Minor Mangle

i11ionward

PTS Patch Notes v9.3.0

Hemorrhaging no longer applies Minor Mangle. I think a skills that always apply Hemorrhaging before update 41 should now always apply the Minor Mangle too.
I'm talking about these skills:
Rending Slashes
Ruinous Scythe
Otherwise it will look like a decent nerf to these skills.

i11ionward

I agree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe should apply Minor Mangle

Those who vote against, please give feedback for your position, I really don’t understand why someone could be against it if this mechanic literally the same as update 40.
I'd also like to remind you that after update 41, we will only have one source of Minor Mangle.
Pulsar

Vaqual

I diagree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe shouldn't apply Minor Mangle

The easy access to 3x bleed stacks is more than enough compensation.
But yes, they should think about sourcing this buff somewhere besides Pulsar.

Panderbander

I diagree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe shouldn't apply Minor Mangle

The extra damage makes it so these abilities would be too strong with mangle attached, though there definitely needs to be more sources for it now.

xDeusEJRx

I agree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe should apply Minor Mangle

I think any counters to health based builds is a good thing. Too many metas where you can stack high health high survivability and still kill players, so any counters to high health is a good thing imo.

Now the PVE crowd who this update is intended for, will probably not agree so they won't support such a change.

Galeriano

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think any counters to health based builds is a good thing. Too many metas where you can stack high health high survivability and still kill players, so any counters to high health is a good thing imo.

Now the PVE crowd who this update is intended for, will probably not agree so they won't support such a change.

Problem with counters like that in general is that they always end up targeting the most those who are not abusing things that this counters are meant to counter.

For example let's assume You have a 30k HP player and a 40k HP player. After applying mangle to both that 30k HP player will end up with 27k and that 40k HP player with 36k HP. So difference in their health barely changed but when 36k HP can still take come hefty combo and survive, that 27k HP player will now have to be extra cautious and one mistake will cost him life. So at the end of the day tanky players are still tanky and those who were not building for tankiness are becoming squishier. So with supposed counters to tankiness game is paradoxically punishing people for not building tanky, encouraging tank meta even more.

The same issues is repeating with many subjects. Healing debuffs are usually the strongest against people with weak healing and increasing overall damage pressure is the strongest against people with less tankiness. ZoS heavily fails in introducing features that would allow to build specifically to target tanky setups without targeting everyone else even more.

xDeusEJRx

I agree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe should apply Minor Mangle

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think any counters to health based builds is a good thing. Too many metas where you can stack high health high survivability and still kill players, so any counters to high health is a good thing imo.

Now the PVE crowd who this update is intended for, will probably not agree so they won't support such a change.

Problem with counters like that in general is that they always end up targeting the most those who are not abusing things that this counters are meant to counter.

For example let's assume You have a 30k HP player and a 40k HP player. After applying mangle to both that 30k HP player will end up with 27k and that 40k HP player with 36k HP. So difference in their health barely changed but when 36k HP can still take come hefty combo and survive, that 27k HP player will now have to be extra cautious and one mistake will cost him life. So at the end of the day tanky players are still tanky and those who were not building for tankiness are becoming squishier. So with supposed counters to tankiness game is paradoxically punishing people for not building tanky, encouraging tank meta even more.

The same issues is repeating with many subjects. Healing debuffs are usually the strongest against people with weak healing and increasing overall damage pressure is the strongest against people with less tankiness. ZoS heavily fails in introducing features that would allow to build specifically to target tanky setups without targeting everyone else even more.

Normally I would agree, but this is a matter of having a counter versus virtually deleting out a counter entirely. It's like defile debate, people have said the same for defile and how it can affect people who aren't abusing heals more.
But at least defile exists in the game still in many sources. Minor mangle is a rare debuff to find in skills, this is almost deleting it from the game's PVP, which is already in a state where too many people are survivable.

Galeriano

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think any counters to health based builds is a good thing. Too many metas where you can stack high health high survivability and still kill players, so any counters to high health is a good thing imo.

Now the PVE crowd who this update is intended for, will probably not agree so they won't support such a change.

Problem with counters like that in general is that they always end up targeting the most those who are not abusing things that this counters are meant to counter.

For example let's assume You have a 30k HP player and a 40k HP player. After applying mangle to both that 30k HP player will end up with 27k and that 40k HP player with 36k HP. So difference in their health barely changed but when 36k HP can still take come hefty combo and survive, that 27k HP player will now have to be extra cautious and one mistake will cost him life. So at the end of the day tanky players are still tanky and those who were not building for tankiness are becoming squishier. So with supposed counters to tankiness game is paradoxically punishing people for not building tanky, encouraging tank meta even more.

The same issues is repeating with many subjects. Healing debuffs are usually the strongest against people with weak healing and increasing overall damage pressure is the strongest against people with less tankiness. ZoS heavily fails in introducing features that would allow to build specifically to target tanky setups without targeting everyone else even more.

Normally I would agree, but this is a matter of having a counter versus virtually deleting out a counter entirely. It's like defile debate, people have said the same for defile and how it can affect people who aren't abusing heals more.
But at least defile exists in the game still in many sources. Minor mangle is a rare debuff to find in skills, this is almost deleting it from the game's PVP, which is already in a state where too many people are survivable.

The whole issue is that mangle is not a counter against high health setups. High health setups are counter against mangle.

xDeusEJRx

I agree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe should apply Minor Mangle

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think any counters to health based builds is a good thing. Too many metas where you can stack high health high survivability and still kill players, so any counters to high health is a good thing imo.

Now the PVE crowd who this update is intended for, will probably not agree so they won't support such a change.

Problem with counters like that in general is that they always end up targeting the most those who are not abusing things that this counters are meant to counter.

For example let's assume You have a 30k HP player and a 40k HP player. After applying mangle to both that 30k HP player will end up with 27k and that 40k HP player with 36k HP. So difference in their health barely changed but when 36k HP can still take come hefty combo and survive, that 27k HP player will now have to be extra cautious and one mistake will cost him life. So at the end of the day tanky players are still tanky and those who were not building for tankiness are becoming squishier. So with supposed counters to tankiness game is paradoxically punishing people for not building tanky, encouraging tank meta even more.

The same issues is repeating with many subjects. Healing debuffs are usually the strongest against people with weak healing and increasing overall damage pressure is the strongest against people with less tankiness. ZoS heavily fails in introducing features that would allow to build specifically to target tanky setups without targeting everyone else even more.

Normally I would agree, but this is a matter of having a counter versus virtually deleting out a counter entirely. It's like defile debate, people have said the same for defile and how it can affect people who aren't abusing heals more.
But at least defile exists in the game still in many sources. Minor mangle is a rare debuff to find in skills, this is almost deleting it from the game's PVP, which is already in a state where too many people are survivable.

The whole issue is that mangle is not a counter against high health setups. High health setups are counter against mangle.

High health has never been a counter to mangle, it's always been a response to high damage metas. Like for example malacath meta, people would build high health because it's possible to still deal damage because of malacath's 25% and procs and you can survive with it.

Right now people are building high health NOT because mangle exists, it's because damage is high SOLELY because of procs( and high damage gank builds). It has nothing to do with mangle in it's current state.

Not to mention that you serve to benefit from high HP from tons of health scaling skills like Green dragons blood, Sorc shields, Dark cloak, Arcanist shields, Warden polar wind, so on and so forth.

The point is the game rewards you for being high health, so people are gonna build it, especially when they're more scared to die than ever because of uncounterable proc damage. There's no incentive not to and it has nothing to do with mangle existing.

Galeriano

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think any counters to health based builds is a good thing. Too many metas where you can stack high health high survivability and still kill players, so any counters to high health is a good thing imo.

Now the PVE crowd who this update is intended for, will probably not agree so they won't support such a change.

Problem with counters like that in general is that they always end up targeting the most those who are not abusing things that this counters are meant to counter.

For example let's assume You have a 30k HP player and a 40k HP player. After applying mangle to both that 30k HP player will end up with 27k and that 40k HP player with 36k HP. So difference in their health barely changed but when 36k HP can still take come hefty combo and survive, that 27k HP player will now have to be extra cautious and one mistake will cost him life. So at the end of the day tanky players are still tanky and those who were not building for tankiness are becoming squishier. So with supposed counters to tankiness game is paradoxically punishing people for not building tanky, encouraging tank meta even more.

The same issues is repeating with many subjects. Healing debuffs are usually the strongest against people with weak healing and increasing overall damage pressure is the strongest against people with less tankiness. ZoS heavily fails in introducing features that would allow to build specifically to target tanky setups without targeting everyone else even more.

Normally I would agree, but this is a matter of having a counter versus virtually deleting out a counter entirely. It's like defile debate, people have said the same for defile and how it can affect people who aren't abusing heals more.
But at least defile exists in the game still in many sources. Minor mangle is a rare debuff to find in skills, this is almost deleting it from the game's PVP, which is already in a state where too many people are survivable.

The whole issue is that mangle is not a counter against high health setups. High health setups are counter against mangle.

High health has never been a counter to mangle, it's always been a response to high damage metas. Like for example malacath meta, people would build high health because it's possible to still deal damage because of malacath's 25% and procs and you can survive with it.

Right now people are building high health NOT because mangle exists, it's because damage is high SOLELY because of procs( and high damage gank builds). It has nothing to do with mangle in it's current state.

Not to mention that you serve to benefit from high HP from tons of health scaling skills like Green dragons blood, Sorc shields, Dark cloak, Arcanist shields, Warden polar wind, so on and so forth.

The point is the game rewards you for being high health, so people are gonna build it, especially when they're more scared to die than ever because of uncounterable proc damage. There's no incentive not to and it has nothing to do with mangle existing.

I never said high health is an intentional counter to mangle that people build for specifically. It's just a counter simply by its nature. You don't counter people with high HP with mangle You counter people with lower HP with it. So at the end of the day high health player remain at high health and low health players starts considering increasing their health.

xylena_lazarow

I diagree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe shouldn't apply Minor Mangle

I've never seen Minor Mangle be a factor in anything other than clearing PvE trash mobs. It was a waste of power budget for Hemorrhaging and I'm glad they put that power into simply dealing more damage.

xDeusEJRx

I agree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe should apply Minor Mangle

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think any counters to health based builds is a good thing. Too many metas where you can stack high health high survivability and still kill players, so any counters to high health is a good thing imo.

Now the PVE crowd who this update is intended for, will probably not agree so they won't support such a change.

Problem with counters like that in general is that they always end up targeting the most those who are not abusing things that this counters are meant to counter.

For example let's assume You have a 30k HP player and a 40k HP player. After applying mangle to both that 30k HP player will end up with 27k and that 40k HP player with 36k HP. So difference in their health barely changed but when 36k HP can still take come hefty combo and survive, that 27k HP player will now have to be extra cautious and one mistake will cost him life. So at the end of the day tanky players are still tanky and those who were not building for tankiness are becoming squishier. So with supposed counters to tankiness game is paradoxically punishing people for not building tanky, encouraging tank meta even more.

The same issues is repeating with many subjects. Healing debuffs are usually the strongest against people with weak healing and increasing overall damage pressure is the strongest against people with less tankiness. ZoS heavily fails in introducing features that would allow to build specifically to target tanky setups without targeting everyone else even more.

Normally I would agree, but this is a matter of having a counter versus virtually deleting out a counter entirely. It's like defile debate, people have said the same for defile and how it can affect people who aren't abusing heals more.
But at least defile exists in the game still in many sources. Minor mangle is a rare debuff to find in skills, this is almost deleting it from the game's PVP, which is already in a state where too many people are survivable.

The whole issue is that mangle is not a counter against high health setups. High health setups are counter against mangle.

High health has never been a counter to mangle, it's always been a response to high damage metas. Like for example malacath meta, people would build high health because it's possible to still deal damage because of malacath's 25% and procs and you can survive with it.

Right now people are building high health NOT because mangle exists, it's because damage is high SOLELY because of procs( and high damage gank builds). It has nothing to do with mangle in it's current state.

Not to mention that you serve to benefit from high HP from tons of health scaling skills like Green dragons blood, Sorc shields, Dark cloak, Arcanist shields, Warden polar wind, so on and so forth.

The point is the game rewards you for being high health, so people are gonna build it, especially when they're more scared to die than ever because of uncounterable proc damage. There's no incentive not to and it has nothing to do with mangle existing.

I never said high health is an intentional counter to mangle that people build for specifically. It's just a counter simply by its nature. You don't counter people with high HP with mangle You counter people with lower HP with it. So at the end of the day high health player remain at high health and low health players starts considering increasing their health.

You said high health setups are a counter against mangle which is not true. No one in eso history has said "Oh woops i'm mangled, gotta get more health my setup to counter that"

People are saying that in response to high damage metas, proc based builds gimping them, bomb builds, gankers and because high health rewards you for it.

It's weird to want to remove sources of a debuff just because of the logic, "well it will hurt the little guy" as if people are going out of their way to find a rare debuff like mangle just to debuff weak players. Most players aren't saying, "well I need to slot impulse to kill this person" and the only ones that do are ball group players, but ball groups are strong because of damage procs and healing, not because of mangle.

necro_the_crafter

I diagree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe shouldn't apply Minor Mangle

minor mangle is stronger than major vuln, its shouldnt be easily sourced.

Increasings enemies damage recieved by 10% means you have to deal 10% less overall damage to kill them, but they still has their full health scaling abilities and passives work to a full extent like a warden heal, undeath or sets like pariah.

But mangle stright out removes 10% from hp pool, which is even better then oblivion damage,cuz you cant heal that, while also cuts all health scaling effects, and basicly like a major vuln, you have to deal 10% less overall damage to kill your target.

for examle your target have 11k health, and your hits do 5k damage - in this matter you have to hit 3 times to kill
now lets introduce major vuln, your hits now do 5.5k damage, 2 hits to kill
now lets look at the mangle 11k - 10%(1.1k) = 9.9k health left, 2 hits to kill

considering above scaling factors, thay actualy the same, but major vuln is higly valued and rarely sourced form 1 class ulti and two sets, while mangle was a status proc avalible to anyone.

Necrotech_Master

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

minor mangle is stronger than major vuln, its shouldnt be easily sourced.

Increasings enemies damage recieved by 10% means you have to deal 10% less overall damage to kill them, but they still has their full health scaling abilities and passives work to a full extent like a warden heal, undeath or sets like pariah.

But mangle stright out removes 10% from hp pool, which is even better then oblivion damage,cuz you cant heal that, while also cuts all health scaling effects, and basicly like a major vuln, you have to deal 10% less overall damage to kill your target.

for examle your target have 11k health, and your hits do 5k damage - in this matter you have to hit 3 times to kill
now lets introduce major vuln, your hits now do 5.5k damage, 2 hits to kill
now lets look at the mangle 11k - 10%(1.1k) = 9.9k health left, 2 hits to kill

considering above scaling factors, thay actualy the same, but major vuln is higly valued and rarely sourced form 1 class ulti and two sets, while mangle was a status proc avalible to anyone.

mangle does not work against most boss enemies and even some elites, so in actual PVE content like trials and dungeons, in the fights that matter mangle wont even do anything

necro_the_crafter

I diagree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe shouldn't apply Minor Mangle

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

mangle does not work against most boss enemies and even some elites, so in actual PVE content like trials and dungeons, in the fights that matter mangle wont even do anything

so there is no need for it in pve i guess, one aoe sourse from pulsar is more than enough on trash fights.

MashmalloMan

I diagree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe shouldn't apply Minor Mangle

Adding minor mangle to a spammable (Rending Slashes + Master DW) proved to be a big issue in pvp. Making it universally available and easy to obtain was a big mistake. PVP crowd is happy to see it go.

Scythe or Rending Slashes is not the right place to add this back, it needs to be on non spammable abilities so there is actually a cost/reward structure built into applying the debuff. When it was added to hemorrhaging it became free, adding it to spammables made it more free, adding back on to spammables after removing it is just regressing to the original issue.

Scythe and Rending Slashes are already reaching the maximum capacity of their skill budget imo. Mangle was lost, but it was replaced with more dps from hemo. Like why are we trying to overload these skills even more than they already are?

Rending Slashes is in the dot category. It has 2 direct upfront hits instead of 100% dot, direct damage is more important for kill potential and double dips damage done bonuses like DK's stagger or MA 2H, snares, increased damage, more dps from execute/cc targets and can be combined with Masters DW to make it into a spammable. It surpasses any other comparable dot like Degen, Reach, Blood Craze, etc. Poison Injection is probably equal in power budget, has direct damage, good passives, and most importantly, execute scaling.

Scythe is in the aoe spammable category. It's the classes HP% burst heal, it procs off balance, and it procs hemo. I can only think of 1 aoe spammable with a higher skill budget than that. Arcanist Tentacle, which everyone knows is completely overloaded because it snares, debuffs for more damage done, generates crux, and to top it all off, has execute scaling which is a specific morph effect for Whirling Blades and Poison Injection. It's so good, it makes the mag morph and the class spammable useless, despite those skills being really good on their own.

To be clear, I'm not saying these 2 skills need nerfs, I'm saying they're a good standard for skill balance other skills should be brought up to.

Necro needs help elsewhere in the kit, in regards to Scythe, an example would be Sacrifical Bones increasing all necro skill damage instead of just gravelord/dot allowing for players giving up Blastbones to get Scythe to scale so high it's similar to a single target spammable.

If you want to add minor mangle it should appear on utility skills, like Grasp or Circle of Protection as examples. Not spammables.

Galeriano

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I think any counters to health based builds is a good thing. Too many metas where you can stack high health high survivability and still kill players, so any counters to high health is a good thing imo.

Now the PVE crowd who this update is intended for, will probably not agree so they won't support such a change.

Problem with counters like that in general is that they always end up targeting the most those who are not abusing things that this counters are meant to counter.

For example let's assume You have a 30k HP player and a 40k HP player. After applying mangle to both that 30k HP player will end up with 27k and that 40k HP player with 36k HP. So difference in their health barely changed but when 36k HP can still take come hefty combo and survive, that 27k HP player will now have to be extra cautious and one mistake will cost him life. So at the end of the day tanky players are still tanky and those who were not building for tankiness are becoming squishier. So with supposed counters to tankiness game is paradoxically punishing people for not building tanky, encouraging tank meta even more.

The same issues is repeating with many subjects. Healing debuffs are usually the strongest against people with weak healing and increasing overall damage pressure is the strongest against people with less tankiness. ZoS heavily fails in introducing features that would allow to build specifically to target tanky setups without targeting everyone else even more.

Normally I would agree, but this is a matter of having a counter versus virtually deleting out a counter entirely. It's like defile debate, people have said the same for defile and how it can affect people who aren't abusing heals more.
But at least defile exists in the game still in many sources. Minor mangle is a rare debuff to find in skills, this is almost deleting it from the game's PVP, which is already in a state where too many people are survivable.

The whole issue is that mangle is not a counter against high health setups. High health setups are counter against mangle.

High health has never been a counter to mangle, it's always been a response to high damage metas. Like for example malacath meta, people would build high health because it's possible to still deal damage because of malacath's 25% and procs and you can survive with it.

Right now people are building high health NOT because mangle exists, it's because damage is high SOLELY because of procs( and high damage gank builds). It has nothing to do with mangle in it's current state.

Not to mention that you serve to benefit from high HP from tons of health scaling skills like Green dragons blood, Sorc shields, Dark cloak, Arcanist shields, Warden polar wind, so on and so forth.

The point is the game rewards you for being high health, so people are gonna build it, especially when they're more scared to die than ever because of uncounterable proc damage. There's no incentive not to and it has nothing to do with mangle existing.

I never said high health is an intentional counter to mangle that people build for specifically. It's just a counter simply by its nature. You don't counter people with high HP with mangle You counter people with lower HP with it. So at the end of the day high health player remain at high health and low health players starts considering increasing their health.

You said high health setups are a counter against mangle which is not true. No one in eso history has said "Oh woops i'm mangled, gotta get more health my setup to counter that"

People are saying that in response to high damage metas, proc based builds gimping them, bomb builds, gankers and because high health rewards you for it.

It's weird to want to remove sources of a debuff just because of the logic, "well it will hurt the little guy" as if people are going out of their way to find a rare debuff like mangle just to debuff weak players. Most players aren't saying, "well I need to slot impulse to kill this person" and the only ones that do are ball group players, but ball groups are strong because of damage procs and healing, not because of mangle.

No one also in ESO history has said "I am slotting major expedition purely for chasing sorcs" however major expedition combined with sprint is a way to counter sorc mobility. Some things are just counters to other things by default without people using them specifically as direct counters.


There is many reasons why we are in a high health meta.


People are not going out of their way to find a rare debuff to hurt weak players. That debuff currently is extremly easily accesible so it passively hurts anyone who is not stacking higher health. You slot abilities like rending slashes to be effective against anyone but it simply hurts low HP targets more than high HP ones so it does the opposite to what it should. Impulse is also slotted to hurt anyone but the diference with impulse is that this ability is not as overloaded as rending with MDW is.

JerBearESO

I diagree, Rending Slashes, Ruinous Scythe shouldn't apply Minor Mangle

Rending needs the nerf though. Scythe should prolly get some compensation for the loss....