Prince(ss)Ithelia. A tad confused 🤔

S0Z0H · January 19

So the Prince Of Paths is a SHE. Maybe this is part of the mystery of this character. Maybe it's a genius yet cryptic tribute to the late great musician that gave us Purple Rain ( considering that musician rocked high heels at times)
I would of thought Ithelia was a male , not a female. Yet, this is a deadra, and deities have been known to be, shall I say enigmatic in their um, well you what I mean.
Perhaps I'm overthinking it. This just really stuck out to me. I'm a tad confused

VoidCommander · January 19

Daedric Princes are always called Prince, regardless of their presented gender. Meridia has always been shown as a feminine appearance, and has always been referred to as a daedric prince.

Syldras · January 19

Daedric Princes have no gender, they're more or less formless and can swap their appearance anytime. Some appear male most of the time, some female, some change their appearance regularly or look in a way that that makes it hard to define anyway (or could you tell by appearance if a bunch of eyes and tentacles is male or female?).

S0Z0H · January 19

VoidCommander wrote: »

Daedric Princes are always called Prince, regardless of their presented gender. Meridia has always been shown as a feminine appearance, and has always been referred to as a daedric prince.

This is true? I thought I was fimiliar with this type of thing, I read the lore book on deadra in ESO. Maybe I should of googled daedric lore and titles, etc. I did however consider the "Prince" title was more an honorific , and perhaps didn't imply anything else. I heard of titles like that in other histories used in that way

Syldras · January 19

Yes, see it as a title, or as something like a function or a word defining their rank in a hierarchy.

S0Z0H · January 19

Syldras wrote: »

Daedric Princes have no gender, they're more or less formless and can swap their appearance anytime. Some appear male most of the time, some female, some change their appearance regularly or look in a way that that makes it hard to define anyway (or could you tell by appearance if a bunch of eyes and tentacles is male or female?).

Ya, interesting. Considering the following , it does kind of explain things.

S0Z0H · January 19

Syldras wrote: »

Yes, see it as a title, or as something like a function or a word defining their rank in a hierarchy.

Ya, that was actually my first intuition , but I didn't know they would of thought of that. Looking back at the lore, the writers definitely have knowledge of mythology and it's concepts and ideas through out literature and things. Makes sense to use similar concepts in their own lore.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · January 19

Syldras wrote: »

Daedric Princes have no gender, they're more or less formless and can swap their appearance anytime. Some appear male most of the time, some female, some change their appearance regularly or look in a way that that makes it hard to define anyway (or could you tell by appearance if a bunch of eyes and tentacles is male or female?).

In addition to this, their title "prince" is not from monarchical titles, such as kings and queens, but from Latin prīnceps, meaning they're the first, chief, sovereign, originator, of most importance or such.

@Syldras could probably explain the Latin better, since he actually got proper knowledge in Latin compared to me.

S0Z0H · January 19

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Daedric Princes have no gender, they're more or less formless and can swap their appearance anytime. Some appear male most of the time, some female, some change their appearance regularly or look in a way that that makes it hard to define anyway (or could you tell by appearance if a bunch of eyes and tentacles is male or female?).

In addition to this, their title "prince" is not from monarchical titles, such as kings and queens, but from Latin prīnceps, meaning they're the first, chief, sovereign, originator, of most importance or such.

@Syldras could probably explain the Latin better, since he actually got proper knowledge in Latin compared to me.

Ya you said everything that I felt , but the words didn't come to mind. I just knew it had to do with old latin or something. I really need to study things like that more

ArchMikem · January 19

Daedra also have no concept, or regard of Royalty. A Daedric Prince is labeled Prince, because they are the ultimate authority in their respective Realm based solely on Power.

Syldras · January 19

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

In addition to this, their title "prince" is not from monarchical titles, such as kings and queens, but from Latin prīnceps, meaning they're the first, chief, sovereign, originator, of most importance or such.

Exactly, it means "the first" (also in normal sentences like "He was the first to leave the room"), "the leader", "the one highest in rank".

Although it's not like real world monarchy, it's more about inherent powers. There's nothing like lesser daedra rebelling to become the new price or something. Maybe it's best compared with... taxonomy in biology? It's a bit hard to compare.

Kalle_Demos · January 19

Syldras wrote: »

Daedric Princes have no gender, they're more or less formless and can swap their appearance anytime. Some appear male most of the time, some female, some change their appearance regularly or look in a way that that makes it hard to define anyway (or could you tell by appearance if a bunch of eyes and tentacles is male or female?).

This. Also, Prince, like Actor, is a gender neutral term.

CameraBeardThePirate · January 20

Syldras wrote: »

Daedric Princes have no gender, they're more or less formless and can swap their appearance anytime. Some appear male most of the time, some female, some change their appearance regularly or look in a way that that makes it hard to define anyway (or could you tell by appearance if a bunch of eyes and tentacles is male or female?).

Boethiah is even different game to game (or sometimes even conversation to conversation).

They're incomprehensible beings that can look like whatever they want, most just have a bit of consistency to their appearance to mortals.

wolfie1.0. · January 20

Nocturnal is deadric prince.

If you have to think of it as a replacement for a God or a president.

TaSheen · January 20

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

Nocturnal is deadric prince.

If you have to think of it as a replacement for a God or a president.

Uh. Well, I am NOT going to post what was the first thought that crossed my mind.

Syldras · January 20

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Boethiah is even different game to game (or sometimes even conversation to conversation).
They're incomprehensible beings that can look like whatever they want, most just have a bit of consistency to their appearance to mortals.

Yes, I know. Even Molag Bal does show up as female sometimes:
"When I was a Dark Elven maid of sixteen, I joined my grandmother's coven, worshippers of Molag Bal, the Schemer Princess. Blackmail, extortion, and bribery are as much the weapons of the Witches of Molag Bal as is dark magic. The Invocation of Molag Bal is held on the 20th of Evening Star, except during stormy weather. This ceremony is seldom missed, but Molag Bal often appears to her cultists in mortal guise on other dates."
Source: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Invocation_of_Azura

Pelanora · January 20

'Deadric princess' doesn't have the same ring to it. Blame Disney i guess.

SandandStars · January 20

Molag Bal

Elvenheart · January 20

I think ZOS shares the concept of Ithelia with Disney, making Ithelia the latest Disney Princess. They left out the part that Golden Road is going to be the first ever ESO musical chapter, complete with singing VAs. 💃🏻 🎶 🎼 🎵

Thevampirenight · January 20

Daedric Princes, like can be any gender they want, some only go with one gender though, Ithelia clearly prefers female forms, Azura is always female, meridia is always female. Sheogorath prefers being male.
Molag Bal does go female at times. but also prefers being male. So some are more fluid with it then other princes who prefer one form or the other.

Syldras · January 20

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Daedric Princes, like can be any gender they want, some only go with one gender though, Ithelia clearly prefers female forms

How do you know? So far we've only seen her once.

Grizzbeorn · January 20

S0Z0H wrote: »

I really need to study things like that more

Including Elder Scrolls lore.

The 'Prince' nomenclature has been well-documented over the course of decades, and there are several Princes who present as female prior to Ithelia being rediscovered.

Syldras · January 20

N00BxV1 wrote: »

[snip]

Oh, someone trying to be funny who doesn't know or understand the difference between sex (different physical aspects of a body, also for example including genes and hormones) and gender (social role including a form of address and behavioral expectations).

[edited to remove quote]

Danikat · January 20

Syldras wrote: »

N00BxV1 wrote: »

[snip]

Oh, someone trying to be funny who doesn't know or understand the difference between sex (different physical aspects of a body, also for example including genes and hormones) and gender (social role including a form of address and behavioral expectations).

Bringing biological sex into it when talking about non-humans is likely to only make it more complicated, especially since I don't think we know how daedra reproduce. Even with real life animals there's a lot that don't fit the same classification as humans, like snails who are always hermaphrodites, clown fish who change sex as required by the group, and bees who in simple terms could be said to have 3 sexes (one of which is asexual) and then there's things like coral which...well Wikpedia had to use a diagram to explain their lifecycle. If we can include plants, fungi and bacteria it gets even more complicated.

Add in the fact that daedra are fictional and there's even more possibilities. It could be that all daedra are asexual and are created by an entirely different process (considering they can't ever be permanently destroyed and will reform from Azure Plasm when killed that seems likely), but it could get much more complicated than that.

[edited to remove quote]

Syldras · January 20

Danikat wrote: »

Bringing biological sex into it when talking about non-humans is likely to only make it more complicated, especially since I don't think we know how daedra reproduce. Even with real life animals there's a lot that don't fit the same classification as humans, like snails who are always hermaphrodites, clown fish who change sex as required by the group, and bees who in simple terms could be said to have 3 sexes (one of which is asexual) and then there's things like coral which...well Wikpedia had to use a diagram to explain their lifecycle. If we can include plants, fungi and bacteria it gets even more complicated.
Add in the fact that daedra are fictional and there's even more possibilities. It could be that all daedra are asexual and are created by an entirely different process (considering they can't ever be permanently destroyed and will reform from Azure Plasm when killed that seems likely), but it could get much more complicated than that.

I know (we also know a bit about how daedra come to existance, by the way, there is no sexual reproduction).

The whole thing I was about is that the gender joke above makes absolutely no sense. Gender is not biology but a social category. So of course Mora can have a gender if he chooses he wants to fit such a category. So "not being able to know ones own gender" doesn't make sense either.

Darkstorne · January 20

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Daedric Princes have no gender, they're more or less formless and can swap their appearance anytime. Some appear male most of the time, some female, some change their appearance regularly or look in a way that that makes it hard to define anyway (or could you tell by appearance if a bunch of eyes and tentacles is male or female?).

This. Also, Prince, like Actor, is a gender neutral term.

And I'm really glad they use it properly in TES. "Actress" always bothers me a bit. You don't say "Doctress".

Danikat · January 20

Darkstorne wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Daedric Princes have no gender, they're more or less formless and can swap their appearance anytime. Some appear male most of the time, some female, some change their appearance regularly or look in a way that that makes it hard to define anyway (or could you tell by appearance if a bunch of eyes and tentacles is male or female?).

This. Also, Prince, like Actor, is a gender neutral term.

And I'm really glad they use it properly in TES. "Actress" always bothers me a bit. You don't say "Doctress".

It wouldn't surprise me if some people do, I've heard other job titles getting randomly gendered before. "Manageress" is the one I've heard most often (always from older people, but I've heard it used as recently as last week). "Park Rangeress" is probably the strangest one I remember, they said it to distinguish between the two Rangers working there, but it was a very strange way to put it.

At least in the UK prince is still a gendered title, I don't think we've ever had woman in the royal family called a prince instead of a princess and I can imagine the reaction from some parts of the media if it happened now. A lot of people are still struggling with (re)learning the fact that a queen consort is still called simply 'the queen', just like a queen regent.

Stx · January 20

Syldras wrote: »

N00BxV1 wrote: »

[snip]

Oh, someone trying to be funny who doesn't know or understand the difference between sex (different physical aspects of a body, also for example including genes and hormones) and gender (social role including a form of address and behavioral expectations).

Gender really doesn’t have a meaning. It used to literally mean the same thing as sex before it was changed in the late 70’s. I’m not sure how this is important to a discussion on Daedric beings.

[edited to remove quote]

virtus753 · January 20

Syldras wrote: »

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

In addition to this, their title "prince" is not from monarchical titles, such as kings and queens, but from Latin prīnceps, meaning they're the first, chief, sovereign, originator, of most importance or such.

Exactly, it means "the first" (also in normal sentences like "He was the first to leave the room"), "the leader", "the one highest in rank".

Although it's not like real world monarchy, it's more about inherent powers. There's nothing like lesser daedra rebelling to become the new price or something. Maybe it's best compared with... taxonomy in biology? It's a bit hard to compare.

Princeps was also used as a term for the leader of the senate in the Republic and was one of the more common terms for the emperor, so it had a specific political meaning and did become monarchical with the onset of Empire. While in establishing the emperorship Augustus did make use of imperator, which gives our "emperor," he set the precedent of using that as a praenomen rather than a term or title for someone in a certain position (as it had been for Republican generals). He was not just an imperator but Imperator; he was not just a princeps taking turns with fellow politicians but the permanent princeps. The emperors also came to have other forms of address or took names as such: dominus (et deus), Caesar, Augustus, etc. But the connotation of princeps and its particular history from the Republic helped them try to maintain an image, especially at first, as a more democratic "leading citizen" or "first among equals" (primus inter pares) rather than an autocrat, despite the reality of the situation.

Princeps is a fitting etymon for "the leading Daedra", imo, and not just because as a third declension word it can theoretically be any grammatical gender: they are superlatively powerful compared to lesser Daedra and the masters of their own realms while also vying with each other in many ways to see who is more powerful than their peers in a given engagement.

Syldras · January 20

Stx wrote: »

Gender really doesn’t have a meaning. It used to literally mean the same thing as sex before it was changed in the late 70’s.

Are you sure about that? The term derives from the Latin word "genus" which means "sort" or "type", and can be used for all types of characterizations, for example also to define different sorts of animals, in Latin.

In English, I have only seen it for grammatical categories before (and later also for the social role of people), as there are many languages that have more than just "the" as an article for things and people. Take German as an example, there the definite articles are "der" (male), "die" (female) und "das" (neutral). These are not related to biological sex in any way and apply to every noun, also to objects and non-physical concepts. And they are random. If it's about living beings, it's congruent with the sex: It's "der Mann" (the man - male grammatical genus) and "die Frau" (the woman - female grammatical genus). But it's also "der Stift" (the pen - male genus) or "der Mond" (the moon - also male) and "die Schraube" (the screw - female) or "die Leiter" (the ladder - female). And it's the same principle also in French, Italian and many other languages. In French and Italian, "the moon" is female, btw.

Stx wrote: »

I’m not sure how this is important to a discussion on Daedric beings.

That's a good question; I found that joke someone posted quite useless, too.

Darkstorne wrote: »

"Actress" always bothers me a bit. You don't say "Doctress".

That's a thing I always found interesting (and a bit weird): Here in my country, it's considered rude and sexist not to gender these kind of words. It's considered standard to use the female form (there's an ending that marks a word as female, you can add it to every word to emphasize gender) for everything if it's about a woman, so you would basically be heavily criticized if you say "actor" instead of "actress". And yes, here, it's also "doctress", "teacheress" and "lawyeress". I always found it weird to emphasize gender so much, when what would be needed was equality.

Syldras · January 20

virtus753 wrote: »

Princeps was also used as a term for the leader of the senate in the Republic and was one of the more common terms for the emperor, so it had a specific political meaning and did become monarchical with the onset of Empire. While in establishing the emperorship Augustus did make use of imperator, which gives our "emperor," he set the precedent of using that as a praenomen rather than a term or title for someone in a certain position (as it had been for Republican generals). He was not just an imperator but Imperator; he was not just a princeps taking turns with fellow politicians but the permanent princeps. The emperors also came to have other forms of address or took names as such: dominus (et deus), Caesar, Augustus, etc. But the connotation of princeps and its particular history from the Republic helped them try to maintain an image, especially at first, as a more democratic "leading citizen" or "first among equals" (primus inter pares) rather than an autocrat, despite the reality of the situation.
Princeps is a fitting etymon for "the leading Daedra", imo, and not just because as a third declension word it can theoretically be any grammatical gender: they are superlatively powerful compared to lesser Daedra and the masters of their own realms while also vying with each other in many ways to see who is more powerful than their peers in a given engagement.

For me personally, it doesn't seem reasonable to apply real-world political and cultural concepts to a fantasy "society" that has completely different rules and mechanisms. That's why I ignored princeps as a title, and rather see a link to the simple grammatical sense, meaning "the first" or "the highest".

Actually it can be also argued if Daedric Princes are truly masters over their realm in the usual sense - it's more that they are an embodiment of their realm. There is a deep connection, they are what their realms is, they cannot change it. A real-world ruler can define their own path, can make decisions, can freely form the land. A Daedric Prince cannot. Mehrunes Dagon could never make his realm a lush jungle, no matter how powerful he seems.