MDW nerf is also a Necro nerf

xylena_lazarow · February 5

Necro not only lost the higher damage Blastbones morph, but its best melee PvP spammable in MDW Twin Slashes. Worst class gets worse.

MDW nerf doesn't eliminate proc pressure builds, just further reduces build diversity, while causing unnecessary collateral damage.

FoJul · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Necro not only lost the higher damage Blastbones morph, but its best melee PvP spammable in MDW Twin Slashes. Worst class gets worse.

MDW nerf doesn't eliminate proc pressure builds, just further reduces build diversity, while causing unnecessary collateral damage.

Delete Master Dual wield completely!

Wouldn't say build diversity when you can just throw on Master dw and a tank set and still do more dmg than a full dps spec. Everyone is doing it, MDW is meta. Can't say your reducing build diversity, when your taking away what most builds are crutching on.

xylena_lazarow · February 6

FoJul wrote: »

Delete Master Dual wield completely! Wouldn't say build diversity when you can just throw on Master dw and a tank set and still do more dmg than a full dps spec. Everyone is doing it, MDW is meta. Can't say your reducing build diversity, when your taking away what most builds are crutching on.

That's not how those builds work. There is no build that does that, or you have a very strange idea of full dps spec.

IncultaWolf · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Necro not only lost the higher damage Blastbones morph, but its best melee PvP spammable in MDW Twin Slashes. Worst class gets worse.

MDW nerf doesn't eliminate proc pressure builds, just further reduces build diversity, while causing unnecessary collateral damage.

Everyone is just going to swap masters dw to asylum staff next patch, calling it now, especially with the status effect buffs

xylena_lazarow · February 6

Dekrypted wrote: »

I've seen arcanists in 7 heavy and 40k hp crutch on it to kill people.

Killing squishies doesn't measure anything.

StarOfElyon · February 6

Masters DW + Vate staff is the 8th class in ESO.

Turtle_Bot · February 6

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Masters DW + Vate staff is the 8th class in ESO.

I thought it was the ONLY class in ESO anymore.

xylena_lazarow · February 6

Dekrypted wrote: »

If you're just going to move the goal post to try and keep Master DW the way it is on live, I'm not sure what to tell ya. I think the nerfs going through. Like Inculta said, everyone's just going to run Asylum Destro next patch and do basically the exact same thing with a slightly higher mag pool instead of a slightly higher stam pool.

Not moving the goalposts, 40k hp heavy is a stalemate build, group target focus at best.

If yall thought MDW was bad, wait until all the pressure builds are doing the same thing to you but from 41m range. Pressure builds aren't going away, there's just fewer tools and variants available now (RIP melee), and the gap between the haves and have-nots will widen if the new meta is locked behind a 12-person PvE trial.

ItsNotLiving · February 6

MDW has been problematic for a very long time it’s about time it left. Slashes were never supposed to be spammables, the vAS Staff Force Shock is supposed to be a spammable that’s the difference. I do think the vAS Staff has to change since the status buffs though.

olsborg · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Necro not only lost the higher damage Blastbones morph, but its best melee PvP spammable in MDW Twin Slashes. Worst class gets worse.

MDW nerf doesn't eliminate proc pressure builds, just further reduces build diversity, while causing unnecessary collateral damage.

I disagree, master dw was so overused by the majority of builds in the procc campaigns that it itself was limiting build diversity. Please nerf more proccsets imo.

katorga · February 6

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Masters DW + Vate staff is the 8th class in ESO.

Classes that are forced to clutch on MDW/Vateshran because they are not viable without it, get worse.

DK, NB, Warden get stronger when MDW gets nerfed because they did not need to use it in the first place.

NuarBlack · February 6

katorga wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Masters DW + Vate staff is the 8th class in ESO.

Classes that are forced to clutch on MDW/Vateshran because they are not viable without it, get worse.

DK, NB, Warden get stronger when MDW gets nerfed because they did not need to use it in the first place.

Technically true, but the problem is those classes are bad and need fixed, not that MDW shouldn't be nerfed.

xylena_lazarow · February 6

olsborg wrote: »

I disagree, master dw was so overused by the majority of builds in the procc campaigns that it itself was limiting build diversity. Please nerf more proccsets imo.

MDW wasn't choking anything out. There's nothing to replace it for melee pressure damage. Nothing. The meta simply narrows, I'm not changing to caster playstyle, I'll figure out how to adapt, MDW nerf still dumb and unnecessary.

Meanwhile, pure skill stat set Rallying Cry over there choking out 99% of available back bar sets.

StarOfElyon · February 6

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Masters DW + Vate staff is the 8th class in ESO.

I thought it was the ONLY class in ESO anymore.

I don't play that one though xD

xylena_lazarow · February 6

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I don't play that one though xD

Blame ZOS for the u35 pressure skill nerfs. That's what narrowed the meta.

Necrotech_Master · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

If you're just going to move the goal post to try and keep Master DW the way it is on live, I'm not sure what to tell ya. I think the nerfs going through. Like Inculta said, everyone's just going to run Asylum Destro next patch and do basically the exact same thing with a slightly higher mag pool instead of a slightly higher stam pool.

Not moving the goalposts, 40k hp heavy is a stalemate build, group target focus at best.

If yall thought MDW was bad, wait until all the pressure builds are doing the same thing to you but from 41m range. Pressure builds aren't going away, there's just fewer tools and variants available now (RIP melee), and the gap between the haves and have-nots will widen if the new meta is locked behind a 12-person PvE trial.

asylum +0 on normal is one of the easiest trials in the game and one of the only trials thats theoretically possible to solo lol

getting the perfected asylum staff is a completely different ballgame though lol

Aldoss · February 6

Let's not kid ourselves by thinking that MDW was somehow bis on only necro. EVERYONE can run MDW and pretty much every other class will be more deadly with it than necro because they have toolkits that actually make sense.

The fact that tanks of any class are slapping this sucker on and combo'ing it with way of fire and you can have rending and way of fire ticking off on you passively from 3 or more players, for 20 seconds, who all had 40k+ hp is proof that this crutch needs to go.

I'm 100% in agreement that many people will just switch to asylum, but at least that weapon requires the user to actively be targeting you and constantly engaged with you. MDW+WoF has truly been the most snoozer, lackluster meta and it's been around for too long. Asylum is very much not the same.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 6

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Slashes were never supposed to be spammables

Doubt so. MWD effectively turned Slashes into a spam. Why else would they allocate part of it's "power budget" to the two inital hits? Mind that this set got released when the first dot tick ticked instantly (correct me if I'm wrong on this).

Seems more like it was (at least part of) the idea of this ability altering set.

xylena_lazarow · February 6

Aldoss wrote: »

The fact that tanks of any class are slapping this sucker on and combo'ing it with way of fire and you can have rending and way of fire ticking off on you passively from 3 or more players, for 20 seconds, who all had 40k+ hp is proof that this crutch needs to go.

You're demanding nerfs because you got focused by 3 players running group target focus dps builds?

They're still going to do that to you. You're still going to die. And next patch it'll be from 41m away.

NuarBlack · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

They're still going to do that to you. You're still going to die. And next patch it'll be from 41m away.

This logic is baffling, if Asylum was so good it would already be happening. If it happens next patch it will be because status procs got buffed not because MDW got nerfed.

The obvious and logical solution isn't to not nerf MDW but to take a look at Asylum Staff.

xylena_lazarow · February 6

NuarBlack wrote: »

The obvious and logical solution isn't to not nerf MDW but to take a look at Asylum Staff.

What is the goal here? To nerf everything until nobody dies? To delete pressure builds?

If "procs" were really the problem, Ravenwatch would be by far the most populated campaign, instead it's a meme.

What are you going to say when it's 3 pure skill ranged stat sorcs focusing you dead from 41m away? Better meta?

Twohothardware · February 6

Procs have definitely been part of the problem but they're not the whole problem. They need to put the focus back on having higher stamina/magicka pools again so the defacto loadout isn't Tri stat enchants on all armor, a defensive set back bar, and all or most of your attribute points put into health. They need to increase the value in choosing to run more glass cannon. Right now players just build all tank and zerg players down by ult dumping and proc sets.

Urzigurumash · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

The obvious and logical solution isn't to not nerf MDW but to take a look at Asylum Staff.

What is the goal here? To nerf everything until nobody dies? To delete pressure builds?

If "procs" were really the problem, Ravenwatch would be by far the most populated campaign, instead it's a meme.

What are you going to say when it's 3 pure skill ranged stat sorcs focusing you dead from 41m away? Better meta?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622887/conditional-damage-procs-deserve-more-aggressive-scaling

Urzigurumash · February 6

I agree, procs are one of the only ways to cut through the absurdly strong healing. Healing AND Damage should be REDUCED BY 90%

But until then, the 1 lone Necro using MDW in a sea of 1000 Sorcs and Dens is hardly sufficient justification for it to be one of 4 proc sets people run - while 100s languish on account of their WEAK , UNAGGRESSIVE SCALING.

xylena_lazarow · February 6

Twohothardware wrote: »

Right now players just build all tank and zerg players down by ult dumping and proc sets.

Pretty big difference between MDW and things like Dark Convergence or Rushing Agony that groups actually abuse, procs that literally play the game for you by moving the enemy to a convenient location.

MDW died for the sins of much, much, much worse procs.

MDW builds were also sorta keeping ranged pressure builds in line, have fun in a ranged target focus meta.

IAmIcehouse · February 6

MDW is run on almost anyone who's not a nightblade or not running an AOE bomb group. That right there is a good sign if should be seeing a nerf.

MDW is one of the few sets in the game that isn't scaling with damage on live, so we see people stack full tankyness and run MDW and their dmg stays remarkable. We should expect the sacrifice for speccing tanky is a loss of damage. It's not like the MDW nerf is that wild either.

For the record, the tooltip on tanky builds is around 900 on the PTS. That's a 600 DPS nerf on the DoT. Halfed in cyro, and then after resistances, you're seeing what? 100-200 DPS lower every two seconds? I wouldn't be worried.

For the record, I've been playing with DoT Cro on the PTS and I'm still using MDW and it's still pretty nutty pressure.

xylena_lazarow · February 6

IAmIcehouse wrote: »

For the record, I've been playing with DoT Cro on the PTS and I'm still using MDW and it's still pretty nutty pressure.

That's good to hear, appreciate the update.

Aldoss · February 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

You're demanding nerfs because you got focused by 3 players running group target focus dps builds?

Focused? Who said anything about focused?

3 people wearing the most utilized, overperforming 2 sets in the game looked at you once and casted one skill and then ran away with the zerg, but for 20 seconds you have to manage 4-6k+ of dots every 2 sec on you.

If that's what you're defending then yeah, I'm against that. It's lazy game play. It's boring.

Say what you want about Asylum, at least they have to ACTIVELY target you and choose to waste multiple gcd's on you for a sustained period of time.

MDW is a crutch. I know it's hard to give up the crutch, but I'm sure you'll manage.

J18696 · February 7

Both sides of this are technically true from a pvp perspective it will be a necro nerf but it was a crutch and yes asylum staff will probably be the new crutch with the status changes we should be looking at fixing the damn class itself in the grand scheme of it all instead of worrying about sets

Side note that it will also be a buff for anyone running above 7600 weapon/spell damage assuming you can make up the lost stats in other areas

NuarBlack · February 7

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

The obvious and logical solution isn't to not nerf MDW but to take a look at Asylum Staff.

What is the goal here? To nerf everything until nobody dies? To delete pressure builds?

If "procs" were really the problem, Ravenwatch would be by far the most populated campaign, instead it's a meme.

What are you going to say when it's 3 pure skill ranged stat sorcs focusing you dead from 41m away? Better meta?

Procs are not the problem for sure. I was there during the actual proc meta of Viper and Red mountain. But, again you are conflating issues. Healing and TTK are completely busted in the game. Stacking proc sets won't fix that. It hasn't fixed it as that has been ZoS's theory is they can balance via sets for the last two plus years and it has failed miserably. They have to address the root game mechanics at the heart of the tank and heal meta.

MDW being an outlier is a completely separate issue. If MDW was one of 10+ proc set options I'd agree. Saying it's a binary between it and Asylum isn't the argument you think it is.

xylena_lazarow · February 7

NuarBlack wrote: »

Stacking proc sets won't fix that. It hasn't fixed it as that has been ZoS's theory is they can balance via sets for the last two plus years and it has failed miserably. They have to address the root game mechanics at the heart of the tank and heal meta.

Is your problem with the existence of pressure builds, or the way ZOS designs the sets intended to be used by pressure builds? Either way, I don't see how nerfing melee pressure damage is helping the tank heal meta problem.