Please add "Solo with Companion" as an Infinite Archive Leaderboard

SilverBride

Right now we have Solo that is just the player, then Duo that is either a Player and Companion or 2 Players. We are all aware that a Companion isn't comparable to another Player so why not create a 3rd Leaderboard to represent this?

So we would have Solo, Solo with Companion or Duo.

Araneae6537

I personally think it’s okay as is. I think companions weren’t going to be allowed at all at first, so I’m grateful that changed and even more so that ZOS made them survive so much better so they can help with harder content. I don’t need extra rewards as well — although I can certainly use all the transmute crystals I can get!

On the other hand, ZOS did make a separate achievement for completing so many stages with a companion, so it would not be unfitting to have a third set of leaderboards.

Erickson9610

I agree. Even if Companions were as good as Players are, they operate fundamentally different. Players who invest time in their Companion builds aren't being respected for their effort, because anyone can claim that their Duo leaderboard rank was done with another Player. I personally want there to be some competitive scene for Companion builds, and the Infinite Archive is almost the perfect metric for comparing the capability of Player + Companion builds.

As for how the leaderboards would probably be handled: If a Player entered Solo, then summoned a Companion, then they would be put on the Duo with Companion leaderboard. If that Player then invited a friend, then the Player would be put on the Duo with Player leaderboard. Once on the Duo with Player leaderboard, they cannot move back to either the Solo or the Duo with Companion leaderboards, just as you can't return to the Solo leaderboard if the second Player leaves during the middle of a Duo run.

So, the levels of leaderboard elevation would be:

• Solo -> Duo with Companion -> Duo with Player

...where players cannot return to the lower level leaderboards without resetting the run.

AlterBlika

Now they do belong in duo leaderboard though, considering their insane mitigation.

Erickson9610

AlterBlika wrote: »

Now they do belong in duo leaderboard though, considering their insane mitigation.

If a Player dies in a run with another Player, then the second Player still has an opportunity to finish the stage or revive the first Player without losing a Thread. Companions, on the other hand, cannot revive Players, so dying with a Companion immediately results in the loss of a Thread. That's one major difference between Players and Companions that warrants a distinction with the leaderboards.

Hapexamendios

They should be considered a separate category from 2 players together.

spartaxoxo

AlterBlika wrote: »

Now they do belong in duo leaderboard though, considering their insane mitigation.

Mitigation or not, you get effectively half the threads and verses.

Erickson9610

It's also worth noting that a group of two Players who each have the extra starting Thread upgrade will start runs with 5 Threads, because both players contribute 1 extra starting Thread. A Player with their Companion will only ever be able to start runs with 4 Threads with the upgrade, because Companions do not contribute an extra starting Thread.

ADarklore

I agree, create a separate category, it's that simple. I don't know why they put them in a category that compares playing with another player, when companions certainly don't compare.

Buffy121

I agree. A companion certainly doesn't compare to playing with another player. A separate leader board for players with companions makes sense to me.

Elvenheart

Agreed. There should be a separate category for a player and a companion. I found my companion useful, but they are definitely not on the same level as duoing with another player.

Dragonnord

SilverBride wrote: »

We are all aware that a Companion isn't comparable to another Player

What?! I have seen companions doing it a lot better than some tank players dying to stupid, to bosses heavy attacks or directly not being able to resist stacked damage.

I can assure you that, after the companions changes for Infinite Archive where they receive no damage from AoEs and so, they are better than many regular tank players.
 

AzuraFan

As I've said before, ZOS is delusional about how effective the companions are if it considers them the same as having another player along. The mitigation changes help, but not by much.

Honestly, since I don't care about leaderboards, I'd be fine if they just went away. But since they won't, then yes, player + companion is nowhere near the same as two players, and isn't the same as truly solo.

SilverBride

Dragonnord wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We are all aware that a Companion isn't comparable to another Player

What?! I have seen companions doing it a lot better than some player tanks dying to stupid, to bosses heavy attacks or directly not being able to resist stacked damage

I can assure you that, after the companions changes for IA where they receive no damage from AoEs and so, they are better than many regular tank players.

I find that Companions can make pretty good tanks and they definitely are more helpful after the changes. But they can't think and reason and adjust their strategy like a player can.

I usually take Azandar to tank for me and he aggros whatever mob I am attacking. So if I get a Marauder for example, I attack it to get Azandar to focus on it. But if I veer off to clear out some of the trash he breaks his aggro with the Marauder and runs after the trash. A player would know not to do this.

AzuraFan

SilverBride wrote: »

I usually take Azandar to tank for me and he aggros whatever mob I am attacking. So if I get a Marauder for example, I attack it to get Azandar to focus on it. But if I veer off to clear out some of the trash he breaks his aggro with the Marauder and runs after the trash. A player would know not to do this.

You can direct companions/pets to attack a specific target and they'll stay on that target until it's dead (or they are). It's a double-edged sword because sometimes you want them to break off and come help. You can retarget them, but it can be difficult in the heat of battle.

Braffin

Agreed, runs with companions neither fit into solo leaderboards nor duo leaderboards and therefore should have their own.

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

Right now we have Solo that is just the player, then Duo that is either a Player and Companion or 2 Players. We are all aware that a Companion isn't comparable to another Player so why not create a 3rd Leaderboard to represent this?

:thumbs up:

I never understood why they decided to include companions in the leaderboard.

Solo+Companion is unlikely to achieve as much as Duo, but will do better than just Solo. It's really unfair for them to be included in either of the leaderboards.

SilverBride

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin

Please consider this request.

Number_51

Dragonnord wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We are all aware that a Companion isn't comparable to another Player

What?! I have seen companions doing it a lot better than some tank players dying to stupid, to bosses heavy attacks or directly not being able to resist stacked damage.

I can assure you that, after the companions changes for Infinite Archive where they receive no damage from AoEs and so, they are better than many regular tank players.
 

Yup, somewhere near the end of arc 4 my Sharp tank was getting upset with me for running us out of threads. Even threatened to 'take my stuff'.

MidniteOwl1913

SilverBride wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We are all aware that a Companion isn't comparable to another Player

What?! I have seen companions doing it a lot better than some player tanks dying to stupid, to bosses heavy attacks or directly not being able to resist stacked damage

I can assure you that, after the companions changes for IA where they receive no damage from AoEs and so, they are better than many regular tank players.

I find that Companions can make pretty good tanks and they definitely are more helpful after the changes. But they can't think and reason and adjust their strategy like a player can.

I usually take Azandar to tank for me and he aggros whatever mob I am attacking. So if I get a Marauder for example, I attack it to get Azandar to focus on it. But if I veer off to clear out some of the trash he breaks his aggro with the Marauder and runs after the trash. A player would know not to do this.

For me I want Isobel to keep on the boss while I kill the gold goblin guy, nope she chases him with me. They are not people and should in no way be counted as people. They are very useful tools, that's it.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We are all aware that a Companion isn't comparable to another Player

What?! I have seen companions doing it a lot better than some player tanks dying to stupid, to bosses heavy attacks or directly not being able to resist stacked damage

I can assure you that, after the companions changes for IA where they receive no damage from AoEs and so, they are better than many regular tank players.

I find that Companions can make pretty good tanks and they definitely are more helpful after the changes. But they can't think and reason and adjust their strategy like a player can.

I usually take Azandar to tank for me and he aggros whatever mob I am attacking. So if I get a Marauder for example, I attack it to get Azandar to focus on it. But if I veer off to clear out some of the trash he breaks his aggro with the Marauder and runs after the trash. A player would know not to do this.

I agree. The last time I ran with a companion, Bastian just glitched out and refused to aggro the marauder. He kept attacking anything but the marauder even though I was heavy attacking only the marauder while doing my best to kite him away. Eventually, Gothmau killed me and that was the end of the run.

That's not the kind of thing that can happen with another human being. They are more useful now than just being alone but they still don't compare to another human being. They need their own leaderboard. They aren't fair being put on either solo or duo.

Heelie

The companion system came with a promise that it would never be for competitive play, I will never touch the system. And would hate to touch it just to be competitive.

SilverBride

But making it part of the Infinte Archive Duo already made it competitive. So why not a separate leaderbaord that doesn't affect the Solo and Duo for just players?

Elsonso

SilverBride wrote: »

But making it part of the Infinte Archive Duo already made it competitive. So why not a separate leaderbaord that doesn't affect the Solo and Duo for just players?

Is it competitive, though? I mean, compared to two players, is a player and a companion really able to compete?

Reverb

Dragonnord wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

We are all aware that a Companion isn't comparable to another Player

What?! I have seen companions doing it a lot better than some tank players dying to stupid, to bosses heavy attacks or directly not being able to resist stacked damage.

I can assure you that, after the companions changes for Infinite Archive where they receive no damage from AoEs and so, they are better than many regular tank players.
 

Well having separate leaderboard would allow us to definitively settle the topic, eh? We’d see whether the two player or the player+companion boards have the higher scores.

No matter how much damage mitigation they have, they are a disadvantage compared to having two people. A second player can bring an extra thread, can rez you if you die, can actively collaborate and make strategic decisions.

I honestly don’t understand why anyone would be opposed to having a companion leaderboard. Nobody is calling for changes to the companion mechanics, or saying they aren’t strong. We’re just saying they aren’t the same as a person and should be tracked separately.

SilverBride

Elsonso wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

But making it part of the Infinte Archive Duo already made it competitive. So why not a separate leaderbaord that doesn't affect the Solo and Duo for just players?

Is it competitive, though? I mean, compared to two players, is a player and a companion really able to compete?

That's my point. They can't. Yet they are being judged the same as if they were a real player. That's why there needs to be separate leaderboards.

DarcyMardin

I don’t care about leaderboards, but would definitely like to see an option that separates between duo playing the IA with two actual humans and the fake duo combo of solo player and (fairly useless) companion.

Araneae6537

Heelie wrote: »

The companion system came with a promise that it would never be for competitive play, I will never touch the system. And would hate to touch it just to be competitive.

We’re talking about having a separate leaderboard so that players with companions would only be competing against each other. Reading this thread, I increasingly think it would be a good idea, if they are going to be on a leaderboard at all. I also wouldn’t object to runs with companions not being in contention for either leaderboard. I’m happy with how companions perform in the Archive now and do it for fun and to get the rewards from the run. Sure, I’d be interested in the results if one was added, but I don’t need it to be an option. I’m happy with having completed arc 4 with Sharp-as-Night and my shroom beetle with me all the way!

Amottica

The leaderboard is for players, not AI.

Erickson9610

Amottica wrote: »

The leaderboard is for players, not AI.

Companions are an extension of the Player's build. That is, the build of Companions is fully determined by the Player who summons them — the Companion itself doesn't choose their own build. You can think of the Companion system like a customizable pet system in that regard. Companions are just in a strange spot where they're far superior to standard pets because of this customization, but they're counted as Players despite not having the same functionality as Players.

You're right that the leaderboard is for Players. That's why a "Duo with Companion" leaderboard would still have a Player in it. It involves the Player enough to not be considered a Companion-only leaderboard.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

The leaderboard is for players, not AI.

Hence "Solo with Companion" as the title. So, that the players' accomplishment is acknowledged rather than the AI. As it stands, the companion gets recognized as a player when placed on a duo leaderboard as if they are no different to a person.