NB changes don't make much sense

NBlade · February 24

Incap / Sustain changes from a PVE perspective.

These concern me the most, the lost Reave, is like expected, a sustain loss, now are forced to use Siphoning Attacks, and on top of it gives less regen than old Leeching / Attacks, even without Reave, even without landing any light attacks (live). But I think someone broke it down when the first Patchnotes were posted.

Siphoning Attacks on pts provides like 173/s , maybe an CMX bug, but i doubt it, since it feels bad.

Leeching on live gives 198/s (plus 87/s for LA) and Reave another 87/s. (thats 372/s total) so we get less than half (186) of it in the next patch (173 for just slotting it).

sure, the new morph works passively from the backbar, and in a sweaty situation, we could hit it when moving or waiting for an immunity phase is over. And it even works for new players that don't land as many LA just yet.

I probably would love it (siphoning attacks, NOT leeching) on my Tank, but I don't find the Barspace for it, nor are BladeTanks taken into Content where I would actually need it, and again, Reave on Frontbar is enough for my Tank.

Do we really need to dumb down Blades? It has a high skill ceiling, and thats why most people like it, just like Necro. There are 5 other Classes to choose from.

So insted of Reave, we get 12s incaps, if we wait for more Ult? This is just for even more PvP OPness, right? Because, no matter what I tried, on a Dummy, it does not get better results. The current 8s are perfect to line everything up, not just on a Dummy.

All in all, we get less sustain, are forced into slotting Siphoning Attacks, loosing a Backbar dot because of it.

The Drastic changes to Siphoning Attacks, I see where its coming from, but i rather take the old ones, maybe with the new mech that it can be passive, but if activated its same as the old, or something like that, there must be a middle ground.

The loss of Reave is just unnecessary, and the increased duration worthless.

Please consider just dropping these changes and give us more Cleave, that is what Blades need in Content.

NBlade · February 24

Just for example, one of my favorite Themed Builds i ran for Daily stuff, that is very Stamina hungry, still works on the dummy, but as soon as i hit content, where I need to interrupt, roll and block, its useless now and have to actively use Siphoning Attacks ever so often on the backbar, resulting in a more complex gameplay than before. On live it's just (borderline) fine.

I don't think that this is the Devs intention.

Play as you like don't apply anymore with all these Sustain issues.

Many Casuals will suffer from this, and enchant their Jewelry with Recovery Glyphs, making them even more Casual.

Mix it with Health / Stam food, and i can decon that build.

mmtaniac · February 24

Finally no free sustain on nb. Cast and forget classes are templar and Warden. Nb should work for it. You have massive damage in compesate.

NBlade · February 24

mmtaniac wrote: »

Finally no free sustain on nb. Cast and forget classes are templar and Warden. Nb should work for it. You have massive damage in compesate.

but.. although we get less sustain, its literally free now, without working for it (landing LA's or activate a skill every 20s)

mmtaniac · February 24

You get sustain with healthy cost but not whole bar after 20 seconds like before and this is good. Light attacks is working. You must do something at least. Before you could stay in stealth whole 20 seconds and regen whole stamina bar. Just by waiting.

MashmalloMan · February 24

I can not for an ounce of my life understand a single NB complaining about Siphoning Attack/Reave changes. It's a miracle these are hitting live and Reave should have never existed in the first place.

Count your blessings is all I'm saying. Compare Siphoning Attacks to every single sustain tool in the game. It is miles ahead.

MudcrabAttack · February 24

The changes have done nothing to help nightblade in PVE trials. They’re just flat out weaker now.

SandandStars · February 24

Very much seems that NB changes are designed with the sole intent of improving and increasing its dominance in PVP.

MudcrabAttack · February 24

Maybe the whole goal this patch was to move warden out of last place / least used class by making nightblade so much worse with a 10% damage nerf

Vaqual · February 24

I like the change a lot and I think the reception is out of proportion from both ends of the spectrum. It is going to be worse for players who can reliably get 100 % value from light attacks (mostly players with ranged weapons and/or high movement speed) and single resource builds (benefit more from high % returns on recoveries), but a buff for all other playstyles. The health cost is also more than ok for the amount of resource restored. If it gets abused by trolly block tanks they can also add a small ramp to the health cost or something like that.

MashmalloMan · February 24

SandandStars wrote: »

Very much seems that NB changes are designed with the sole intent of improving and increasing its dominance in PVP.

Yep. They seriously didn't need the help there. I think it was a snow ball effect honestly.

Started by wanting to add "while slotted on either bar" effect to Soul Harvest... because 4 passive bonuses wasn't enough (Major Prophecy/Savagery + Major Resolve + 300-400 damage Grim Focus + 300 damage Vamp)... now it's 6 with Soul Harvest and Siphoning Attacks.
They then realized there was an opportunity to better differentiate the morphs (they will be doing this with all classes because of hybridization).
So they removed Reeve to make it better at dishing out big damage as it's the morph with a unique 120 ult cost effect, and decided to shift that missing sustain to their actual sustain skill... a good, reasonable call as Reeve was just a bandaid to begin with.
Since they're hell bent on simplifying all the classes, they looked at Siphoning Strikes and decided to completely revamp it when adding Reeve sustain back in to not require light attacks at all. Grim Focus already does this. Fine.
The original skill gave 106 stam or mag back a second when weaving, with Reeves effect added, this becomes about 200 stam/mag/s... Since hybridization made choosing "stam" vs "mag" morph, they decided Siphoning Attacks would now just do both in 1 ability to give the opportunity for a new morph, in this case, focused on heal/s.
Finally, what we can only assume is because NB is some pvp devs favourite class and they like to copy/paste effects between Sorc and NB, they added the Dark Deal effect for burst resources, but based on health cost... cuz NB's are edgy

Honestly. I like the idea behind Siphoning Attacks, but it's just way too powerful right now with no cast required and BOTH stam and mag return for only health cost. No other sustain skill in the game is this powerful. A more balanced approach would have been to separate the main/off resources and lower the value slightly to account for the fact that you no longer need to light attack weave or cast the ability at all to get payoff from it. It can sit on your back bar.

Siphoning Attacks = +180 highest max resource/s + 90 lowest max resource/s. 2.6k highest max resource + 1.3k lowest max resource on cast. Still heals 1250/s.

Leeching Strikes = Remove the -100% cost reduction, increase the healing slightly to 2k, instead of 1850. On cast gives 2k main resource and 1k off resource.

In regards to PVE NB balance. Major Berserk should have never been added to Concealed Weapon for 15s in the first place, it became a must have passive effect on every NB build, not a spammable. It was a bandaid the same way Sorc's have +45% pet damage on Daedric Prey. They only did this because Update 35 messed the class balance so much.

Only thing I would change is to make the new +10% bonus on Concealed Weapon count from Major Expedition again.... then look at buffing Mark target to increase damage dealt to monsters by 10-15% making them the best at focussing down priority targets as THEY SHOULD BE.

We don't need every class to behave the same. If your class has huge aoe dps (Arcanist), it should deal less single target dps and vise versa. Sorc/NB's are best in single target, so make that as clear as possible and lean into it.

ItsNotLiving · February 25

I honestly cannot feel bad for nightblade mains I play PvP and it’s just so beyond op there’s just no point in playing any other class even warden and DK are so far behind it.

KS_Amt38 · February 25

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Maybe the whole goal this patch was to move warden out of last place / least used class by making nightblade so much worse with a 10% damage nerf

Once one of the strongest class in the game is nowadays a joke. Seems like the devs dont intend to make NB ever interesting again in PvE.

hypnoticbeast · February 25

People. From the bottom of my heart. PLEASE STOP with the Nightblade hate. Just please stop. The devs will continue to make and buff that class into a PVP holy terror as long as they want. And why you ask? Because the more toxic it gets in PVP the more that class will be what it is in that game play and will stay that way to show that this is still THEIR game. So, when the more hate is spewed about the NB the more, they dig in with what that class is in PVP. You want that change PVP? Stop with the hate. The devs reasoning for the PVE/Content nerf was that where too many NB out there. And to be honest there were. My average reg trail run at that time was 7-3 NB to other classes with 250K execute hits for each NB. No joke. So, they gave a very unfair 4x nerf to the most useful PVE skills so players would switch to other classes. Most NB players HAD to switch to a PVP build to keep similar numbers in Content. Then they forgot about us in PVE for almost 3 years. But not PVP. You want the NB community to let up on all the PVP'rs out there? Scream for the devs to do something about the NB in PVE so they (the NB) will have somewhere ELSE they can be and have something ELSE to go other than terrorize the PVP community. You all have waited long enough for some peace. Below are some ideas that would benefit the PVE side of this discussion.

Siphoning Strikes should be.
Imbue your weapons with LIFE-stealing power dealing magic damage with life steal for 20 seconds. The damage and heal % is based on your highest weapon or spell power.

Morphs
S.A.
Imbue your weapons FROM your STAMINA with LIFE-stealing power dealing magic damage with life and magika steal for 20 seconds. The damage, heal sustain % is based on your highest weapon or spell power.

L.S.
Imbue your weapons FROM your MAGIKA with LIFE-stealing power dealing disease damage (Too Much for pvp?) with life and stamina steal for 20 seconds. The damage, heal sustain % is based on your highest weapon or spell power.

This is all that needs to be done to fix the NB sustain. That way the resource that is NEEDED to be used is done so without the need for a staff or physical weapon and this "passive on all the time" nonsense can stop. Now some out there myself included would live to see Major Brut/Sorc on this skill. It will make it more dummy useable. But what about the skills that have that buff? Glad you asked.

Drain Power.
Siphon Vigor from your enemies' blood dealing x Magic damage to nearby enemies. IF an enemy is hit, you gain Major Brut/Sorc. Increasing your Weapon and Spell damage by 20% for 30 seconds.

This need to be a 1% W/S power buff per target per target max 6 targets and only buff the NB. Rember "NO TRASH, NO DPS BUFF"

Morphs.
Sap Essence.
Siphon Vigor from your enemies' blood dealing x magic damage to nearby enemies and healing you and your allies for 599 plus 20% more for each hit Instead of buffing you. IF an enemy is hit, your Allies will gain blood armor and give Minor Resolve for a max of six players at a time for 30 seconds.

Power Extraction.
Siphon Vigor from your enemies' blood dealing x Disease damage to nearby enemies. IF an enemy is hit, your Allies gain Minor Courage increasing their w/s power by 215 for 30 seconds. And Minor Cowardice to all targets hit for 30 seconds.

This will give the NB more uses in PVE trials has a healer and tank. Both of the above will stack like crazy with warden and Cro.

Swallow Soul.
Seal the enemy's life force dealing x magic damage and healing you for 35% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds.

This needs to be a CLEAVE. So what do you do as a cleave for the CRIT class without causing a stroke? Here are some ideas.

Swallow Soul.
1. This is now a cone attack. Steal an enemy's life force, dealing x amount of damage and increasing by 5% damage per target to a max of 15% damage for the SKILL.. If less Targets are present the Crit chance FOR THE SKILL increasing by 5% for each MISSING target with a max of 15%. And heals for 35% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds.

Now I know my fellow shadow fiends are looking at like "YOU WANT TO TAKE MY MINOR C?!?!?" WHY put that in their heads Bro'? WHY?! Easy so we can get MAJOR C instead.

Mass Hysteria.
Summon a dark spirit to terrify all nearby enemies, causing them to cower in fear for 3 seconds and be afflicted with Major Cowardice reducing their weapon and spell power by 430 and the spirit empowers YOU with Major Courage for 10 seconds. Increasing your weapon and spell power by 430.

This is the perfect replacement for the major berserk buff nerf.

Lastly we have Reapers Mark. There is talk about this being replaced with Major Vulnerability. Squash that right now. Bad bad idea. It will cause two dungeons to go dead overnight and will not see that much use and lose the reasons to go if Major Vulnerability replaced the breach. This skill needs to be for monsters ONLY. All the skill needs to get it's GROUP dps up for trial use is the adding of Minor breach and Minor Vulnerability and lose the Major B buff after. That way wardens will not worry about using their bug swarm on the twins in VDSR. And the tanks can slot another skill other than puncture. This change will be useful for dps as well WITHOUT that useless Major B buff.

This expirence comes from playing as a NB for 4 years and playing through every bad choice that has been done to this class.
If you want there to be less NB in PVP then take the above list and RE-POST, RE-POST, RE-POST. and don't stop until the number of red shadows in PVP go's down. Cheers

MudcrabAttack · February 26

I'd settle for the Devs just fixing Nightblade so that it's not a horrible choice for trials, rather than making them a token class in PVE that must exist as some form of buff jail on an otherwise horrible choice.

The last time I enjoyed taking a Nightblade into a trifecta prog was update 37. It was obviously not BIS, but still felt rewarding to put in the effort and see a result that showed I wasn't being carried by the group. Concealed weapon was a bandaid gimmick at the time, but at least it was a passive gimmick. Nightblade has been stuck as a single target direct damage class for so long, but the AOE was actually not horrible in those trial runs since we could buff all AOE skills 10% by simply standing in major expedition.

The latest changes to siphoning feel like they're supposed to be some kind of consolation for pushing the class all the way down the ladder in PVE. I could see it being useful in Vateshran or the Archive. But Siphoning and Reeve haven't been needed in organized trials for a while
https://www.esologs.com/reports/fvDm8Yqxwc73Nbtj#fight=2&type=summary&source=3
the supports in my group have always been spot-on with the resource regen.

I get the feeling that the development goal for all the different classes is falling into the same design as racial choices. Wood elves, Redguard, and Bretons are forever exactly 258 weapon damage behind the other options in trials since the regen is completely unnecessary there. So you want to PVP? Get a wood elf nightblade. Want to PVE? Get a dunmer arcanist. that's all you need. Have fun.

ClowdyAllDay · February 26

The real problem with night blade is that it's hard to make it unique from a vampire. i have heard some people call them complimentary but truly they are redundant. It's like someone decided they wanted to be a vampire without actually being a vampire. In any case if you want to play stamblade you will probably want to be a vampire as they are basically requiring it for sustain. i have some stam builds and drain vigor seems essential for sustain. Looks like i will be needed more after update.