Update 41 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts

Feedback for Tutorial change

Meredy
Meredy
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Tutorial Updates
We’ve updated the post-quest tutorial portal room so new accounts will be initially limited to the portals to Stros M'Kai, Bleakrock Isle, and Khenarthi's Roost, depending on their alliance. Upon using any of the aforementioned portals, you will gain the ability to use portals to any additional zones available to your account as well as the ability to skip the tutorial on subsequent characters.

I think this change introduced in the latest natch potes is overall not a good change.

Even though the starter islands are kinda the most chronological locations to start with and have the easiest mobs to beat as a new player, I think it gives a false impression of what ESO is nowadays.

ESO's chapters have by far exceeded what the starter islands have to offer and I'm afraid the difference in quality will dissuade new players from exploring the game even further. For some new players it's hard to find a wayshrine and to understand the map-ui, for example. They may never know about all the fancy new content ESO has produced over the years, or they may not have a clue on how to get to it.

I think if the purpose of this change is to not let newer players be too overwhelmed with choice, I think the Direnni lady from the Tutorial could be of help to them with even more additional dialogue before you select a portal. Additionally there could also be a popup on screen to let players know what they're getting into and that the portal they choose doesn't really matter too much as they can just teleport around the map.

Also for RP related reasons, I think it would be the nicest to let new players go anywhere they want from the start.
  • Twohothardware
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    The first experience new players are going to have in these starter areas on console is having every resource node stolen from them by a naked mob of bots.

    These zones are 90% bots on console.
  • valenwood_vegan
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    Hmm... yeah not quite sure what this change is trying to accomplish. Many new players already have trouble finding the "main" quest, and now they'll be doing a starter island... going to town and picking up the main quest... escaping from coldharbor and being sent back to a starter island. Sounds confusing to me. I wonder if forcing brand new players to start the main quest after the tutorial would make more sense?

    Or maybe the portal room could involve some dialogue and guidance about what the player wants to do next, and portals will become available based on that choice... like a conversation with choices such as "I want to start my alliance story" (starter island); "I want to visit a capital city" (alliance capitals); "I want an adventure in distant lands" (DLC areas); "I want to start the main story".

    Maybe they could also be provided with a way to get back to the portal room. Like a special "new player recall scroll" or something. Just so that if they get lost in the game and don't know what to do next, they can return to the portal room and get some guidance again. Idk.

    A common theme among new players I've encountered seems to be that they are looking for the game to provide a little more guidance on what they should be doing. It's overwhelming and confusing.

    So also, when I was a new player, the experience was pretty confusing in its own way back then. I went through the Morrowind tutorial and following that, for like the first week I was playing... I thought the entire game was Vvardenfell. I finally discovered the base game by accident (picked up a quest that made me travel elsewhere) and I had to start over to try and do things in some semblance of the proper order and make some sense out of the game.

    So also maybe at the very least... something should be added to the tutorial about wayshrines / how to use them / the fact that you can travel to a lot of places beyond the starter islands. I dunno. It's hard to think like a new player now, but you definitely don't want them thinking that the starter islands are representative of what the game has to offer.
    Edited by valenwood_vegan on February 6, 2024 7:35PM
  • Meredy
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    Hmm... yeah not quite sure what this change is trying to accomplish. Many new players already have trouble finding the "main" quest, and now they'll be doing a starter island... going to town and picking up the main quest... escaping from coldharbor and being sent back to a starter island. Sounds confusing to me. I wonder if forcing brand new players to start the main quest after the tutorial would make more sense?

    Or maybe the portal room could involve some dialogue and guidance about what the player wants to do next, and portals will become available based on that choice... like a conversation with choices such as "I want to start my alliance story" (starter island); "I want to visit a capital city" (alliance capitals); "I want an adventure in distant lands" (DLC areas).

    Maybe they could also be provided with a way to get back to the portal room. Like a special "new player recall scroll" or something. Just so that if they get lost in the game and don't know what to do next, they can return to the portal room and get some guidance again. Idk.

    A common theme among new players I've encountered seems to be that they are looking for the game to provide a little more guidance on what they should be doing. It's overwhelming and confusing.

    So also, when I was a new player, the experience was pretty confusing too. I went through the Morrowind tutorial and following that, for like the first week I was playing... I thought the entire game was Vvardenfell. I finally discovered the base game by accident (picked up a quest that made me travel elsewhere) and I had to start over to try and do things in some semblance of the proper order and make some sense out of the game.

    So also maybe at the very least... something should be added to the tutorial about wayshrines / how to use them / the fact that you can travel to a lot of places beyond the starter islands. I dunno. It's hard to think like a new player now, but you definitely don't want them thinking that the starter islands are representative of what the game has to offer.

    When I introduced my friend to the game I told him as little as possible so he could experience and discover everything for himself. Eventually I had to tell him that Vvardenfell wasn't the only map as well lmaoo... seems like a recurring issue.


    I think this thread could give the devs some insight on what newer players find confusing and have trouble with
  • valenwood_vegan
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    Meredy wrote: »
    I think this thread could give the devs some insight on what newer players find confusing and have trouble with

    Yeah for sure, I hope they look at the feedback. It's encouraging that at least they've been making efforts to improve and de-clutter the new player experience recently.
  • Darkstorne
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    Especially problematic if they aren't planning to redo these starter islands. Not just because of the more dated visuals compared to the latest Chapters, but also because these islands were designed around launch-mindset ESO, where players were funnelled from point to point, and the overwhelming discourse around the game's opening acts was "...Meh, this doesn't feel like I'm playing an Elder Scrolls game."

    I do have a healthy dose of nostalgia for these islands now, and I do like to revisit them from time to time, but I can also still vivdly recall my disinterest with Stros M'Kai during the beta period, and how it gave me a bad first impression of what the game would (eventually...) go on to become.

    I always thought the portal room was a decent solution to the problem, allowing players to choose where to begin their adventure after the short tutorial, delivering the sort of freedom players adore this series for. It's not like many of us ever see that portal room with our alts for it to matter after the first go around, because we usually skip the tutorial and get placed directly in the latest Chapter's zone.
  • ghastley
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    My question us “how do we test this?” Nobody has a new account to find out if that aspect works.
  • fizl101
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    ghastley wrote: »
    My question us “how do we test this?” Nobody has a new account to find out if that aspect works.

    I think you could do it by creating a new character, it doesn't need to be a new account
    Soupy twist
  • ADarklore
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    Personally, they should have the player teleport to the starting alliance CITY, then have the 'hooded figure' pop up- that way they can start the MSQ and not have to start at the ISLAND, then go to mainland, then sent back to starter island. All of that will just confuse new players even more.
    Edited by ADarklore on February 6, 2024 5:41PM
    CP: 1880 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
  • ghastley
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    One aspect that was discussed in another thread I can’t find is that a player who is new to the game needs certain aspects of the starter zones. There should be no World Bosses or dolmens etc. to blunder into, more resources to learn crafting, and if I could find the thread, there were more brought up.

    A fresh alt doesn’t need the n00b treatment, so the skip tutorial, and start anywhere options apply. Since the game knows the difference, why not behave that way?

    Starting the Main Quest is another choice that an uninformed player would have problems in making. For some players, the MQ is needed to make sense of the game, but others would want to play the chapter that enticed them to buy it. There is no easy way for the game itself to know. Perhaps leaving that choice to a point after playing a starter zone, which can be regarded as an extension of the tutorial process, is appropriate. Does the Vestige concept need explanation before that choice is given?
  • FabresFour
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    Honestly, I think it's good on one hand... But the execution could be better.

    I think the choice of new players being able to select between multiple expansions is too complex, and a problem. Most players are confused, not understanding anything about the game. They don't understand who the Vestige is until they are further into the main story.

    There are huge inconsistency problems like this.

    I think there should be a main portal written "Main Story" where you start at Soul Shriven in Coldharbour. This way, you give the player the necessary context about the game and still make him stop on the alliance's starting island.

    In my personal experience, as someone who has introduced thousands of new players to ESO, choosing any map at the beginning is somewhat harmful... it's too complex and strange. But if you're going to limit it, there has to be a viable alternative to make the questing make sense.
    @FabresFour - 1970 CP
    Director and creator of the unofficial translation of The Elder Scrolls Online into BR-Portuguese.
  • FabresFour
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    ghastley wrote: »
    One aspect that was discussed in another thread I can’t find is that a player who is new to the game needs certain aspects of the starter zones. There should be no World Bosses or dolmens etc. to blunder into, more resources to learn crafting, and if I could find the thread, there were more brought up.

    A fresh alt doesn’t need the n00b treatment, so the skip tutorial, and start anywhere options apply. Since the game knows the difference, why not behave that way?

    Starting the Main Quest is another choice that an uninformed player would have problems in making. For some players, the MQ is needed to make sense of the game, but others would want to play the chapter that enticed them to buy it. There is no easy way for the game itself to know. Perhaps leaving that choice to a point after playing a starter zone, which can be regarded as an extension of the tutorial process, is appropriate. Does the Vestige concept need explanation before that choice is given?

    If we were to think about lore and narrative... Well, yes:

    We will only end up on the initial islands because of the Main Quest - More specifically, if we start the main quest, we are thrown onto one of the initial islands. Even though we've already finished it. Hell, we can only complete a few of the starting islands quests BECAUSE we're the Vestige. For example, in Khernathi's Roost, the Maormer villain who possesses bodies, he just doesn't enter our bodies because of the whole story with Coldharbour, you know? Taking this away, the connection to the main quest, leaves the other quests in the original game incoherent.

    Furthermore, the entire concept of the character dying and coming back to life is based on him being a Vestige. The entire gameplay aspect of ESO is based on this.

    That's why I always thought it was weird that they changed the game's tutorial.

    I mean, technically there should only be 1 start for ESO. Anything else makes the whole story confusing.

    (remember, the first quest of the main quest, Soul Shriven in Coldharbour, was the first tutorial in the game. The quest is written as a tutorial)
    Edited by FabresFour on February 6, 2024 6:25PM
    @FabresFour - 1970 CP
    Director and creator of the unofficial translation of The Elder Scrolls Online into BR-Portuguese.
  • Jestir
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    Honestly I think the best way to start this game would be starting with the original start AND THEN going to balfiera and having the free choice of portal with some sort of indication nudgung them towards the correct starting island for their alliance or newest expansion owned but still giving them free choice on where to go

    While skipping works how it does now but you don't have to go get your self killed to do the original tutorial
  • tomofhyrule
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    I can see the idea of restricting the tutorial for new players, but I don't think that that helps narratively as much as it should.

    Yes, restricting the tutorial to the Alliance zone will give new players the background for the Alliance war. But the alliance war is not the main quest. Sending the players to the starter islands could only lead to more confusion when the new players do the starter island questline, get to the starter city, and then are thrust into the Main Quest with the Hidden Figure... which then deposits them right back on the starter island, this time with no more quests to do.

    This is doubly confusing for Daggerfall Covenant characters, as the Betnikh storyline specifically references the fact that the player has no soul. Furthermore, a DC player who does the Stros and Betnikh stories and gets sent to Daggerfall, and then decides to do the Daggerfall quest hub before searching for the Hidden Figure will be very confused as there is no vector quest pointing you to Deleyn's Mill. This DC newbie will end up back on Stros with no quests at all, and no idea that they need to go to some random quest hub east of Daggerfall to continue the story.

    What would proceed best would be for new players to be taken from the Balfiera tutorial directly into Coldharbour, skipping the Hidden Figure and ending up right in the Wailing Prison cell. The Hidden Figure starting the first MQ could still exist for players who are not skipping the tutorial or going through a different portal on a second playthrough.

    Norianwe could give them a line to the extent of "Now, come through this portal and see how it all begins..." or something to that effect. They could get the standard Alliance war video, ending with the video we normally see when the character is sacrificed, and then they wake up in the cell and Lyris comes to save them. That way, they're deposited properly into the Alliance starter zone, get the Prophet dialogue as intended, and then they can correctly (and following the narrative) get to the starter city via the starter island wihtout ever having to backtrack.
  • ADarklore
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    I can see the idea of restricting the tutorial for new players, but I don't think that that helps narratively as much as it should.

    Yes, restricting the tutorial to the Alliance zone will give new players the background for the Alliance war. But the alliance war is not the main quest. Sending the players to the starter islands could only lead to more confusion when the new players do the starter island questline, get to the starter city, and then are thrust into the Main Quest with the Hidden Figure... which then deposits them right back on the starter island, this time with no more quests to do.

    This is doubly confusing for Daggerfall Covenant characters, as the Betnikh storyline specifically references the fact that the player has no soul. Furthermore, a DC player who does the Stros and Betnikh stories and gets sent to Daggerfall, and then decides to do the Daggerfall quest hub before searching for the Hidden Figure will be very confused as there is no vector quest pointing you to Deleyn's Mill. This DC newbie will end up back on Stros with no quests at all, and no idea that they need to go to some random quest hub east of Daggerfall to continue the story.

    What would proceed best would be for new players to be taken from the Balfiera tutorial directly into Coldharbour, skipping the Hidden Figure and ending up right in the Wailing Prison cell. The Hidden Figure starting the first MQ could still exist for players who are not skipping the tutorial or going through a different portal on a second playthrough.

    Norianwe could give them a line to the extent of "Now, come through this portal and see how it all begins..." or something to that effect. They could get the standard Alliance war video, ending with the video we normally see when the character is sacrificed, and then they wake up in the cell and Lyris comes to save them. That way, they're deposited properly into the Alliance starter zone, get the Prophet dialogue as intended, and then they can correctly (and following the narrative) get to the starter city via the starter island wihtout ever having to backtrack.

    I agree. They should just go back to putting the new players (who don't skip) directly into the Wailing Prison, while those who did skip, can still interact with the "hooded figure". The WP quest is short and upon exiting Coldharbour, they could choose to begin questing on the starter island *OR* jump to mainland and continue from there.
    CP: 1880 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
  • FayJolyn
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    Personally I feel starting in the Wailing Prison like the game did way back in the day would be more logical. I personally really dislike the generic tutorial quest with the portals. I miss the old tutorials from earlier chapters too, I wish those could come back.
    Zha'ishii - Kahjiit nightblade (main) PC-EU
  • mbeetley_ESO
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    Echoing the comments of Jestir above (and bits of others as well):

    Bring back the Coldharbour tutorial.

    The quest was created as a tutorial in the first place, so the structure is already there. You have dialogue already recorded that makes it a tutorial, so no problem there either. And it STARTS THE MAIN STORY OF THE GAME. There are so many things in the rest of the game that refer to the soulless Vestige, it just makes sense to start there, even if you don't make people address that story from the start.

    Then you want to give people options? As Jestir said (and it's an idea I had some time ago as well), you go from Coldharbour to Balfiera. Maybe your arrival is the reason that the portals get activated? Or maybe you show up a bit prior to the portal room and you open the portals by using your recently-acquired skyshard energy from Coldharbour? Regardless, you can then give people freedom to do what they want.

    The Prophet's speech about "I arrived in X location, so eventually you'll need to come find me" dialogue would play when the character first arrives in Balfiera. Might need a bit of editing to make sense, but I doubt you would need to record anything new. It already included some vagaries to be reused for all factions.

    And when you skip the tutorial? You start off with the Prophet's speech in Balfiera, just like you used to start with the Prophet's speech on the starter island.

    I will say, I do agree with the change to limit at least new accounts only to their faction's starter island (alongside all DLC locations? not clear from the patch notes). You picked a faction, so play as a member of that faction. I get that the restriction ends up being meaningless because with One Tamriel, people can travel anywhere, but still... For new players at least a suggestion of a direction might be helpful and less confusing.
  • SeaGtGruff
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    In my opinion, the most logical place for the portals to take new characters would be (1) the first zone of that character's chosen alliance, (2) the previous chapter's zone, and (3) the newest chapter's zone. (1) Should drop the character by the NPC who gets them started on the Main Quest. (2) Would be the newest "chapter zone" which is available for Crowns. (3) Would be the newest "chapter zone" which must be purchased outside of the in-game Crown Store.

    Once in any of those three locations, the character is free to proceed as desired.
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
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