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Siphoning Attacks Feedback

lnigo
lnigo
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In the hands of an experienced player one of the most powerful, but costly builds in the game is rendered (basically) cost free with the changes to Siphoning Attacks. Bash builds are builds capable of considerably high damage output and prove to be extremely effective towards most players. These builds are so powerful, notable bash players are strategically kill on sight, because they can put down myself and anyone of my goons very quickly. While not as effective on tankier classes like arcanist, templar, or perhaps warden, it has been noted by infamous bash players that bashing down sorcerers, nightblades, and necromancers are essentially free or easy kills. This style of gameplay is hit until you can't hit anymore, then strategically retreat to recover resources (as it should be).

With the changes to siphoning strikes, the cost efficiency is too much improved. Even without a healer, a decent nightblade can use the tools in their kit to put down a minimum of 1 adversary, reset the fight (shade, cloak) and continue engaging with a full pool of stamina. With a healer, or even a small-sized group with shared healing, or dare I say zerging, the possibilities are endless.

In this video, I complete 113 bashes while only consuming one potion to restore stamina. I don't have a single champion point anywhere, and I never casted Siphoning Strikes to restore stamina. The stamina return is strictly from Siphoning Attacks passively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1FgRgvCO94

I'm curious to hear what @SkaraMinoc thinks about this. I personally feel bash builds are great considering how effective they are, but only if stamina maintenance is challenging enough.

a8b8tfeef6fz.png
Edited by lnigo on February 1, 2024 7:27AM
  • Rebiludo
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    J18696 wrote: »
    Not to mention perma block builds all you need is a constant stream of healing and you can just sit around spamming siphon since it has no cast time it won't drop block and you can refresh your stamina pool indefinitely long as you have the incoming healing slap on cutting defense for the passive bonuses to consistently proc

    Permabloc is already possible with spell symmetry & frost staff (or Stormweaver's Cavort)
  • J18696
    J18696
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    Rebiludo wrote: »
    J18696 wrote: »
    Not to mention perma block builds all you need is a constant stream of healing and you can just sit around spamming siphon since it has no cast time it won't drop block and you can refresh your stamina pool indefinitely long as you have the incoming healing slap on cutting defense for the passive bonuses to consistently proc

    Permabloc is already possible with spell symmetry & frost staff (or Stormweaver's Cavort)

    sure you could but this will not require you to debuff your own healing/shields or have any set investment at all
    PC NA Server
    @J18696
    Characters
    Pridē - Dragonknight
    Vanıty - Arcanist
  • SkaraMinoc
    SkaraMinoc
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    The change to Siphoning Strikes doesn't seem like it would be enough to sustain the cost of repeatedly bashing and using Power Slam. Other classes have similar sustain buffs such as Warden Netch and Imperial Templar's cost reduction passives but they still have sustain issues. Bash -> Bash -> Power Slam (repeat) is 2500 stamina per second so you run out quickly. The reason Sorc is so good is because Energy Overload and Dark Deal is enough to go full damage or damage+armor brawler and not have any sustain issues at all.

    Most classes have self-healing issues (low wd/sd) with bash builds in PvP as well.

    You really only have 4 options.

    Sorcerer (Hardened Ward, Streak+Dark Deal)
    Arcanist (Impervious Ward, Abyssal Sea)
    Warden (Wings+Polar Wind weave sprinting w/ Miat Tick Tracker)
    Nightblade (Cloak+Heal)

    Templar, Necro, Dragonknight all eventually die from low self-healing and no escape.

    Siphoning Strikes will help Bashblades in PvP. But I don't think it will make them overpowered.

    Edited by SkaraMinoc on February 1, 2024 12:35PM
    PC NA
  • MashmalloMan
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    The weirdest part is the closest skills to it don't even come close.

    Betty Netch doesn't cost resources, but costs a GCD. It gets 4416 stamina over 25s which should be 26 ticks at roughly 170 each second... This doesn't provide 1250 heals per second, a measly 1 purge every 5s and the most common buff, major brutality doesn't begin to balance it out in comparison. NB gets major prophecy/savagery passively, no buff management.

    Channeled Focus, also 25s duration, costs 1k magicka, instant cast, 1 GCD. Gives back 242 magicka a second, with the cost, it's about 204 magicka a second. Same thing for the stam morph when you do the math, about 204 stamina a second. Both have the most common armor buff, which again, NB gets for free passively for dealing damage with their spammable. It can heal, worse than Siphoning Strikes, but better when in the rune. Equal on that front at least.

    Dark Deal and Dark Conversion are harder to compare because of the 1 second cast time which is easily punishable and infinitely worse than all instant cast skills.. the original benefit was to get instant resources with the counter being you could interrupt it. NB gets instant resources, with no cast time, just a health cost they can negate.

    Dark Deal costs 2700 magicka, gives back 3600 stamina and 240 stamina a second over 10s. Dark Conversion costs 3240 stamina, gives back 4500 magicka and 120 magicka a second over 20s.Both don't have heal over times, they get 8-10k burst hp, however, again that is in counter to the fact that you spend 1 second cast time and can't block cast it.

    I mean you start to see a pattern here.. these skills give back about 170-200 of your main resource back a second, but you need to actively manage this buff to get the resources in the first place, coupled with free healing. Siphoning Strikes is just passive and in the long run will give better resource return because the only thing that would force it to stop is if you don't have at least 1 dot on an enemy, many of which last 20-30 seconds now making it close to impossible.

    ALL of this doesn't even focus on the fact that Siphoning Strikes gives back your main AND off resource for double the value of any other sustain skill in this list.

    Here is how I would balance it:
    • Keep the passive effect, it's cool, just not balanced right now.
    • Reduce the overall value to better line up with the above sustain skills, but take into account the skill is passive 99% of the time and based on any damage dealt. Reduce the return from 200 to 150.
    • Make sustain dependent on your highest resource, with the off resource getting cut in half. Eg. 150 stamina/s + 75 magicka/s.
    • Reduce the upfront return a little bit and adopt the above mechanic for scaling. Siphoning Attack = On cast, 2200 stamina + 1100 magicka. For Leeching, same rule, 1600 stamina + 800 magicka.

    Thats my 2cents. Idk. It really can't be overstated how valuable it is to have a skill that is passive 100% of the time, on either bar, with the only requirement to cast it be when you actually want to use it.

    Every other class with sustain skills has to CONSTANTLY manage these or they get nothing back. Don't even get me started on how annoying it is to manage Dark Deals 10 second duration or I lose 240 stamina/s, minor force, and minor berserk. It's insane. I would give up so much of that to have it be passive or at minimum, 20s + and instant, easily.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on February 1, 2024 12:51PM
    PC Beta - 1900+ CP

    Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
    Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit


    Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit
  • DrNukenstein
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    It heals off dots, it's a generous heal per second. It really is too overloaded right now, yes I did try it on PTS.

    -The heal should only proc off direct damage, or break stealth when it heals off a dot. Just two dots, and you will passively get the heal every second.

    -There should be a short healing taken/done penalty for the active effect. that's an existing precedent for these types of skills

    -The stacking cost reduction for leeching doesn't come close to the value that siphoning gives with it's resource return. As it stands right now, an NB could spam offering, resolving vigor and siphoning attacks forever while holding block and spamming crouch.

    -It's okay for it to require weaving. The best skill still requires weaving.

    Please nerf it responsibly before it hits live, and add Major Sorcery/Brutality.

  • Vaqual
    Vaqual
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    I don't think it is that much out of proportion. The current version is just greatly favouring ranged weapons. You can time AW around your weaving, even if you miss gcds, but you can not make up for the sustain/healing lost on siphoning strikes. The skill can be hit or miss, as you can lose a considerable percentage of ticks while stunned or immobilized, or when being kited by faster players. These are all things ranged players don't have to deal with in the first place, ot at least not as much, so they do not need an additional advantage while using the classes main resource recovery skill.
    I think this is a good change.
  • lnigo
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    SkaraMinoc wrote: »
    The change to Siphoning Strikes doesn't seem like it would be enough to sustain the cost of repeatedly bashing and using Power Slam.

    I am determined to have you reconsider.

    SkaraMinoc wrote: »
    Bash -> Bash -> Power Slam (repeat) is 2500 stamina per second so you run out quickly. The reason Sorc is so good is because Energy Overload and Dark Deal is enough to go full damage or damage+armor brawler and not have any sustain issues at all.

    On my scuffed build, bash costs 297 stamina and Power Slam costs 2349 stamina. A complete Power Slam with 2 bash weaves costs 2943 stamina. I get 200 stamina return per rotation, which nets a total of 2743 stamina cost.

    A single cast of Siphoning Attacks (morphed) will return 2600 stamina, which nearly makes up for an entire rotation. I may lose just over 4k health, but it is easily over-healed.

    In realistic terms, to maximize DPS, a decent player will spam the Power Slam bash weave rotation until their stamina pool is perhaps hovering around 50%. At that point, said player can begin to rotate a Siphoning Attacks bash weave (a net of 2600 - 594 = 2006 stamina) with a Power Slam bash weave (together, both rotations net 2006 - 2743 = -737 stamina).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lukd5oNCd8A

    Of course, this is a DPS loss, but it will allow the player to (essentially) endlessly bash players down. Now, a solo player may find it challenging to manage their health and stamina sustain. But when it comes down to small-group play or simply running around with pugs, the effectiveness of a bash build is increased (I think we can all agree here) exponentially. But I digress.

    SkaraMinoc wrote: »
    Bash -> Bash -> Power Slam (repeat)
    Most classes have self-healing issues (low wd/sd) with bash builds in PvP as well.

    As far as Nightblade healing is concerned, it has a few heals that don't scale off weapon/spell damage. The Siphoning Strikes heal is flat based (I'm pretty sure) and can crit, although I wouldn't say it's equivalent to a Warden's Vines, and Dark Cloak scales off health and heals for a ton when standing still and under the effects of minor mending from healthy offering.

    To say the least, it's not in the best spot for self-healing on a bash build, but it could be worse (Necromancer).
    Edited by lnigo on February 1, 2024 6:33PM
  • SkaraMinoc
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    lnigo wrote: »
    SkaraMinoc wrote: »
    The change to Siphoning Strikes doesn't seem like it would be enough to sustain the cost of repeatedly bashing and using Power Slam.

    I am determined to have you reconsider.

    I'm open to trying it when I get the time to fix PTS addons. I can't get into my bank without crashing right now 🤣
    PC NA
  • SkaraMinoc
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    Siphoning Attacks is now Dark Deal and Dark Conversion combined. Resolving Vigor offsets most of the damage and you can cast Siphoning Attacks from stealth which is ridiculous coming from a Sorcerer background.

    uAMYUfA.gif

    This means you can use double damage sets and the Shadow mundus. You couldn't do this before on Bashblade.

    Edited by SkaraMinoc on February 1, 2024 11:20PM
    PC NA
  • SkaraMinoc
    SkaraMinoc
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    I'm getting similar Vamp Dummy parses on the PTS for Bashblade and Sorc Bash. The damage is good.
    PC NA
  • SkaraMinoc
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    As it stands right now, an NB could spam offering, resolving vigor and siphoning attacks forever while holding block and spamming crouch.

    Nightblade permablock could be interesting.
    PC NA
  • J18696
    J18696
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    SkaraMinoc wrote: »
    As it stands right now, an NB could spam offering, resolving vigor and siphoning attacks forever while holding block and spamming crouch.

    Nightblade permablock could be interesting.

    I mean we have seen permablock before but should it be this easily accessible I dont think it should siphon is really loaded atm
    PC NA Server
    @J18696
    Characters
    Pridē - Dragonknight
    Vanıty - Arcanist
  • DrNukenstein
    DrNukenstein
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    SkaraMinoc wrote: »

    Nightblade permablock could be interesting.

    Maybe, but not like this. This would be way too easy. Even compared to how DKs did it before they nerfed it.
  • TX12001rwb17_ESO
    TX12001rwb17_ESO
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    If that sounds OP shouldn't the blame be on the Bash Build themselves and not the NB skill.
  • Turtle_Bot
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    No, because it is exclusively what the NB skill is enabling that is what is making it OP. Bash builds are super niche outside of what that specific skill is going to enable.
  • Sluggy
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    Here's a crazy idea for how we could balance this. Maybe, stick with me here now, maybe we could have two morph, one for mag and one for stam - I know! I know it's all hybrid now but stick with me here. And then you could cast whichever moph you have and when the effect end you get a huge chunk of that resource back. Perhaps to sweeten the deal you could make it so that the longer the skill lasts the more resource you get back and then just give the skill a low initial cost. Any takers? Thoughts? Ideas? Discuss.
  • J18696
    J18696
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    Can we acknowledge the fact this is just a sorc dark deal but passively always working and has no cast time trades the resource cost for health to gain both stats like kinda stupid loaded
    PC NA Server
    @J18696
    Characters
    Pridē - Dragonknight
    Vanıty - Arcanist
  • gvgisdi
    gvgisdi
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    Remember old siphoning strikes? I think they had it right to begin with
  • IncultaWolf
    IncultaWolf
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    This new rework is blatantly overtuned, but I hope they don't nerf it, because I want to abuse it in pvp
  • Jammy420
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    Honestly, after reading the patch notes, this game, I do not even really recognize it anymore. Game just rewards laziness, and punishes skill at this point.
  • Rebiludo
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    Jammy420 wrote: »
    Honestly, after reading the patch notes, this game, I do not even really recognize it anymore. Game just rewards laziness, and punishes skill at this point.

    bwxwc4350icr.jpg

    Funny 😅
  • DrNukenstein
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    Sluggy wrote: »
    Here's a crazy idea for how we could balance this. Maybe, stick with me here now, maybe we could have two morph, one for mag and one for stam - I know! I know it's all hybrid now but stick with me here. And then you could cast whichever moph you have and when the effect end you get a huge chunk of that resource back. Perhaps to sweeten the deal you could make it so that the longer the skill lasts the more resource you get back and then just give the skill a low initial cost. Any takers? Thoughts? Ideas? Discuss.

    What a balanced, and effective idea for a skill. It's not just that it's sustain. It's a virtual extension on your pool of choice, which is unique. Things that are unique enforce class identity, which is a good thing.
  • Vaqual
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    Ok here a slightly more detailed post than my previous one:

    With reave the current version already gives the same amount of main resource + 100 of the other. It also grants more healing (20% or so) . The pay off after 20s is basically paid for upon skill activation and you get roughly 3000 net resource, free of additional cost and fully backbarable.

    The current version "rewards" high weaving efficiency, which is an absolute no brainer in PvE, but drastically easier for ranged weapons in PvP. You can basically not be outranged by "melee movement" and you are much less prone be impaired by CC. It is not impossible to LA decently in melee, but this is something that also depends on your enemy and your build, while the only thing ranged weapons have to fear is LOS (which screws melee without high movespeed too). This isn't a "skill issue", it is just a clear bias.

    You do not only lose DPS or frequency of burst opportunities as in the case of AW if your LA rate is low with Siphoning Strikes, but you actively lose % value for each activation of the skill (paid for with a GCD and 1000 bux). There is no reason why the classes main sustain tool should be favoring a weapon type.

    The new version is comfortable to use, comparable in value and if you want to get resources back you pay with enough HP to put the resource gain into perspective (except you weave with one morph, same as before). Losing the HP under battlespirit and healing back up with a burst heal will offer a small cost advantage, but you pay for it with 2 gcds, so why the hell wouldn't there be an advantage.

    And in the end you still need dots or direct damage to hit something on cd every second, which is not even guaranteed with all stickies outside of procs having a 2s rate. Is your enemy chilling in your aoe dot? Granted, brainless spammable spammers will benefit from that, but who dies to these people.

    It will also make it possible to actually use channels without throwing your siphoning gains out of the window.
    Reave will be gone. So of course that sustain should be going somewhere.

    Do people who are shocked by the values of the rework even know what the live version does?
    Are you aware that skills should do something when they are slotted and/or used?
    Edited by Vaqual on February 7, 2024 11:48PM
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