Skill Bar, summoner concerns.

vanity

Hey, I have another question. I'm a mage with summoning and Aoe focus. I use a lot of close range aoe attacks with a summoning focus so my monsters help finish mobs or take agro to prevent my death, however I'm having problems with the skill bars. I have summoning on skill bar one and Aoe on skill bar two. I do my summons and then switch skill bars and it removes all my summons. I can't use my aoe attacks and my summons at the same time?

I see a huge problem with this and my pursuit of complexity. A lot of veteran MMO players like me, not being modest, but having been highest level mage on a grinding MMO for 7 years, and being in top two pvp mages of another game, want to produce, learn, and execute combos that can set you apart and excel you in the game. Especially with so many skills and a variety, it seems completely counterintuitive to limit you to a 5 skill bar. I have huge concerns with these limitations. I'm perfectly okay with two 5 skill skill bars if it weren't for the fact that switching between them nullifies the other skills. I've played games with max 25 skills for a class but still a 12 skill skill bar. Now we are looking at a game with literally dozens and dozens of skills. But you're limited to 5 at a time and one ultimate ability??? I'm so frustrated and confused. I hope to god this is an error because if it's not it makes being a summoner aoe class impossible. Because there aren't single hit summon skills.

Maybe it is a bug, I hope so. Thoughts?

DeathTrap

It's not a bug. Part of the strategy in both PvE and PvP in ESO is to plan ahead with your skill bar. You should have several slots for damaging/CC/etc still after slotting your two summons (Winged Twilight and the monkey thing/Clannfear). And, of course, your Ultimate could be used for the summoning one if you so choose.

vanity

Bound armor as well removes a slot. Which is a very useful skill considering being a light armor mage. My level gives me over 450 armor from bound armor. Thats more than all my armor pieces combined.

vanity

Also, I know how to PVE and PVP ... you're ignoring the fact that I said many people like to play with complex combos ect... I'm pretty sure all games have at least a 10 skill skill bar. I've never seen one with so few until now. Which is why I actually think it is an error to nullify skills on one bar when rotating.

Argent

As far as I know, it is not a bug. Basically, the way to keep your summon when you switch action bars is to have the summon skill on both of your bars (doesn't have to be in the same position on both bars, just present on each). It means you have one less skill to play with on that second bar, but does allow you to keep your summoned creature out.

vanity

That's what I'm doing for now @Argent. It allows utilization of 7 skills which is better than 5 but still a pain in the @ss

DeathTrap

I'm not ignoring it - I mentioned that it's part of the strategy in this game. There's actually several MMOs with fewer skills - Neverwinter, for example.

As for Bound Armor, well, you need to decide if having better armor is worth sacrificing a spell slot for. You could wear a couple pieces of Heavy Armor to compensate for not using Bound Armor. Here's a very quick example of a setup that allows you to have single target attacks with your summons.

vanity

.....nevermind really. I'm level 37 I don't need an example of how to do it, I never said I don't know how to put skills on a skill bar I simply said 5 skills on a bar at a time is painful and that I don't think skill switches just nullify my summons.

Septimus_Magna

I completely understand what you're feeling. I'm only using a pet to level daedric summoning for bound armor. For later I plan on having one dmg bar and one resto/support bar for buffs.

When the fight begins I open will open with buffs, switch bars, then use a CC ability, do some dmg and switch back to reactive buffs or heal if neseccary.

I don't think it's worth it to sacrifice 2/10 slots to have one (almost) worthless pet running around. For leveling early on it can be useful to have a pet but other than that they're way to weak.

Feidam

vanity wrote: »

Also, I know how to PVE and PVP ... you're ignoring the fact that I said many people like to play with complex combos ect... I'm pretty sure all games have at least a 10 skill skill bar. I've never seen one with so few until now. Which is why I actually think it is an error to nullify skills on one bar when rotating.

The skill bar is designed as a tactical give and take. It works great IMO. Forces you to plan ahead. Also allows for adjustment if you fail at an encounter. Toggles are investments if you build your entire character concept around them. It's a trade off that you make. Only you can say if it is worth it to you.

Aimeryan

I don't understand why these things disappear - you used a skill slot for them, so you aren't getting them for "free".

vnlouis

I think, pet summons should be on a seperate UI element, instead of taking up bar slots. If you have two pets active that leaves only 3 slots available for active abilities which is really limiting and boring even with just 1 pet 4 slots is still a bit limited, I think the magika drain mechanic is enough of a limiting factor to help ensure that summoners don't get OP having 5 active skills plus 2 pets besides if the 10% drain per pet isn't enough they could always tweak it a bit to limit the total dps throughput.

iso_1a_ESO

I've said it a thousand times before and I'll say it again: Having your pets + just as many abilities as other players would be extremely unfair. If you're as interested as you say you are at being a "top level mage", then you'd do well to forget about summons entirely and focus on abilities that are actually worth spending points on.

vnlouis

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

iso_1a_ESO

vnlouis wrote: »

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it! The pets need to be buffed and tweaked a little to be viable at all is what I'm saying. As they stand, there are too many negatives to using them to warrant a point being spent and a slot being used. Hopefully in the future, their issues will be polished away and people can then make viable summoner type classes. It is a shame that they are not currently as effective as those who do not use them. But, it's launch week. There is a massive torrent of balancing that will continue for the next 6-8 months, and to a lesser degree after that for the life of the game. I would imagine summoners will get a few little gems in there such as AI improvement, ability clarifications, and etc for their mean little mongrels

vnlouis

iso_1a_ESO wrote: »

vnlouis wrote: »

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it! The pets need to be buffed and tweaked a little to be viable at all is what I'm saying. As they stand, there are too many negatives to using them to warrant a point being spent and a slot being used. Hopefully in the future, their issues will be polished away and people can then make viable summoner type classes. It is a shame that they are not currently as effective as those who do not use them. But, it's launch week. There is a massive torrent of balancing that will continue for the next 6-8 months, and to a lesser degree after that for the life of the game. I would imagine summoners will get a few little gems in there such as AI improvement, ability clarifications, and etc for their mean little mongrels

My point is that the magika drain mechanic should be used to make toggle-able abilities like summons not require bar slots, this way summoners can slot more abilities but still be limited by the *** magika, due to having active pets. If 10% per toggle ability is not enough then the devs should by all means increase the resource drain, I would be happy with that if it made my combat more interesting than just having 3 buttons to press as apposed to the 5 everyone else has.

iso_1a_ESO

vnlouis wrote: »

iso_1a_ESO wrote: »

vnlouis wrote: »

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it! The pets need to be buffed and tweaked a little to be viable at all is what I'm saying. As they stand, there are too many negatives to using them to warrant a point being spent and a slot being used. Hopefully in the future, their issues will be polished away and people can then make viable summoner type classes. It is a shame that they are not currently as effective as those who do not use them. But, it's launch week. There is a massive torrent of balancing that will continue for the next 6-8 months, and to a lesser degree after that for the life of the game. I would imagine summoners will get a few little gems in there such as AI improvement, ability clarifications, and etc for their mean little mongrels

My point is that the magika drain mechanic should be used to make toggle-able abilities like summons not require bar slots, this way summoners can slot more abilities but still be limited by the *** magika, due to having active pets. If 10% per toggle ability is not enough then the devs should by all means increase the resource drain, I would be happy with that if it made my combat more interesting than just having 3 buttons to press as apposed to the 5 everyone else has.

If they made the drains strict enough to limit you, I suppose it could maybe work. Maybe they'll come up with something in the future that satisfies both sides of the issue.

vnlouis

iso_1a_ESO wrote: »

vnlouis wrote: »

iso_1a_ESO wrote: »

vnlouis wrote: »

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it! The pets need to be buffed and tweaked a little to be viable at all is what I'm saying. As they stand, there are too many negatives to using them to warrant a point being spent and a slot being used. Hopefully in the future, their issues will be polished away and people can then make viable summoner type classes. It is a shame that they are not currently as effective as those who do not use them. But, it's launch week. There is a massive torrent of balancing that will continue for the next 6-8 months, and to a lesser degree after that for the life of the game. I would imagine summoners will get a few little gems in there such as AI improvement, ability clarifications, and etc for their mean little mongrels

My point is that the magika drain mechanic should be used to make toggle-able abilities like summons not require bar slots, this way summoners can slot more abilities but still be limited by the *** magika, due to having active pets. If 10% per toggle ability is not enough then the devs should by all means increase the resource drain, I would be happy with that if it made my combat more interesting than just having 3 buttons to press as apposed to the 5 everyone else has.

If they made the drains strict enough to limit you, I suppose it could maybe work. Maybe they'll come up with something in the future that satisfies both sides of the issue.

Yeah, its early days still. I'm sure they are listening to these ideas and will make well thought out informed changes in a balanced way that's fair for everyone. Besides I'm sure there must be some other classes abilities that would benefit from similar treatment.

Feidam

vnlouis wrote: »

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

Doesn't break it at all. You want a pet summoner build you give up valuable skill slots for the build. You have to make choices in ESO. Everything has a trade off. Having pets and all the skill slots available kinda kills the point of the skill system.

Tamanous

The reason a toggle power must be on both bars is because it is a full time power. You pay for it by a reduction of your total magicka AND a slot. When you swap to a new bar it vanishes because you are not longer paying those costs to upkeep the power. It is 100% logical.

We do not get 10 slots and 2 ultimates. We get 2 bars with 5 slots + 1 each and they are independent from each other. When you swap bars forget all about what is on the other bar unless you duplicate it on the second. Duration abilities do not count as they have a short time of life and the fact you paid for the ability with magicka in full, up front.

vnlouis

Feidam wrote: »

vnlouis wrote: »

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

Doesn't break it at all. You want a pet summoner build you give up valuable skill slots for the build. You have to make choices in ESO. Everything has a trade off. Having pets and all the skill slots available kinda kills the point of the skill system.

Ah but there is already a trade off. Your magika gets permanently drained by 10% per summoned pet. If they need to increase the penalty in order to allow the pet abilities to come off the bar then so be it, I would be happier with that and IMO it would make the build more fun to play without making it OP.

LadyChaos

vnlouis wrote: »

iso_1a_ESO wrote: »

vnlouis wrote: »

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

My point is that the magika drain mechanic should be used to make toggle-able abilities like summons not require bar slots, this way summoners can slot more abilities but still be limited by the *** magika, due to having active pets. If 10% per toggle ability is not enough then the devs should by all means increase the resource drain, I would be happy with that if it made my combat more interesting than just having 3 buttons to press as apposed to the 5 everyone else has.

you have 5, tanks, healers etc all lose their buffs when they swap if they are not on both. if you want to have both roles to be summoner you need put pets on both bars just like WE ALL do for our buffs. It is not just a summoner thing. Once you swap weapon you are changing your role.

Down the road I can see skill points to unlock more buttons IMO but as is, for starting point they are all equal here.

Scerria

Pushing more buttons doesn't make a player more skillful. Using those buttons properly in context does. The Secret World for example - a solid contender for the most skill-demanding MMO around - had an actionbar of 7 at launch but successfully achieved a high level of challenge through mechanical depth.

Personally, I'll be waiting to see what kind of experience they can provide with the endgame content before I draw a real conclusion. However, I'd be more worried about the lack - and infact outright restriction - of information available to the player via the UI being the thing that results in a low skill ceiling.

vnlouis

Anyways, as it stands right now, I'm going to have to give up on the idea of a summoner build because its just plain boring being limited to just three active skills, hopefully the devs will come up with a solution to make things more interesting and open up more viable build possibilities, but if they don't so be it, it wont kill the game for me, I'm enjoying myself too much.

ahampelb14_ESO

agreed. I'm not 15 yet so I didn't know this. So I'm going to rethink my character. Stupid design. 20% less mana for 2 crappy pets and 2 wasted slots? No thanks. If the clanfear had a dash and the twilight didn't die if you looked at it, I may reconsider.

steinernein

Hey look a bunch of people with no clue. How cute.

vanity

Well I think my point was missed in the scheme of things but ..... I get all your points... my only problem with the game is the limitation to 10 skills active on a bar. Summons aside. By the time you are Veteran rank, have Vampirism/Werewolf, and PVP skills in addition to that it's really a pain in the ass to only have 10 skills max available for use. Like I said my last MMO had way less skills available and a 12 skill skill bar, with another 6 under tab.
I like to have defensive mode, offensive mode, boss mode and aoe mode. This two cycle of 5 is absolutely ***. I suggest multiple bars for one staff that can be switched to with hotkeys. So you can have many series of setups not two. Lately I've been going trying different things and constantly am changing my bar. It's annoying. There really isn't some complex drive to be "prepared" and "think ahead" ... It just means wasting *** time resetting your skills. It's not debatable that 2x 5 skill bars is way too little for the plethora of skills ESO offers. I'm not playing a gameboy game..... this is a MMORPG with 10's of worlds, 80+ skills, and dozens of different fight scenarios, pvp offense, pvp defense, boss, aoe, dungeon boss, pve single kill, summoner defense.... Like for mage the only way to kill the main quest Molag Bal is full defense and restorative build while summons attack. That's necessary when soloing many bosses. I'm tired of having to remake bars constantly when a 8 skill skill bar could prevent over half of those changes from being necessary.

It's ridiculous and anyone who has ever really gamed in their life would agree. There's no reason to defend something easily changeable and beneficial to ALL classes and all players.

steinernein

For a top player you certainly whine a lot and aren't willing to discuss anything, I know of some entitled actual top players in various communities but most of them are willing to discuss things, since - guess what - it is actually something to debate whether or not the current slots are sufficient for this game play (and they are).

It really boils down to what you think is irrelevant - preparation and analysis. Either adapt and find actual reasons as to why the current system doesn't work or leave.

Nugeneration

vanity wrote: »

Well I think my point was missed in the scheme of things but ..... I get all your points... my only problem with the game is the limitation to 10 skills active on a bar. Summons aside. By the time you are Veteran rank, have Vampirism/Werewolf, and PVP skills in addition to that it's really a pain in the ass to only have 10 skills max available for use. Like I said my last MMO had way less skills available and a 12 skill skill bar, with another 6 under tab.
I like to have defensive mode, offensive mode, boss mode and aoe mode. This two cycle of 5 is absolutely ***. I suggest multiple bars for one staff that can be switched to with hotkeys. So you can have many series of setups not two. Lately I've been going trying different things and constantly am changing my bar. It's annoying. There really isn't some complex drive to be "prepared" and "think ahead" ... It just means wasting *** time resetting your skills. It's not debatable that 2x 5 skill bars is way too little for the plethora of skills ESO offers. I'm not playing a gameboy game..... this is a MMORPG with 10's of worlds, 80+ skills, and dozens of different fight scenarios, pvp offense, pvp defense, boss, aoe, dungeon boss, pve single kill, summoner defense.... Like for mage the only way to kill the main quest Molag Bal is full defense and restorative build while summons attack. That's necessary when soloing many bosses. I'm tired of having to remake bars constantly when a 8 skill skill bar could prevent over half of those changes from being necessary.

It's ridiculous and anyone who has ever really gamed in their life would agree. There's no reason to defend something easily changeable and beneficial to ALL classes and all players.

That is the point of the way skill bars work. The design of the game is for you to plan and use different builds for trash, aoe, questing, PvP, bosses, etc. You can't by design and intention of the game excel at all aspects at once. You change and alternate your build based on your group make up, your intend role in the group (pure pewpewpew players will be extremely disappointed in end game dungeons if you are just trying to maximize dps since you need way more support in this game compared to many other mmo's)

That said don't go into this game with a min/max dps only build, or a build that covers a little in everything. You spread yourself too thin and end up being worse. Pick a role your group/team needs for that certain instance/fight/encounter and set both your action bars for it accordingly. This game is about adaptability and teamwork. By teamwork I am including adjusting your build around everyone else's you are grouped with to achieve maximum efficiency.

Aimeryan

Tamanous wrote: »

The reason a toggle power must be on both bars is because it is a full time power. You pay for it by a reduction of your total magicka AND a slot. When you swap to a new bar it vanishes because you are not longer paying those costs to upkeep the power. It is 100% logical.

We do not get 10 slots and 2 ultimates. We get 2 bars with 5 slots + 1 each and they are independent from each other. When you swap bars forget all about what is on the other bar unless you duplicate it on the second. Duration abilities do not count as they have a short time of life and the fact you paid for the ability with magicka in full, up front.

Explain. Why is two bars of five different to one bar of ten? Besides the obvious (it is incredibly inconvenient, especially with the delay).

Why slot something twice when the cost was already paid by slotting it once?

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO

vnlouis wrote: »

Kind of breaks the philosophy of being able to build whatever build you want, though. Whats wrong with wanting have a build centered around having summoned pets? I don't think limiting your build to only having 3 buttons for active abilities because you chose to have pets is very fair as there is already a cost mechanism in place to make sure they aren't "free" abilities via the magika penalty while the pet is summoned.

In this game, a lot will be wrong with it in groups and high level. The ai is mediocre and includes no player controlability. Combine that with subpar dps and the summons are really poor decisions.