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270k plus accounts reported banned by Blizzard in December alone.

DUTCH_REAPER
DUTCH_REAPER
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ZOS are we going to see accountability like other companies do/ post to their player base showing they do indeed protect the player base?
Edited by ZOS_Hadeostry on January 11, 2024 8:14PM
  • Amottica
    Amottica
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    Zenimax has in the past noted they were banning and suspending players concerning a specific exploit that has been discovered. However, it has only been concerning larger scale exploiting which is what Blizzard spoke to.

    The article speaks to bans in OW2 which is a very popular FPS PvP type of game. It did not note if this ban was all at once or even due to very recent actions. OW2 is also F2P and has a very simple design. That means they can easily eclipse the player base of the largest MMORPGs making it easier to come up with such numbers. Free players are more likely to not be concerned with being banned as they can turn around and create a new account.

  • Pixiepumpkin
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    ZOS should definitely report when cheaters are banned, otherwise it makes it feel like they do not care. Cheating is a problem in every online game, including this one, and many of us know this.

    I stopped engaging in PVP here because I see some extremely shade stuff going on. Brining attention to this stuff on the forums only results in getting flammed/dog piled and reporting that player in game results in zero communication regarding the action taken against that player. This makes me feel helpless/powerless becuase my only option is to not engage and to a degree makes me feel like I am not valued as a customer.

    Not knowing if cheating is being delt with only ensures that players will refrain from partaking in that type of content.
    I am glad to see Blizzard step up and deal with this problem, it shows they care about their product and their customers. I'd like to see the same happen here.

    I personally hope with ZOS having new ownership that we'll see a shakeup internally and better communication to the customer will be implemented. I'd like to think they care more about my experience in game than my wallet. However that is not the impression I currently have.
    "𝕰𝖛𝖊𝖓 𝕲𝖔𝖉𝖘 𝖉𝖎𝖘𝖑𝖎𝖐𝖊 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖆𝖇𝖘𝖔𝖑𝖚𝖙𝖊, 𝖋𝖔𝖗 𝖎𝖙 𝖘𝖙𝖎𝖓𝖐𝖘 𝖔𝖋 𝖘𝖔𝖒𝖊𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝖑𝖆𝖗𝖌𝖊𝖗 𝖙𝖍𝖆𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖛𝖊𝖘." ― Sotha Sil
    PC/NA
  • Freilauftomate
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    A game should be designed in a way that makes cheating as hard as possible. It should be a place where cheating and violating the rules doesn't pay. But randomly punishing thousands of players just to make a point doesn't help. Putting everyone in constant fear of impossible rules and a cruel government doesn't solve "crime". It's no substitute for a good system. It's just desperate, unfair and lazy.

    I wouldn't feel comfortable playing a game where bots automatically warn and ban players, just because someone decided to report them, even if they haven't done anything wrong.
    Edited by Freilauftomate on January 8, 2024 7:11AM
  • FlopsyPrince
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    Blizzard is making wayshrines accountwide at no extra cost. Not the ESO way most likely!

    Though perhaps we could get it as a Crown Store item!
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  • ADarklore
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    Personally, I don't care about 'cheating' as it doesn't impact how I play the game. But I do know that ZOS has mentioned several times about accounts being 'actioned' for nefarious activity.
    Edited by ADarklore on January 8, 2024 11:44AM
    CP: 1880 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ Stamina Dragonknight ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****
  • Dagoth_Rac
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    No one bans 270K players in a month with careful, thoughtful manual review. That is just some server side algorithm banning anyone who meets various, often arbitrary, "suspicious" criteria. That may be fine for simple, F2P games without any kind of deep player engagement with the game world. Large scale algorithmic banning in a game like ESO is not going to ban 270K cheaters. It is going to do something like ban 220K cheaters and 50K innocent victims, and the bad PR from banning 50K innocent victims will be a nightmare in a game with loyal players with years worth of accumulated gear and skills and achievements and characters.

    You really have two options:

    1). Make every effort to ban all cheaters, but accept that innocent victims will be pulled in.
    2). Make every effort to never ban an innocent victim, but accept that cheaters will sneak through.

    Everyone wants an option where every cheater gets banned without exception but no one ever gets banned by accident. That option does not exist in the real world. Not in games with millions of players where algorithmic pattern matching is the only way to efficiently ban players. Having ZOS employees do deep manual investigations into every reported or algorithmically flagged suspicious activity in Cyrodiil is simply not feasible.

    Blizzard went route #1. ZOS seem to have gone route #2. ZOS seem to only ban in cases of really overt smoking gun open-and-shut guilt.

    Pick your poison. Option #1 or Option #2. There is good and bad with both.

    Also don't forget that ZOS has moved a lot of client-side processing to server-side over the course of last 10 years. It has really hurt performance in Cyrodiil as the server has so much more to calculate compared to when the game engine was written. And that has almost all been anti-cheat efforts as server side calculations are harder to cheat than client side.

    So I think ZOS does take cheating seriously. Seriously enough to hurt performance. People talk about the glory days of Cyrodiil, with keep fights featuring hundreds of players and no lag. Yeah, because all the calculations were being done on the player's machines, not the server. And cheating was rampant. You think there is cheating in Cyrodiil now? It is about 1% of the cheating in the early days of the game.

    ZOS seem to approach this from a preference to stop cheating at the source, rather than let it happen, ban people, rinse and repeat.
  • Amottica
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    ZOS should definitely report when cheaters are banned, otherwise it makes it feel like they do not care.

    Zenimax, like any game, is constantly banning and suspending players, and none report such actions except when it is done on a large scale. That is exactly what Blizzard just did.

  • Amottica
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    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    No one bans 270K players in a month with careful, thoughtful manual review. That is just some server side algorithm banning anyone who meets various, often arbitrary, "suspicious" criteria. That may be fine for simple, F2P games without any kind of deep player engagement with the game world. Large scale algorithmic banning in a game like ESO is not going to ban 270K cheaters. It is going to do something like ban 220K cheaters and 50K innocent victims, and the bad PR from banning 50K innocent victims will be a nightmare in a game with loyal players with years worth of accumulated gear and skills and achievements and characters.

    You really have two options:

    1). Make every effort to ban all cheaters, but accept that innocent victims will be pulled in.
    2). Make every effort to never ban an innocent victim, but accept that cheaters will sneak through.

    Everyone wants an option where every cheater gets banned without exception but no one ever gets banned by accident. That option does not exist in the real world. Not in games with millions of players where algorithmic pattern matching is the only way to efficiently ban players. Having ZOS employees do deep manual investigations into every reported or algorithmically flagged suspicious activity in Cyrodiil is simply not feasible.

    Blizzard went route #1. ZOS seem to have gone route #2. ZOS seem to only ban in cases of really overt smoking gun open-and-shut guilt.

    Pick your poison. Option #1 or Option #2. There is good and bad with both.

    Also don't forget that ZOS has moved a lot of client-side processing to server-side over the course of last 10 years. It has really hurt performance in Cyrodiil as the server has so much more to calculate compared to when the game engine was written. And that has almost all been anti-cheat efforts as server side calculations are harder to cheat than client side.

    So I think ZOS does take cheating seriously. Seriously enough to hurt performance. People talk about the glory days of Cyrodiil, with keep fights featuring hundreds of players and no lag. Yeah, because all the calculations were being done on the player's machines, not the server. And cheating was rampant. You think there is cheating in Cyrodiil now? It is about 1% of the cheating in the early days of the game.

    ZOS seem to approach this from a preference to stop cheating at the source, rather than let it happen, ban people, rinse and repeat.

    Correct. It is an "AI" Blizzard uses to detect cheating in OW2, the game that had all those bans.

    How well defined that AI is we do not know but it is also an extremely simplistic game compared to ESO. The game encompasses a small fraction of what makes up ESO.

    Do not get me wrong. I like OW2 and prefer their PvP over our BG design and it is also much more competitive.
  • Elsonso
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    Generally speaking, I have to think that a lot of people who cheat in a game know they are cheating in the game.

    The ones that concern me are the ones that are "seduced by the dark side" due to players who know they are cheating spreading misinformation that it is OK to do it.
    Dagoth_Rac wrote: »
    1). Make every effort to ban all cheaters, but accept that innocent victims will be pulled in.
    2). Make every effort to never ban an innocent victim, but accept that cheaters will sneak through.

    Blizzard went route #1. ZOS seem to have gone route #2. ZOS seem to only ban in cases of really overt smoking gun open-and-shut guilt.

    I don't know that ZOS is necessarily taking a route that prevents banning innocents. They don't actually talk enough about such things to make any determination about that, and we certainly see a lot of potential "edge cases" here in the forum.

    What concerns me about bans around here is when they seem to be arbitrary and disconnected. Bans happen and, too often, no one knows what the player was doing. It isn't possible to know if someone was deliberately cheating, seduced into cheating, or just wrong place wrong time. It isn't possible to say that innocents were not banned.

    I don't think ZOS needs to be an open book about bans, but it would be nice to know the title and what the book is about. :smile:

    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • Einar_Hrafnarsson
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    If Zeni did that, they would be out of players in 1 month. ESO is pretty small compared to WoW.
  • Amottica
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    If Zeni did that, they would be out of players in 1 month. ESO is pretty small compared to WoW.

    I have not seen anything that stated that Blizzard banned or suspended all those players at once. It is likely over a period of time. Many are likely the same player getting banned multiple times since it is a F2P game and banning an IP address is not practical.

  • Vulkunne
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    So many people with pitchforks these days.

    Cheating is a two way street. On the one hand, there are bannable offenses. On the other, there are things the game developers also need to do to prevent the cheating.

    The spirit of the law is in prevention first and punishing the crime second. No justice if there is no mechanism to support prevention. If the deviants choose to willfully go around that then yeah that's on them. But just remember in any company when dealing with your customers, there is no substitute for good customer service.

    Blizzard might not be the best example for us to look up to and I would not want ESO to mirror them on everything - surely. Now that I think about it a little more, it begs the question... did all those people cheat or is Blizzard not doing something to right?
    Edited by Vulkunne on January 8, 2024 9:32PM
    I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. I can tell you I don't have money, but what I do have are a very particular set of skills.
  • Sakiri
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    The game is nothing like it used to be in terms of bots.

    I'm fine where we're at, and reporting numbers doesn't do anything productive in the long run.

    FFXIV does a weekly report of how many accounts it's banned for cheating and stuff(mostly RMT) but thats about the only example I know of that does so.

    Blizzard doesn't do it often, and I don't really care about what they do in overwatch.
  • Elsonso
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    Sakiri wrote: »
    The game is nothing like it used to be in terms of bots.

    That depends on what you are comparing it to.

    If you are talking about the days where every node in starting zones had a character camped on it? Yes, better.

    If you are talking PC NA bots running patterns in starting areas? Yes, better.

    If you are talking XBox bots in starting areas? They were easy to see while doing the Stonetooth quest for New Life.

    PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
    XBox EU/NA: @ElsonsoJannus
    X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus
  • Warhawke_80
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    So many people with pitchforks these days.

    Yep I miss how Zos use to run the forums...you didn't see all the non constructive/trollish posts
    ““Elric knew. The sword told him, without words of any sort. Stormbringer needed to fight, for that was its reason for existence...”― Michael Moorcock, Elric of Melniboné
  • reazea
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    So many people with pitchforks these days.

    Yep I miss how Zos use to run the forums...you didn't see all the non constructive/trollish posts

    ...speaking of pitchforks and irony....

    "the world is made for people who aren't cursed with self awareness"

    Edited by reazea on January 9, 2024 12:23AM
This discussion has been closed.