Why doesn't Tarnished Nightmare have a proc delay like most Proc Damage sets?

Avran_Sylt · February 5

I'm not complaining, it'll pair nicely with Ashen Grip for an Onslaught into Merciless gank with triple-line crit chance making the Merciless (and all procs) more likely to crit.

But don't most damage proc sets usually have a delay for their damage?

Sleep724 · February 6

Gotta sell the dlc to those nightblade mains.

RetPing · February 6

Another tool for DEVblades.
As if they needed more.

MashmalloMan · February 6

If you've tested it, you'll see it has pretty terrible scaling. Average build will get a 4-6k tooltip before battlespirtit. I imagine there is much better sets than this for burst with similar cooldowns or much less of a cooldown for higher pressure.

Rushing Agony for example is also an aoe physical damage proc on a 8s cooldown, it has a delay, but it has a 8-10k tooltip with pulling. Much rather use that than this.

The point of the set seems more focused on spreading minor breach which is not super hard to come by in the first place.

Avran_Sylt · February 6

MashmalloMan wrote: »

If you've tested it, you'll see it has pretty terrible scaling. Average build will get a 4-6k tooltip before battlespirtit. I imagine there is much better sets than this for burst with similar cooldowns or much less of a cooldown for higher pressure.

Rushing Agony for example is also an aoe physical damage proc on a 8s cooldown, it has a delay, but it has a 8-10k tooltip with pulling. Much rather use that than this.

The point of the set seems more focused on spreading minor breach which is not super hard to come by in the first place.

Fair. Though I come from an angle where I'm going for an all in tankbuster: flexibility of any ability means I can use Onslaught to stun from Sneak-+Cloak and then have 100% resistance pen applied to all of the proc sets triggering from it.

Set like Rushing Agony is specific. Good for ganking soft targets, but not res capped high impen targets.

I'm not against a set like this, given I do think that that kind of glass cannon style should be possible (high single-target penetration damage requiring specific resources like an ult at the expense of being close with the counter being grouped up for followup punishment as it is single-target), but as a returning player I remember there was a lot of focus about not getting ganked and having huge sustain when I last played.

React · February 6

I don't know why they insist on continuing to add proc damaging sets anyways. It's a shame they've decided it's better to allow sets to deal damage for players, rather than focusing on boosting player stats and requiring them to actually do inputs in order to deal damage.

CameraBeardThePirate · February 6

React wrote: »

I don't know why they insist on continuing to add proc damaging sets anyways. It's a shame they've decided it's better to allow sets to deal damage for players, rather than focusing on boosting player stats and requiring them to actually do inputs in order to deal damage.

Because inputs are hard, didn't you read their reasoning for deleting Blastbones? Casting an ability every 3 seconds is obviously too much work. Just let a set play the game for you!

Avran_Sylt · February 6

React wrote: »

I don't know why they insist on continuing to add proc damaging sets anyways. It's a shame they've decided it's better to allow sets to deal damage for players, rather than focusing on boosting player stats and requiring them to actually do inputs in order to deal damage.

To be frank, proc sets as "stat boost sets" would be things that just grant very high Spell/Weapon damage for a short duration given a certain condition with a scaling cooldown and has the additional bugger of having to then be balanced against all the various skill scalings in the game.

Limited in design and thematic approach.

This one would probably be something like: Your Direct Damage Area of Effect Abilities gain an additional 2000 Weapon/Spell Damage once every 8s and apply Sundered.

That's too general and kind of boring.

React · February 6

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

React wrote: »

I don't know why they insist on continuing to add proc damaging sets anyways. It's a shame they've decided it's better to allow sets to deal damage for players, rather than focusing on boosting player stats and requiring them to actually do inputs in order to deal damage.

To be frank, proc sets as "stat boost sets" would be things that just grant very high Spell/Weapon damage for a short duration given a certain condition with a scaling cooldown and has the additional bugger of having to then be balanced against all the various skill scalings in the game.

Limited in design and thematic approach.

This one would probably be something like: Your Direct Damage Area of Effect Abilities gain an additional 2000 Weapon/Spell Damage once every 8s and apply Sundered.

That's too general and kind of boring.

I mean, that sounds far more interesting than "when you deal damage, you also deal X additional damage". What you've just described could allow you to supercharge a dawbreaker, blastbones, or deep fissure. Questionable whether it'd be used, but to me it would at least require the player's input and timing to take advantage of.

It's just poor game design to massively inflate damage by adding flat procs to everything somebody does. They aren't utilizing skill or knowledge to deal that additional damage, they're just equipping sets and doing the same thing they did before, but with unreasonably more reward for their effort.

It's like when we had the Caluurion gankers. They equipped a set and could suddenly kill you in one GCD from stealth before you could break free *most of the time*, whereas with the titanborn gankers of the same era you'd usually be able to break free and dodge the execute/arterial they needed to land to make up for not having that free 7-10k damage proc. The titanborn gank was undoubtedly the more "skillful" version, as it required both low HP and a follow up ability, but the Caluurion one was more effective for less effort. Just poor balance and game design to have procs dealing the most effective burst/pressure damage for less effort than stat based builds utilizing high APM and perfect rotations.

Avran_Sylt · February 6

React wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

React wrote: »

I don't know why they insist on continuing to add proc damaging sets anyways. It's a shame they've decided it's better to allow sets to deal damage for players, rather than focusing on boosting player stats and requiring them to actually do inputs in order to deal damage.

To be frank, proc sets as "stat boost sets" would be things that just grant very high Spell/Weapon damage for a short duration given a certain condition with a scaling cooldown and has the additional bugger of having to then be balanced against all the various skill scalings in the game.

Limited in design and thematic approach.

This one would probably be something like: Your Direct Damage Area of Effect Abilities gain an additional 2000 Weapon/Spell Damage once every 8s and apply Sundered.

That's too general and kind of boring.

I mean, that sounds far more interesting than "when you deal damage, you also deal X additional damage". What you've just described could allow you to supercharge a dawbreaker, blastbones, or deep fissure. Questionable whether it'd be used, but to me it would at least require the player's input and timing to take advantage of.

It's just poor game design to massively inflate damage by adding flat procs to everything somebody does. They aren't utilizing skill or knowledge to deal that additional damage, they're just equipping sets and doing the same thing they did before, but with unreasonably more reward for their effort.

It's like when we had the Caluurion gankers. They equipped a set and could suddenly kill you in one GCD from stealth before you could break free *most of the time*, whereas with the titanborn gankers of the same era you'd usually be able to break free and dodge the execute/arterial they needed to land to make up for not having that free 7-10k damage proc. The titanborn gank was undoubtedly the more "skillful" version, as it required both low HP and a follow up ability, but the Caluurion one was more effective for less effort. Just poor balance and game design to have procs dealing the most effective burst/pressure damage for less effort than stat based builds utilizing high APM and perfect rotations.

And then the set needs to be balanced around the ability that can utilize its effectiveness to the fullest extent. People will min-max it to that point, and then it gets nerfed according to its optimal use case and becomes a relatively poor choice for any other ability. And it effectively becomes a pseudo "Ability" set. (Ironically case in point with my concerns around this set).

Proc sets can have their numbers tweaked from the start can be used in tandem with any ability, and are typically mitigated against ganks with a delay.

...I think the "followup" requirement for "skillfull" ganking has some issues. I do agree that gank loadouts should have risks and setup scaling with their one-shot threshold (said setup being where the ganker can get spotted/ganked themselves), the bugger is that any followup against a "well-rounded" player usually has them healing back 50% of their health as they start blocking, one can only hope they roll dodge so you can use a catch if you got them low enough. So followup builds typically prey on unequipped players who don't properly utilize their break free/block resolving before your GCD ends (which is setless, even supported by the slippery champion passive). Though I agree that old Caluurion was way over-tuned for how much damage it did with so little settup. (I built a gank build with that, 20K tooltip just on caluurion, geez).

I like the concept of Balorgh: time spent generating ultimate keeping you out of the fight longer for more damage, but ironically even at 500 ult it doesn't give enough damage/pen if you're min-maxing for one-shot potential against tough targets compared to the 100% res strip of Onslaught with a proc set. (And anyway, Balorgh has the problem of being safer because it can be used with ranged abilities/ults).