in the group needs an achievement, and the group agrees, then you do not speed run.

One player speed running is just as disrespectful as one player who demands that the other 3 players kill all bosses, adds, loot everything, or read every book when the other 3 do not want to. Its group content, not solo playing with a captive audience.

old_scopie1945

Varana wrote: »

- As has been noted, speedrun achievements are only for vet. Speedrunning normal dungeons is never for any achievement whatsoever.
- If the group can and will keep up with you, that's fine. If not, you should go where the group is. Ideally, where the tank is, but I assume that's you and you just forgot to slot a taunt.
- Questing is not the only reason to go a bit slower. Sometimes people don't know the dungeon well enough yet, especially the less obvious shortcuts. Sometimes people are looking for chests. Sometimes people want to reach the next encounter with a non-empty stamina bar. And so on.
- Skipping mobs by just running through them and leaving others behind to die or deal with them by themselves is a particularly egregious example of being a colossal Richard compensating for a small one.
- Not too many speedrun achievements (to get back to that) actually require the group to go full speed.

Dungeons are group content. A group includes the other people as well, to many a player's surprise. If everyone is fine with playing Speedy Gonzales, great. If not, the group has to find a common ground.

If the rest of the group is too slow for your awesome speed of awesomeness and you don't want to compromise because your awesomeness shines out of your awes, you should leave. That includes RNDs that you can solo.

Well said and loads of LOLs. Right between the ribs.

zaria

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

If you could do daily random dungeons solo, that might help. I suspect that means lesser DPSs queuing for a group, which could lead to lesser/longer times. I suspect it might be lesser as there is no end of DPSs at the moment for two slots.

Your random dungeon is frostvault
Main purpose of random dungeons is to fill in missing players in finder.
You could also get one of the long dlc dungeons.

old_scopie1945

zaria wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

If you could do daily random dungeons solo, that might help. I suspect that means lesser DPSs queuing for a group, which could lead to lesser/longer times. I suspect it might be lesser as there is no end of DPSs at the moment for two slots.

Your random dungeon is frostvault
Main purpose of random dungeons is to fill in missing players in finder.
You could also get one of the long dlc dungeons.

Maybe a tailored custom slot as an alternative. There has to be a way around it. Don't be so negative. Please, no thanks for more 'build your own group' for any that disagree with you. Such comments don't help.

AlterBlika

zaria wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

If you could do daily random dungeons solo, that might help. I suspect that means lesser DPSs queuing for a group, which could lead to lesser/longer times. I suspect it might be lesser as there is no end of DPSs at the moment for two slots.

Your random dungeon is frostvault
Main purpose of random dungeons is to fill in missing players in finder.
You could also get one of the long dlc dungeons.

Frostvault, so what?

wolfie1.0.

Saw a streamer complain that eso players are expressing toxic entitlement for NOT wanting to speed run a normal dungeon run. That may be true, but expecting a random normal speed run can also be toxic entitlemen, they are not mutually exclusive and can even happen in the same run.

My philosophy, join a group = work as a group and communicate expectations at the start. Life is too short to get angry at people playing a game.

FlopsyPrince

ElderSmitter wrote: »

I am not condoning dis respectful Speed Runs. All i am saying is ZOS Implemented Speed Running Achievements. So naturally some Players including myself (CP 3,000+) Tend to go faster than others. I do not hear or read anyone ever complaining when they get a Speed Run Achievement lol... (Excluding Normal Dungeons) Please Speak up at the start of a dungeon if you're Questing. Many times, i go out of my way to get players Achievements they do not know even existed.

Cheers!

You ignore that some are doing the dungeon for the quest and skipping things can cause them to miss out on that, especially in the one dungeon (I forget which) where a quest required boss is optional and speedrunners may kill the final boss before the solo player aiming for the quest kills the optional one alone, if they can!

FlopsyPrince

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Saw a streamer complain that eso players are expressing toxic entitlement for NOT wanting to speed run a normal dungeon run. That may be true, but expecting a random normal speed run can also be toxic entitlemen, they are not mutually exclusive and can even happen in the same run.

My philosophy, join a group = work as a group and communicate expectations at the start. Life is too short to get angry at people playing a game.

That is easier on the PC. I do have a keyboard I hooked up to my PS5, but I rarely use it and communicating there is harder, especially since I turn off voice chat so I don't have to listen to someone else's music blasting away....

====

A useful adjustment in the game would be to have a way to say "I need the quest" when starting a dungeon" so everyone could at least know, even on console. Some may still ignore that, but push full completion in those cases.

Sometimes I would rather kill everything in Fungal Grotto for the XP that jump to the final boss, but hard to solo that. At least they did adjust that to automatically put the guys head on the spike when someone else leaves the room.

Jaraal

zaria wrote: »

old_scopie1945 wrote: »

If you could do daily random dungeons solo, that might help. I suspect that means lesser DPSs queuing for a group, which could lead to lesser/longer times. I suspect it might be lesser as there is no end of DPSs at the moment for two slots.

Your random dungeon is frostvault

I've soloed most dungeons, including DLC. And Frostvault is still the most fun for me.

wolfie1.0.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Saw a streamer complain that eso players are expressing toxic entitlement for NOT wanting to speed run a normal dungeon run. That may be true, but expecting a random normal speed run can also be toxic entitlemen, they are not mutually exclusive and can even happen in the same run.

My philosophy, join a group = work as a group and communicate expectations at the start. Life is too short to get angry at people playing a game.

That is easier on the PC. I do have a keyboard I hooked up to my PS5, but I rarely use it and communicating there is harder, especially since I turn off voice chat so I don't have to listen to someone else's music blasting away....

====

A useful adjustment in the game would be to have a way to say "I need the quest" when starting a dungeon" so everyone could at least know, even on console. Some may still ignore that, but push full completion in those cases.

Sometimes I would rather kill everything in Fungal Grotto for the XP that jump to the final boss, but hard to solo that. At least they did adjust that to automatically put the guys head on the spike when someone else leaves the room.

I get that, console play for eso has always been a bit of a mess.

The only existing solution I can think of is to queue in the other group finder first, create a group of questers or speed runners then queue as a group. But that takes way longer than just going in on the random queue.

Neiska

Come, gather around the campfire, while I share the events that occurred to me over the weekend.

I made the decision to cue for a random. Instant role check, loading screen. Oh! A new dungeon? Awesome! Lets have some fun! I explained it was my first time in this dungeon, and that I would like to do the quest. I was met with silence. Then the DPS speed off, swinging their DPS hammers as hard as they can, as fast as they can. First boss went down. Second boss went down. One boss wiped us. The DPS started to get angry, I explained that I didn't know the fight, and that I am also deaf. So if they could explain the fight that would be helpful, or they have to be patient.

The DPS then told me I wasn't important, that I didn't even matter. To just taunt the boss, and then they pulled again. Perhaps unsurprisingly, we wiped. So, I left group. That same DPS then sent me a whisper, using language that I will not repeat here.

I have not logged in since. And I am unsure I will do again. As I am convinced this is how ESO wants it. This is the community. Now, I do want to highlight that its not all people. Its not even most people. But it's enough people, to spoil the experience and enjoyment. So, if I do play again, I most certainly will not do randoms with people whom I do not know.

But I did not come just to complain, I do have possible ideas that might help, in the chance that someone who might be in a position to make a difference reads this.

1. Add more ways to get transmute crystals. I get it, people want to get their dailies done fast as possible. Their crafting writs. All of their daily dungeon bonuses, across multiple characters. They just want to do it as fast as possible. The problem with this is, is that the 10 crystal bonus, actually encourages and even rewards this behavior. Adding more ways to get crystals, and making all dungeon cues the same, will reduce the number of gogogogo vs first timer/quester issues.

2. It wont be popular, but it might help if they didn't group people with 1000-2000 CP or more with people who are still leveling up. If it were up to me, there would be 2 sub-groups of randoms - people who are below 160, and everyone else. Granted, this will increase waiting time. And people do have alt accounts, so a low cp person is by no means a way to help the issue. But its at least something.

3. As far as the "if you want to quest, make your own group!" argument, to that I say, that speeding it, is not the "Default" either. There is no "Default." The only default is that people work together. And I will say that the more difficult the content, the less inclined I was to do randoms. Now? I won't do them at all. I'm transmute capped, and I have a pile of geodes ready to click. I don't NEED the crystals. I barely used them anyway. I was doing dungeons to do quests, and get outfit styles. Thats pretty much it. I don't even need dungeon drops, as I am at the point I need trial drops now.

I have played many mmos. Everquest, Wow, Rift, Vanguard, City of Heroes, etc etc etc. And in my opinion ESO has both some of the best, and some of the worst, as far as communities go. Most people are really helpful and are awesome people. Others? Pretty much "mememememe, minemineminemine, iwantiwantiwantiwant, its all about ME!" And that is fine, you will get that anywhere you go. The problem is, again, just my opinion here, is that such activity seems to be encouraged, not discouraged, which to me is very counter productive. This is certainly one of the most hostile communities I have seen. Its kind of fascinating really, to have both extremes in the same community. But back on topic.

When I do decide to log in again, I will under no circumstances do a random with random people. And you can thank that random DPS person for that. Pretty much the straw that broke the camels back. And I used to purposefully cue for specific dungeons, just to help people get them done. I actually enjoy tanking, when I am allowed to tank. When people rush ahead at blazing speed, then there is no point in me being there. And apparently, according to some people, I don't matter, and I'm not important anyway. And I shall remember that any time I see someone I don't know asking for a tank. Doesn't matter what the activity is. Doesn't matter what the reward is. My answer is going to be no, at least until ESO at least addresses this and makes their official stance known, one way or another.

My two cents on the topic.

PapaTankers

I just want to point out one thing.

I see so many people here bringing up new players as a crux all the time, when we talk about speed runners.

Can we stop pretending that its mostly the newer players? We all know the majority of you are people that are trying to get that skillpoint on their 12th alt that are very familiar with concept of a group finder.

LunaFlora

PapaTankers wrote: »

I just want to point out one thing.

I see so many people here bringing up new players as a crux all the time, when we talk about speed runners.

Can we stop pretending that its mostly the newer players? We all know the majority of you are people that are trying to get that skillpoint on their 12th alt that are very familiar with concept of a group finder.

we're not pretending. obviously the majority of people on the forums are experienced players.
i am not new, but i remember being new and even when leveling up a low level character there are still new people in my groups.

why would i or you not respect them simply because we have done a dungeon dozens of times already?
if you join a random group you shouldn't abandon them and speed through with only 10 transmute crystals on your mind.


And by the way even if someone's level is 1200 they could still be new to a dungeon, even from the base game.
Which is why i don't pretend like everyone is familiar with a dungeon even if they're all champion levels.

PapaTankers

LunaFlora wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

I just want to point out one thing.

I see so many people here bringing up new players as a crux all the time, when we talk about speed runners.

Can we stop pretending that its mostly the newer players? We all know the majority of you are people that are trying to get that skillpoint on their 12th alt that are very familiar with concept of a group finder.

we're not pretending. obviously the majority of people on the forums are experienced players.
i am not new, but i remember being new and even when leveling up a low level character there are still new people in my groups.

why would i or you not respect them simply because we have done a dungeon dozens of times already?
if you join a random group you shouldn't abandon them and speed through with only 10 transmute crystals on your mind.


And by the way even if someone's level is 1200 they could still be new to a dungeon, even from the base game.
Which is why i don't pretend like everyone is familiar with a dungeon even if they're all champion levels.

I also remember beeing new.
Funnily enough this forum seems to think that all new people have a combined iq of 30, that are not able to comperhend what's going on. It would become painfully obvious on what's going on after your first dungeon run.
According to what this forum thinks of new people they wouldn't even be able to open chat box by the time they run a dungeon. It's laughable.

And yes. People here are pretending big time.
They shield themselves behind a new player experiance all the time, when it is infact them that need saving and beeing catered to.

All im saying is. People here that are complaining about speedrunning most deffiently know about group finder already. How many actually new players are showing up in this thread demanding others to slow down.

bmnoble

I don't mind the ones that kill everything in their path so much.

It's the ones that pull everything as they run along, resulting in the mobs killing those following behind trying to keep up, had a few times when myself and other group members got killed at an optional boss preventing them from reviving, while the speed runner just kept going.

I did manage to annoy the heck out of a bunch of speed runners years ago when I was starting out as a tank though focusing more on my own survival than providing buffs for the group, had leeching plate and bahara's curse on, think it was Elden Root 2 where they pulled all the ads and expected the group to wipe to be able to enter one of the boss fights, they ended up kicking me since I couldn't die, thanks to them pulling every ad along the way powering up the aoe damage healing the sets provided.

svendf

Sakiri wrote: »

Vynera wrote: »

Speedrun requires you to kill all mobs, except in the basegame dungeons and a few old DLC ones.
Most players speedrunning going to skip whatever is possible or die/respawn the way through it, 99% are not doing it for an "achievement".

They think it's faster to skip everything, and the most annoying part is when they pull everything and just run through till they hit a door and then wait 5 minutes to get out of combat to use that door.

That's how normal runs in FFXIV work.

They're called wall to wall pulls, and you're expected to do them.

Hi there,

Please don´t compair ESO and 14. They are so fare from each other xD.

Yes we do wall to wall pulls, and a senior good tank often do very large pulls. As a new tank you are not required to do so, which means you can do large pulls as a new tank and the group will support you if you do.

New tanks often do speak out and told to do, what they feel is right for them - if you are in a group with really good raiders, they often give you some good advice. They did that to me.

Remember in 14 there are dedicated tanks, and healers, who do damage as well outside their jobs. Also to remember, skips are not part of the gameplay in 14 - just a side note here.

Another big factor is you are scaled down to the dungeon/trial level, which means you need to rely on your skills of mechanics, and rotation.

furiouslog

Neiska wrote: »

Come, gather around the campfire, while I share the events that occurred to me over the weekend.

I made the decision to cue for a random. Instant role check, loading screen. Oh! A new dungeon? Awesome! Lets have some fun! I explained it was my first time in this dungeon, and that I would like to do the quest. I was met with silence. Then the DPS speed off, swinging their DPS hammers as hard as they can, as fast as they can. First boss went down. Second boss went down. One boss wiped us. The DPS started to get angry, I explained that I didn't know the fight, and that I am also deaf. So if they could explain the fight that would be helpful, or they have to be patient.

The DPS then told me I wasn't important, that I didn't even matter. To just taunt the boss, and then they pulled again. Perhaps unsurprisingly, we wiped. So, I left group. That same DPS then sent me a whisper, using language that I will not repeat here.

I have not logged in since. And I am unsure I will do again. As I am convinced this is how ESO wants it. This is the community. Now, I do want to highlight that its not all people. Its not even most people. But it's enough people, to spoil the experience and enjoyment. So, if I do play again, I most certainly will not do randoms with people whom I do not know.

But I did not come just to complain, I do have possible ideas that might help, in the chance that someone who might be in a position to make a difference reads this.

1. Add more ways to get transmute crystals. I get it, people want to get their dailies done fast as possible. Their crafting writs. All of their daily dungeon bonuses, across multiple characters. They just want to do it as fast as possible. The problem with this is, is that the 10 crystal bonus, actually encourages and even rewards this behavior. Adding more ways to get crystals, and making all dungeon cues the same, will reduce the number of gogogogo vs first timer/quester issues.

2. It wont be popular, but it might help if they didn't group people with 1000-2000 CP or more with people who are still leveling up. If it were up to me, there would be 2 sub-groups of randoms - people who are below 160, and everyone else. Granted, this will increase waiting time. And people do have alt accounts, so a low cp person is by no means a way to help the issue. But its at least something.

3. As far as the "if you want to quest, make your own group!" argument, to that I say, that speeding it, is not the "Default" either. There is no "Default." The only default is that people work together. And I will say that the more difficult the content, the less inclined I was to do randoms. Now? I won't do them at all. I'm transmute capped, and I have a pile of geodes ready to click. I don't NEED the crystals. I barely used them anyway. I was doing dungeons to do quests, and get outfit styles. Thats pretty much it. I don't even need dungeon drops, as I am at the point I need trial drops now.

I have played many mmos. Everquest, Wow, Rift, Vanguard, City of Heroes, etc etc etc. And in my opinion ESO has both some of the best, and some of the worst, as far as communities go. Most people are really helpful and are awesome people. Others? Pretty much "mememememe, minemineminemine, iwantiwantiwantiwant, its all about ME!" And that is fine, you will get that anywhere you go. The problem is, again, just my opinion here, is that such activity seems to be encouraged, not discouraged, which to me is very counter productive. This is certainly one of the most hostile communities I have seen. Its kind of fascinating really, to have both extremes in the same community. But back on topic.

When I do decide to log in again, I will under no circumstances do a random with random people. And you can thank that random DPS person for that. Pretty much the straw that broke the camels back. And I used to purposefully cue for specific dungeons, just to help people get them done. I actually enjoy tanking, when I am allowed to tank. When people rush ahead at blazing speed, then there is no point in me being there. And apparently, according to some people, I don't matter, and I'm not important anyway. And I shall remember that any time I see someone I don't know asking for a tank. Doesn't matter what the activity is. Doesn't matter what the reward is. My answer is going to be no, at least until ESO at least addresses this and makes their official stance known, one way or another.

My two cents on the topic.

I don't agree that the game design promotes a selfish community attitude. I've played many MMOs too, and this has some super toxic people in it, and there are definitely toxic guilds, but it is by far, the least toxic community that I've been a part of in the last 20 years.

The solution to all of your problems is to join a social guild that curates and provides training for different kinds of content, and then get in Discord and coordinate your opportunities. Anyone who wants a friendlier experience in ESO has already done this, because they realize that the probability that you'll get a bad actor in a random grouping is much higher than getting a bad actor in a planned experience. If you only expose yourself to the most toxic players in the game (i.e. people who can't stay in a guild because they are just plain awful humans), then yes, I could see how you'd come away with a universally negative impression. But you have not explored all avenues in the game, as intended by its design, and until you do, your opinion is not really based on a complete set of data. Furthermore, you are overreacting to this situation. When tempers flare, put the other player on ignore and move on, this kind of ultimatum quit post will do absolutely nothing except invite unflattering comments on your emotional sensitivity.

Finally, it seems contradictory to complain about having other ways to get transmutes and then saying you have too many transmutes. It seems your solution is to get them without doing either dungeons or PVP. Why are you even playing the game in that case?

Dawnblade

Nuance always gets lost in these discussions.

A speed runner who plays well and has consideration for others in the group is fine, no reason to go slow just to go slow - even most new(er) players in group finder are just there for the XP and loot (and the skill point possibly).

It's the speed runner who loads in before anyone else, pays no heed to the others in group, and somehow makes a mess of the run (getting others killed, leaving others locked behind doors, etc) that annoy me.

As for the quests and skill points, they should have fixed that years ago by tying the skill point to the first completion of the dungeon - not a quest with slow NPCs and a bunch of useless exposition.

Another poster put it best - the rewards structure is not set up to encourage group play.

Give the 'I can solo it all without you' types a way to get their crystals elsewhere and add incentives for everyone in a group that has a character who completes the quest for the first time so players are rewarded for helping others.