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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811

Vet pug trials day after arcanist nerf, lol

  • Galeriano
    Galeriano
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    Auldwulfe wrote: »
    Galeriano wrote: »
    subarctic wrote: »
    “Too fast increase of power creep can also ironically cause drop of group PvE population which we are actually seeing right now.”

    If vet trials were that easy, many more would have done PUGs in GF to get skins etc. GF in EU PC is almost empty daytime, seems like the game is dying in this regard.

    I have a relatively meta arcanist build, but since I’m mediocre I do at least 20K less damage than an elite player in ESO with the same set, depending on the content. And that’s with the most easy rotation in the game. In +1 content I’ll predictably get kicked. The majority of average PUG arcanists will also do poorly in +1 even when they have studied the mechanics more or less.

    Don’t complain about more wipes in PUGs after arcanist gets nerfed.

    There is plenty of easy group content in ESO like most of 4 man dungeons, normal trials etc and You don't see groups created through GF for it either. You can't reliably create groups for something if population in that specific area of the game is dying. Even joining random daily dungeon queue as tank lately requires You to sometimes wait like a minute or two to find a group when in the past it was always instant. One of the reasons for group PvE population dying is oversimplfication of combat.

    Problem with making everyone too strong is that in longer run it will backfire. If people are getting too strong and gameplay too easy than at some point game will start noticing rising population of 2 specific groups of players.

    One group is people that simply get bored with that state of the game so they either leave the game or no longer participate in group content. it's bad for the game in a multiple ways because very often these players are experienced raid leaders with talent and willingness to organise trials. Many people like that stopped to organise trials in last two/three years which caused many active guilds that were organising casual runs on a daily basis to die off.

    Second group is fresh players who thanks to oversimplification of the game now can get things faster and they need less attempts to get them. That means they will burn out and remove themselves from a list of potential group members faster, lowering overall retention of active group PvE players. And because they will need less attempts to get something they will meet less new people which in longer run means less interactions with others will be made which means less people will be filling friends list, guilds etc lowering chances to create a group.

    At the end of the day after some time game will start noticing visible drop in population of people organising and participating in group PvE content. Guilds will start dying, friends lists shrinking and number of player willing to do trials etc drop, making it paradoxically harder to finish a trial despite game getting simplier. This is why too much oversimplification of the game is not healthy for it in the long run and we are seeing it happening right now before our eyes.

    Missed the other reason people quit --- I have known people that quit for this reason ---
    They join a group and get an "elitist" who insists that if you haven't spent years dummy humping, while sitting on a bucket, as pausing to use a toilet is a sign of weakness...... and then remove one finger with twine, to show dedication, you aren't worthy to be in their beloved dungeon, and they will scream about how you need to be nerfed / blocked / ect from polluting their holy of holies.

    Auldwulfe

    "Elitist" factor and people's anxiety due to it is a standard variation in every MMO group content population and have nothing to do with what I was talking about. It's not like thing You are talking about started to happen recently. It was in the game since the beggining so it cannot be responsible that much for a noticable drop in the group content population we're seeing right now. If anything less people should be quitting group PvE right now due to mentioned factor since average player's DPS went up so more people is now meeting the standards set by raid leaders including those more demanding ones.
    Edited by Galeriano on February 19, 2024 12:48AM
  • subarctic
    subarctic
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    @Galeriano

    I wrote: “… you are the one asking ESO to nerf arcanist …”

    You wrote: “No i never asked for anything You are suggesting.”

    I wrote: “Ok, so you are saying that arcanist is OP but you are not suggesting that it should be nerfed? Nice, then we basically agree.”

    You wrote: “I would kindly ask You to read more carefully what I wrote in order to avoid confusion and misinterpretation. You are continously twisting what I was saying.”

    “I wrote in one of my previous comments to You, quote : "Unbalanced things require nerf to not overperform and kill other options in the procces"”

    I wrote: “Ok, so now you are saying that arcanist should be nerfed?”

    You wrote: “What do You mean that "now" I am saying this like I would suddenly change my narration or reveal my opinion out of nowhere?”

    Well, the confusion was caused by you answering ““No i never asked for anything You are suggesting” after I wrote: “ … you are the one asking ESO to nerf arcanist …”

    So, you want to nerf arcanist? Yes or no?
  • Galeriano
    Galeriano
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    subarctic wrote: »
    @Galeriano

    I wrote: “… you are the one asking ESO to nerf arcanist …”

    You wrote: “No i never asked for anything You are suggesting.”

    I wrote: “Ok, so you are saying that arcanist is OP but you are not suggesting that it should be nerfed? Nice, then we basically agree.”

    You wrote: “I would kindly ask You to read more carefully what I wrote in order to avoid confusion and misinterpretation. You are continously twisting what I was saying.”

    “I wrote in one of my previous comments to You, quote : "Unbalanced things require nerf to not overperform and kill other options in the procces"”

    I wrote: “Ok, so now you are saying that arcanist should be nerfed?”

    You wrote: “What do You mean that "now" I am saying this like I would suddenly change my narration or reveal my opinion out of nowhere?”

    Well, the confusion was caused by you answering ““No i never asked for anything You are suggesting” after I wrote: “ … you are the one asking ESO to nerf arcanist …”

    So, you want to nerf arcanist? Yes or no?

    Read full comments please. Answer is already there.
  • subarctic
    subarctic
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    People usually leave PUGs mainly because too many gamers get killed, not because their dps is so low that it takes 5 min longer to finish a boss fight. The shield of pragmatic fatecarver should therefore not be nerfed, especially since elite guilds don’t use this morph anyway. If ESO should nerf something, do it to exhausting fatecarver.
  • katanagirl1
    katanagirl1
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    subarctic wrote: »
    People usually leave PUGs mainly because too many gamers get killed, not because their dps is so low that it takes 5 min longer to finish a boss fight. The shield of pragmatic fatecarver should therefore not be nerfed, especially since elite guilds don’t use this morph anyway. If ESO should nerf something, do it to exhausting fatecarver.

    Disagree. Vet trials require dps to be fully invested in damage and not healing or shields.

    The pragmatic fatecarver also does not fit into a dps rotation as well because it consumes crux rather than the exhausting fatecarver, which generates crux, so it is the preferred morph.
    Khajiit Stamblade
    Dark Elf Magsorc
    Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
    Orc Stamplar PVP
    Breton Magsorc PVP

    PS5 NA

  • subarctic
    subarctic
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    @katanagirl1

    “Disagree. Vet trials require dps to be fully invested in damage and not healing or shields”

    I have played countless pugs. In almost all of them people leave the group after too many players have died, not because it takes longer to kill a boss.

    In pugs you never know if you get great healers, tanks and damage dealers, so survivability (shields etc) is key to preventing that people leave a suboptimal pug.

    When I see that a healer in a pug is not good, I change to using restoration staff backbar on my DD, which keeps the group going. Nobody complains that I’m a fake DD in those cases, and nobody leaves.

    In a guild one should use exhausting fatecarver ofc.
  • katanagirl1
    katanagirl1
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    subarctic wrote: »
    @katanagirl1

    “Disagree. Vet trials require dps to be fully invested in damage and not healing or shields”

    I have played countless pugs. In almost all of them people leave the group after too many players have died, not because it takes longer to kill a boss.

    In pugs you never know if you get great healers, tanks and damage dealers, so survivability (shields etc) is key to preventing that people leave a suboptimal pug.

    When I see that a healer in a pug is not good, I change to using restoration staff backbar on my DD, which keeps the group going. Nobody complains that I’m a fake DD in those cases, and nobody leaves.

    In a guild one should use exhausting fatecarver ofc.

    Ah, somehow I missed the part about the vet trial being a pug. I would absolutely never pug a vet trial.
    Khajiit Stamblade
    Dark Elf Magsorc
    Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
    Orc Stamplar PVP
    Breton Magsorc PVP

    PS5 NA

  • Galeriano
    Galeriano
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    subarctic wrote: »
    People usually leave PUGs mainly because too many gamers get killed, not because their dps is so low that it takes 5 min longer to finish a boss fight. The shield of pragmatic fatecarver should therefore not be nerfed, especially since elite guilds don’t use this morph anyway. If ESO should nerf something, do it to exhausting fatecarver.

    Disagree. Vet trials require dps to be fully invested in damage and not healing or shields.

    The pragmatic fatecarver also does not fit into a dps rotation as well because it consumes crux rather than the exhausting fatecarver, which generates crux, so it is the preferred morph.

    Passive defense is still nice to have on DDs especially in not so well organised trials. Only well organised and optimised groups can allow themselves to go full with damage and survive more just by killing everything faster.

    Both morphs of fatecarver consume crux. Pragmating fatecarver gives shield and makes beam chaper while exhaiusting fatecarver applies snare to enemies and lasts longer. When it comes to morphs where one consumes crux and other charges it, it's happening to tentacular dread and cephaliarch's flail.
    Edited by Galeriano on February 20, 2024 7:08AM
  • Galeriano
    Galeriano
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    subarctic wrote: »
    People usually leave PUGs mainly because too many gamers get killed, not because their dps is so low that it takes 5 min longer to finish a boss fight. The shield of pragmatic fatecarver should therefore not be nerfed, especially since elite guilds don’t use this morph anyway. If ESO should nerf something, do it to exhausting fatecarver.

    You can't keep things in overpowered state just because some people in PUG runs will live longer thanks to them. Learning to survive is part of the procces of getting better. Once again You want to punish people for getting better instead of enouraging them to get better.

    And when it comes to random PUG dungeons people are definietly leaving when boss fights take 5 minutes longer than they should due to heavily lacking DPS. Me and many people I know queue as fake tanks (full DD setup with taunt if needed) just because we know average DD in random dungeons have so low DPS than if we would queue as real tank than this dungeon would take ages since we are doing like 80-90% of group DPS as fake tanks. Sorry but nobody likes to sit 45 minutes in a random normal dungeon where 2 DDs are doing like 5-10k DPS together.
    Edited by Galeriano on February 20, 2024 7:22AM
  • subarctic
    subarctic
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    @Galeriano

    “Sorry but nobody likes to sit 45 minutes in a random normal dungeon where 2 DDs are doing like 5-10k DPS together.”

    I’m talking about vet trials and vet dungeons in GF where some people can even have 2000 cp and get killed without a good shield because they are talentless like myself. In those cases the damage is pretty high in any case, so killing a boss will just add maybe 5 min extra IF a pug manages to survive because of good survivability offered by pragmatic fatecarver.

    In those kind of pugs I’ve only experienced once that a group was disbanded because of low dps.
  • katanagirl1
    katanagirl1
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    ✭✭
    Galeriano wrote: »
    subarctic wrote: »
    People usually leave PUGs mainly because too many gamers get killed, not because their dps is so low that it takes 5 min longer to finish a boss fight. The shield of pragmatic fatecarver should therefore not be nerfed, especially since elite guilds don’t use this morph anyway. If ESO should nerf something, do it to exhausting fatecarver.

    Disagree. Vet trials require dps to be fully invested in damage and not healing or shields.

    The pragmatic fatecarver also does not fit into a dps rotation as well because it consumes crux rather than the exhausting fatecarver, which generates crux, so it is the preferred morph.

    Passive defense is still nice to have on DDs especially in not so well organised trials. Only well organised and optimised groups can allow themselves to go full with damage and survive more just by killing everything faster.

    Both morphs of fatecarver consume crux. Pragmating fatecarver gives shield and makes beam chaper while exhaiusting fatecarver applies snare to enemies and lasts longer. When it comes to morphs where one consumes crux and other charges it, it's happening to tentacular dread and cephaliarch's flail.

    Oh you’re right, I confused one skill for another. Sorry for the error.
    Khajiit Stamblade
    Dark Elf Magsorc
    Redguard Stamina Dragonknight
    Orc Stamplar PVP
    Breton Magsorc PVP

    PS5 NA

  • pklemming
    pklemming
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    Galeriano wrote: »
    subarctic wrote: »
    Get ready for complaints in pug chats and “ … left the group”.

    Arcanist is the most popular class in pug vet trials, so why nerf a class that people like playing?

    Those who claim that vet trials are too easy with arcanist, don’t start complaining in pug chats after ESO has given you what you wanted: a nerf that will make it even more difficult to create good pugs via GF.

    If something is most popualr it's usually an indicator it is unbalanced. Unbalanced things require nerf to not overperform and kill other options in the procces.

    What group finder? You mean that dead feature that nobody is using because group PvE is slowly dying?

    Yup, all we need in this game is classes people don't enjoy playing. A game that is fun? Unheard of !

    Off back to my vastly overpowered builds in Vampire Survivors. A game that knows exactly what people want, but costs a few pound.
    Edited by pklemming on February 21, 2024 2:47PM
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