Vet pug trials day after arcanist nerf, lol

subarctic · February 12

Get ready for complaints in pug chats and “ … left the group”.

Arcanist is the most popular class in pug vet trials, so why nerf a class that people like playing?

Those who claim that vet trials are too easy with arcanist, don’t start complaining in pug chats after ESO has given you what you wanted: a nerf that will make it even more difficult to create good pugs via GF.

Soarora · February 12

Arcanist barely got nerfed. They’re still top DPS.

subarctic · February 12

The damage shield nerf of pragmatic fatecarver is what really matters. Mass casualty events incoming

Fun if you like resurrecting people in vet pug trials.

Soarora · February 12

subarctic wrote: »

The damage shield nerf of pragmatic fatecarver is what really matters. Mass casualty events incoming Fun if you like resurrecting people in vet pug trials.

If people were relying on the shield to not die, they probably weren’t good pugs to begin with. As long as people do mechanics (mostly don’t stand in bad) and the healers are maybe half decent it should be fine. If it’s that much of a concern, echoing vigor on DPS.

subarctic · February 12

“they probably weren’t good pugs to begin with”

That’s my whole point. Finding good pugs in EU PC will take even longer now, with more wipes. I play every day, daytime and evening. Waiting 15 to 180 min for some vet pug content when using GF in EU PC is boring, feels meaningless. It will become worse when they nerf arcanist.

RetPing · February 12

Hard dungeons/trials should be about mechanic knowledge and the skill to do them and not about burning all with inflated DPS.

I don't understand why someone would want to do Vet trials when they are so easy you can just mindlessy pug them?
I remember when people wanted to be challenged by a game, all I see now are people that just want things handed to them.

Galeriano · February 13

subarctic wrote: »

Get ready for complaints in pug chats and “ … left the group”.

Arcanist is the most popular class in pug vet trials, so why nerf a class that people like playing?

Those who claim that vet trials are too easy with arcanist, don’t start complaining in pug chats after ESO has given you what you wanted: a nerf that will make it even more difficult to create good pugs via GF.

If something is most popualr it's usually an indicator it is unbalanced. Unbalanced things require nerf to not overperform and kill other options in the procces.

What group finder? You mean that dead feature that nobody is using because group PvE is slowly dying?

KS_Amt38 · February 13

Oh yeah vet pug trials as the new benchmark for game devs.

MidniteOwl1913 · February 13

Galeriano wrote: »

subarctic wrote: »

Get ready for complaints in pug chats and “ … left the group”.

Arcanist is the most popular class in pug vet trials, so why nerf a class that people like playing?

Those who claim that vet trials are too easy with arcanist, don’t start complaining in pug chats after ESO has given you what you wanted: a nerf that will make it even more difficult to create good pugs via GF.

If something is most popualr it's usually an indicator it is unbalanced. Unbalanced things require nerf to not overperform and kill other options in the procces.

What group finder? You mean that dead feature that nobody is using because group PvE is slowly dying?

If people like it it must be bad... That's a weird kind of logic. Won't people just move on to the next thing and then that will be bad, and, well it seems like loop ending with something like U35?

Galeriano · February 16

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

subarctic wrote: »

Get ready for complaints in pug chats and “ … left the group”.

Arcanist is the most popular class in pug vet trials, so why nerf a class that people like playing?

Those who claim that vet trials are too easy with arcanist, don’t start complaining in pug chats after ESO has given you what you wanted: a nerf that will make it even more difficult to create good pugs via GF.

If something is most popualr it's usually an indicator it is unbalanced. Unbalanced things require nerf to not overperform and kill other options in the procces.

What group finder? You mean that dead feature that nobody is using because group PvE is slowly dying?

If people like it it must be bad... That's a weird kind of logic. Won't people just move on to the next thing and then that will be bad, and, well it seems like loop ending with something like U35?

Is it really that wierd? I would say it's a part of human nature to like things that are generally bad and unhealthy in longer run.

The difference between other "things" and current arcanist situation is that we never had a situation where one class had higher population in ESO logs than all the other classes combined. One thing is being slightly stronger and the other is being greatly stronger while also extremly easier. Too fast increase of power creep is actually one of the reasons why things like U35 happen and arcanist created a big leap in power creep. Too fast increase of power creep can also ironically cause drop of group PvE population which we are actually seeing right now. Making players much stronger and content much easier is nice for a moment but will always end badly.

subarctic · February 16

“Too fast increase of power creep can also ironically cause drop of group PvE population which we are actually seeing right now.”

If vet trials were that easy, many more would have done PUGs in GF to get skins etc. GF in EU PC is almost empty daytime, seems like the game is dying in this regard.

I have a relatively meta arcanist build, but since I’m mediocre I do at least 20K less damage than an elite player in ESO with the same set, depending on the content. And that’s with the most easy rotation in the game. In +1 content I’ll predictably get kicked. The majority of average PUG arcanists will also do poorly in +1 even when they have studied the mechanics more or less.

Don’t complain about more wipes in PUGs after arcanist gets nerfed.

Quethrosar · February 16

who runs trials as an arc with the shield morph?
can't top dps with that.

manukartofanu · February 16

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If people like it it must be bad... That's a weird kind of logic. Won't people just move on to the next thing and then that will be bad, and, well it seems like loop ending with something like U35?

You have no idea if people like Arcanist or they just have to play it because it is OP. Arcanist itself is a requirement for many groups. When it is nerfed to be the same power as other classes, we'll see if people like Arcanist as a class or they are restricted to play Arcanist because of its power.

Quethrosar · February 16

arcanist is fun because its so good AOE and Single target damage.
Arcanist AOE and Single Target is what other classes need to have in their toolkit.
For example sorcerer has great single target damage but AOE is junk.
If they made AOE damage as strong as arcanist it would be pretty much equal.

don't nerf ARC, give other the classes the missing abilities to be on par.

Galeriano · February 16

subarctic wrote: »

“Too fast increase of power creep can also ironically cause drop of group PvE population which we are actually seeing right now.”

If vet trials were that easy, many more would have done PUGs in GF to get skins etc. GF in EU PC is almost empty daytime, seems like the game is dying in this regard.

I have a relatively meta arcanist build, but since I’m mediocre I do at least 20K less damage than an elite player in ESO with the same set, depending on the content. And that’s with the most easy rotation in the game. In +1 content I’ll predictably get kicked. The majority of average PUG arcanists will also do poorly in +1 even when they have studied the mechanics more or less.

Don’t complain about more wipes in PUGs after arcanist gets nerfed.

There is plenty of easy group content in ESO like most of 4 man dungeons, normal trials etc and You don't see groups created through GF for it either. You can't reliably create groups for something if population in that specific area of the game is dying. Even joining random daily dungeon queue as tank lately requires You to sometimes wait like a minute or two to find a group when in the past it was always instant. One of the reasons for group PvE population dying is oversimplfication of combat.

Problem with making everyone too strong is that in longer run it will backfire. If people are getting too strong and gameplay too easy than at some point game will start noticing rising population of 2 specific groups of players.

One group is people that simply get bored with that state of the game so they either leave the game or no longer participate in group content. it's bad for the game in a multiple ways because very often these players are experienced raid leaders with talent and willingness to organise trials. Many people like that stopped to organise trials in last two/three years which caused many active guilds that were organising casual runs on a daily basis to die off.

Second group is fresh players who thanks to oversimplification of the game now can get things faster and they need less attempts to get them. That means they will burn out and remove themselves from a list of potential group members faster, lowering overall retention of active group PvE players. And because they will need less attempts to get something they will meet less new people which in longer run means less interactions with others will be made which means less people will be filling friends list, guilds etc lowering chances to create a group.

At the end of the day after some time game will start noticing visible drop in population of people organising and participating in group PvE content. Guilds will start dying, friends lists shrinking and number of player willing to do trials etc drop, making it paradoxically harder to finish a trial despite game getting simplier. This is why too much oversimplification of the game is not healthy for it in the long run and we are seeing it happening right now before our eyes.

subarctic · February 16

If elite guilds don’t like arcanist, they can just ban it when doing trials etc. Problem solved.

Many veterans have naturally left ESO after 10 years because there is not enough content, only a small DLC once every quarter and a larger map in the summer which no-lifers can finish in 1-2 weeks.

Another solution: let arcanist be like mythic ring of pale order: fatecarver gets nerfed if you enter a trial with a guild classified as hardcore in Guild Finder.

Btw, a bit amusing that we in ESO now have Populist Unskilled Group vs elite guildies. Devs should have seen this coming and planned for it ahead, properly.

The best solution is that if a HM DLC is released when the elite has 2000-3000 cp, then average dudes and gals can do this content when they have 6000 cp = 4-5 years later when the elite has already done that HM content ad nauseum.

Galeriano · February 17

subarctic wrote: »

If elite guilds don’t like arcanist, they can just ban it when doing trials etc. Problem solved.

Many veterans have naturally left ESO after 10 years because there is not enough content, only a small DLC once every quarter and a larger map in the summer which no-lifers can finish in 1-2 weeks.

Another solution: let arcanist be like mythic ring of pale order: fatecarver gets nerfed if you enter a trial with a guild classified as hardcore in Guild Finder.

Btw, a bit amusing that we in ESO now have Populist Unskilled Group vs elite guildies. Devs should have seen this coming and planned for it ahead, properly.

The best solution is that if a HM DLC is released when the elite has 2000-3000 cp, then average dudes and gals can do this content when they have 6000 cp = 4-5 years later when the elite has already done that HM content ad nauseum.

It's like saying that if elite athlets don't like diet and training than it should be banned for those who want to participate in the olympics. Makes zero sense doesn't it? Elite guilds are one of the least caring for game balance. They will be just using whatever is the strongest. Currently it's arcanist and this is why You see arcanists dominating all leaderboards because majority of people in elite guilds plays arcanist. Hard to be elite if You don't play the strongest setup.

Veterans leaving the game due to lack of content is a thing that is happening all the time and is a standard variation in the retention of the playerbase. Other factors had to occur for current state of noticable diminishing numbers of players in group content. Factors I mentioned.

Now You're just overthinking it. You want to nerf something for better players just because they're better. You literally want to punish people for giving time and effort to be good. Also from technical standpoint that idea have no way to be implemented. Not every group that does endgame effectively is made out of members of the same guild. Also lots of game end guilds don't announce themselves in a guild finder so Your idea is doomed to fail.

Every MMO game since day one have a neverending battle of opinions between casual and endgame players. The only thing that devloper can do is keeping the game somwhere in between the needs of both groups. Currently they went too far into casualisation side and group PvE population hurst because of that.

You don't need to have lots of CPs to be a elite player. There is plenty of people who do trifectas and are under 2k CPs. CAp for CP is 3,6k. Average dude and gals will often never be able to complete DLC HMs. HM stands for hard mode for a reason. It's specifically designed for people who are above the average. Average dudes and gals have normal and veteran modes designed for them.

Pixiepumpkin · February 17

Pro-Tip. It's not arcanists, it's stamina arcanist.

PapaTankers · February 17

You are looking for a problem where there isn't any. We have been doing PUG trials with success for years before arcanists came along.

subarctic · February 18

@Galeriano said: “You want to nerf something for better players just because they're better”

No, you are the one asking ESO to nerf arcanist so that elite players can have a challenge while leaving average gamers in the dust.

Some guilds ban Zaan monster set when doing dps on target dummies. If someone uses arcanist and is high on leaderboards, dismiss it as a fake score, because arcanist is green cheese, a class for talentless people like me, so no merit and no honor when an elite gamer uses a class designed for “handicapped” players.

sarahthes · February 18

subarctic wrote: »

If elite guilds don’t like arcanist, they can just ban it when doing trials etc. Problem solved.

Many veterans have naturally left ESO after 10 years because there is not enough content, only a small DLC once every quarter and a larger map in the summer which no-lifers can finish in 1-2 weeks.

Another solution: let arcanist be like mythic ring of pale order: fatecarver gets nerfed if you enter a trial with a guild classified as hardcore in Guild Finder.

Btw, a bit amusing that we in ESO now have Populist Unskilled Group vs elite guildies. Devs should have seen this coming and planned for it ahead, properly.

The best solution is that if a HM DLC is released when the elite has 2000-3000 cp, then average dudes and gals can do this content when they have 6000 cp = 4-5 years later when the elite has already done that HM content ad nauseum.

We... we don't hate arcanists? We love them...

Nobody in endgame uses the shield morph anyway, so this literally doesn't impact the upper tiers of the raiding community. And lower tiers of the raiding community should become more comfortable without their training wheels. They'll still do obscene damage, they just have to step out of red a little more.

Veinblood1965 · February 18

subarctic wrote: »

Get ready for complaints in pug chats and “ … left the group”.

Arcanist is the most popular class in pug vet trials, so why nerf a class that people like playing?

Those who claim that vet trials are too easy with arcanist, don’t start complaining in pug chats after ESO has given you what you wanted: a nerf that will make it even more difficult to create good pugs via GF.

Honestly I've played many games throughout the years and I've never seen one that changes class balances as much as this one. Not saying i don't enjoy the game but it isn't something we all don't know the answer to. I new class, OP. then a little bit before the next expansion tone it down a little. Rinse and repeat. I just work around it but it's a slap in the face, why change something people enjoy?

Pixiepumpkin · February 18

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

subarctic wrote: »

Get ready for complaints in pug chats and “ … left the group”.

Arcanist is the most popular class in pug vet trials, so why nerf a class that people like playing?

Those who claim that vet trials are too easy with arcanist, don’t start complaining in pug chats after ESO has given you what you wanted: a nerf that will make it even more difficult to create good pugs via GF.

Honestly I've played many games throughout the years and I've never seen one that changes class balances as much as this one. Not saying i don't enjoy the game but it isn't something we all don't know the answer to. I new class, OP. then a little bit before the next expansion tone it down a little. Rinse and repeat. I just work around it but it's a slap in the face, why change something people enjoy?

Why? Because they want to sell you the next thing.

subarctic · February 18

@sarahthes

“And lower tiers of the raiding community should become more comfortable without their training wheels”

PUGs are not the raiding community. In GF or random vet dungeons you can find all kinds of people, some with fake achievements even. Pragmatic fatecarver is then a nice aid or training wheel that prevents rez overload and people leaving a PUG.

Galeriano · February 18

subarctic wrote: »

@Galeriano said: “You want to nerf something for better players just because they're better”

No, you are the one asking ESO to nerf arcanist so that elite players can have a challenge while leaving average gamers in the dust.

Some guilds ban Zaan monster set when doing dps on target dummies. If someone uses arcanist and is high on leaderboards, dismiss it as a fake score, because arcanist is green cheese, a class for talentless people like me, so no merit and no honor when an elite gamer uses a class designed for “handicapped” players.

No i never asked for anything You are suggesting. I simply stated that arcanist is overperforming in general and that in longer terms it's unhealthy for the game.

subarctic · February 18

@Galeriano

Ok, so you are saying that arcanist is OP but you are not suggesting that it should be nerfed? Nice, then we basically agree.

Rkindaleft · February 18

ZOS shouldn't dictate balance because of what unorganized random PUG groups are doing.

Arcanist beam WAS overperforming in basically all content. There's no way around to say it wasn't.

Also the nerf barely affects playing it. The small DPS nerf on beam is counteracted somewhat by the increased DPS to status effects. The shield you get while beaming is still large enough even with a ~15% shield nerf. If people are dying because of that then they can just stop standing in silly.

Galeriano · February 18

subarctic wrote: »

@Galeriano

Ok, so you are saying that arcanist is OP but you are not suggesting that it should be nerfed? Nice, then we basically agree.

I would kindly ask You to read more carefully what I wrote in order to avoid confusion and misinterpretation. You are continously twisting what I was saying.

I wrote in one of my previous comments to You, quote : "Unbalanced things require nerf to not overperform and kill other options in the procces" so You had answer to Your question provided yet for some reason You came up with completly opposite conclusions than what I said.

Auldwulfe · February 19

Galeriano wrote: »

subarctic wrote: »

“Too fast increase of power creep can also ironically cause drop of group PvE population which we are actually seeing right now.”

If vet trials were that easy, many more would have done PUGs in GF to get skins etc. GF in EU PC is almost empty daytime, seems like the game is dying in this regard.

I have a relatively meta arcanist build, but since I’m mediocre I do at least 20K less damage than an elite player in ESO with the same set, depending on the content. And that’s with the most easy rotation in the game. In +1 content I’ll predictably get kicked. The majority of average PUG arcanists will also do poorly in +1 even when they have studied the mechanics more or less.

Don’t complain about more wipes in PUGs after arcanist gets nerfed.

There is plenty of easy group content in ESO like most of 4 man dungeons, normal trials etc and You don't see groups created through GF for it either. You can't reliably create groups for something if population in that specific area of the game is dying. Even joining random daily dungeon queue as tank lately requires You to sometimes wait like a minute or two to find a group when in the past it was always instant. One of the reasons for group PvE population dying is oversimplfication of combat.

Problem with making everyone too strong is that in longer run it will backfire. If people are getting too strong and gameplay too easy than at some point game will start noticing rising population of 2 specific groups of players.

One group is people that simply get bored with that state of the game so they either leave the game or no longer participate in group content. it's bad for the game in a multiple ways because very often these players are experienced raid leaders with talent and willingness to organise trials. Many people like that stopped to organise trials in last two/three years which caused many active guilds that were organising casual runs on a daily basis to die off.

Second group is fresh players who thanks to oversimplification of the game now can get things faster and they need less attempts to get them. That means they will burn out and remove themselves from a list of potential group members faster, lowering overall retention of active group PvE players. And because they will need less attempts to get something they will meet less new people which in longer run means less interactions with others will be made which means less people will be filling friends list, guilds etc lowering chances to create a group.

At the end of the day after some time game will start noticing visible drop in population of people organising and participating in group PvE content. Guilds will start dying, friends lists shrinking and number of player willing to do trials etc drop, making it paradoxically harder to finish a trial despite game getting simplier. This is why too much oversimplification of the game is not healthy for it in the long run and we are seeing it happening right now before our eyes.

Missed the other reason people quit --- I have known people that quit for this reason ---
They join a group and get an "elitist" who insists that if you haven't spent years dummy humping, while sitting on a bucket, as pausing to use a toilet is a sign of weakness...... and then remove one finger with twine, to show dedication, you aren't worthy to be in their beloved dungeon, and they will scream about how you need to be nerfed / blocked / ect from polluting their holy of holies.

Auldwulfe

subarctic · February 19

@Galeriano

“I wrote in one of my previous comments to You, quote : "Unbalanced things require nerf to not overperform …”

Ok, so now you are saying that arcanist should be nerfed?

Galeriano · February 19

subarctic wrote: »

@Galeriano

“I wrote in one of my previous comments to You, quote : "Unbalanced things require nerf to not overperform …”

Ok, so now you are saying that arcanist should be nerfed?

What do You mean that "now" I am saying this like I would suddenly change my narration or reveal my opinion out of nowhere? The quote You're using is from the first comment I made in this thread.