rapid regen vs vigor

seventy_kg

why is rapid regen such a useless skill compared to resolving vigor, this skill as it stands has no place in pvp or pve.
1. the heal is less effective than resolving vigor, and it doesn't give minor resolve
2. radiant regen is the much better morph for group heals
3. it randomly targets one friendly target for some reason instead of just targeting yourself which makes this skill useless in pvp

i see no reason why this skill should target friendly targets, the other morph is always going to be the preferred group heal morph so why not make this morph target yourself only, even at a increased cost more people would use it.

Freilauftomate

It has always been a mystery how targeting works with vigor and regen.

AcadianPaladin

PvE only here but agree that rapid regen is of no interest to me. It is trying to be almost a burst heal but there are better options for that. Radiating regen is indeed much better - a nice hot with a semi-reasonable up time. Smart targeting and long range are its advantages over Vigor - which has a better duration and eases magicka use by using stam.

emilyhyoyeon

Resolving vigor should've never gotten the minor resolve IMO. When that happened it seemed like it became an undroppable skill in PVP.

YandereGirlfriend

Yes, this skill is beyond useless and it has been for years.

It should probably be changed to a self-heal (take Radiating if you want to heal a group) and given a nice buff like Minor Courage or Minor Vitality.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it's about mechanics.

Thank you for your understanding

seventy_kg

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Yes, this skill is beyond useless and it has been for years.

It should probably be changed to a self-heal (take Radiating if you want to heal a group) and given a nice buff like Minor Courage or Minor Vitality.

true that would definitely give people a reason to use it

SandandStars

Stamina has to maintain superiority in pvp. Unless youre a nightblade, in which case, it doesnt matter.

OBJnoob

SandandStars wrote: »

Stamina has to maintain superiority in pvp. Unless youre a nightblade, in which case, it doesnt matter.

Always confuses me when people say this. I must be doing something wrong. Seems to me that after hybridization all the best class skills became magic ones. My wardens, DKs, NBs, and sorcs all use more magic abilities than stam ones. Well no, the sorc still uses mostly stam skills, but I did start using curse which is nice.

SandandStars

yes, I’d agree stam builds incorporated a lot more mag skills after hybridization, but it seems I see a lot more 2h/DW & vigor spammers than otherwise? I assume these ppl have more base stam than mag?

SandandStars

addendum: hybridization was a boon to stam sorcs, while simultaneously relegating magsorcs to zookeepers. Do you think?

Turtle_Bot

OBJnoob wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

Stamina has to maintain superiority in pvp. Unless youre a nightblade, in which case, it doesnt matter.

Always confuses me when people say this. I must be doing something wrong. Seems to me that after hybridization all the best class skills became magic ones. My wardens, DKs, NBs, and sorcs all use more magic abilities than stam ones. Well no, the sorc still uses mostly stam skills, but I did start using curse which is nice.

The reason mag seemed to become more popular after hybridization, was because the majority of buff/debuff/utility/healing skills all cost mag, since in PvP you want to have as many of these as you can fit with the most efficient combinations of effects as possible, a lot of mag abilities crept onto the skill bars. However, the strongest damage abilities remained mostly stamina outside of NB (concealed) which costs mag and DK (whip) which costs both, because the stamina weapons are just objectively generically stronger than staves outside of specifically ele sus.

This is probably where the disparity lies, most builds typically were defined as mag or stam depending on the weapons they ran (and cost of their spammable) and with dual wield being BiS weapons (again, outside of specifically ele sus) most will fit into that old definition of "stamina" builds despite the fact that they are technically hybrid builds because they are using the stamina weapons (dual wield).

SandandStars wrote: »

addendum: hybridization was a boon to stam sorcs, while simultaneously relegating magsorcs to zookeepers. Do you think?

yep, sorcerer is probably the last remaining class that has distinct playstyle differences between mag and stam focused builds (again, these are hybrid, but focus more on 1 resource than other classes do), unfortunately mag focused hybrid sorc is forced into zookeeper or draugrkin + crushing shock, which severely limits it, while stamina focused hybrid sorc gets to play more modern playstyles with slightly better flexibility in what it can run.

Back to the original topic, Rapid regen definitely should have been made into a self-target heal. It could remain exactly as it is in terms of heal amount and the increased heal when low health, but have change it to be a self heal only (with radiating being the group heal morph) and it would increase build diversity a lot as many classes could now choose resto staff over vigor on the back bar.

It would probably actually help reduce the tank meta too, since those running resto staff back bar would not have frost staff on the back bar anymore reducing their mitigation by a fair amount, even with the additional heals, they would still take significantly more damage. Running resto on the back bar also reduces the amount of resources available to block cast with, since you can no longer use stam on front bar for blocking while using mag on the back bar for blocking so it would reduce the free sustain too.

IZZEFlameLash

Hybridization kinda covered up this issue because now everyone can use Vigor morphs. But, same as before, Mutagen's targetting (that you don't have a guarantee of hitting yourself since 'you OR your allies') and the fact that it offers only healing, nothing else while requiring a weapon to use makes this far undesirable compared to Vigor and its morphs.

Pre-hybridization era, it was far easier to stack up weapon damage compared to spell too iirc. So, you had a hilarious situation of stam specs having better self-healing with just Vigor and its morphs than magicka specs in most cases save for healers. Meanwhile, magicka specs struggled to hit themselves with Mutagen and its morphs because the heal always went to that crouching bow light attacker next to you due to 'lower health', making them forced to use far more expensive burst heal skills if they had one in class.

OBJnoob

Well. To me it's always made sense that Vigor be really strong. I don't really love that it gives minor resolve, but the healing power is what it is. There are precious few stam heals in the game... So before hybridization it made sense to give stam toons something. And now, after hybridization, mag users can also use it effectively and honestly probably really benefit from the stam dump so I still don't see a real problem.

Resto users can heavy attack for major mending so that should be considered when comparing the tooltips I think. And also it should maybe just be understood that with a resto staff you're preparing to heal others not just yourself. Using a resto staff opens up a possibility for lots of different healing abilities, not just regen. And if the other abilities don't seem very useful maybe that's because of the extremely powerful class heals everyone (except sorc,) has access to not just Vigor.

If healing itself is a problem (I think it is,) then by all means let's nerf healing. But let's nerf it across the board. I don't think the relationship between regen and Vigor is that important to the topic. What healing, overall, definitely doesn't need is a buff.

SandandStars

Yeah I don’t mind where vigor is at, just think rapid regen has been left behind & needs a tune-up.

I slot vigor when I can on my “mag hybrid” chars (templar, warden) bc it’s a strong hot and the minor resolve makes a difference. I also agree the minor resolve could be dropped to be more balanced, but in the broader scheme of unbalanced skills/classes, etc., I’m not too worried about it.

I’d adjust merciless resolve or nb’s superior heals (or concealed wep) at the top of my list. A truly skilled nb (or 3 of them) is fully capable of ruining the bgs I play in. The class is really out there right now.

El_Borracho

SandandStars wrote: »

yes, I’d agree stam builds incorporated a lot more mag skills after hybridization, but it seems I see a lot more 2h/DW & vigor spammers than otherwise? I assume these ppl have more base stam than mag?

I use Vigor as a heal on almost all PVP builds as its a solid burst heal with Minor Resolve. But to the original point of stamina being the go-to in PVP, I would disagree. @OBJnoob is spot on, I feel most use magicka skills as their primary damage/shield and reserve stamina for gap closers, heals, and block/roll dodge/running for your life. With the exceptions of Stam Sorc and the occasional Werewolf

OBJnoob

Glad someone agrees... Maybe I'm not doing it wrong after all.

Yeah, stam weapons are the thing these days for front bar, but that's really only because of the strength of class abilities. Unless you're using an arena weapon, weapon skills aren't needed these days. And those class skills? They're mag.

CameraBeardThePirate

OBJnoob wrote: »

Glad someone agrees... Maybe I'm not doing it wrong after all.

Yeah, stam weapons are the thing these days for front bar, but that's really only because of the strength of class abilities. Unless you're using an arena weapon, weapon skills aren't needed these days. And those class skills? They're mag.

Cries in Necro

OBJnoob

LOL touche

CameraBeardThePirate

OBJnoob wrote: »

LOL touche

Edit: I got a little long winded and off-topic here: I want to highlight that my issue with Vigor isn't the healing, but the must have, otherwise hard to get buff that it is attached to.

Class alternatives to just about any skill should always be superior - it's what keeps class flavor and distinction alive.

Necro is bad* right now precisely because they have to run so many non-class abilities. Their class abilities are either garbage, broken, or don't give them the buffs that are mandatory on every build. They have a few strong abilities here and there but their abilities can largely be replaced or must be replaced by non-class abilities.

Things like Vigor, that are not only unbelievably strong based on tooltip alone, but also give an otherwise hard to get buff are simply necessary on a build and will win out against almost any class ability. That shouldn't happen with non-class abilities, imo. There should never be a "must slot" non-class ability. Weapon, world, guild, and alliance skills should always be options that are present to round out a build, not must haves that you put on your bar before even considering what other skills you should run. There should be strong stam healing options, but they should exist as class abilities as well, or at the very least not overshadow them.

*necro can still be decent in specific situations/environments, they just struggle in a lot of more generalized roles.

TL;DR: there should never be non-class abilities as strong as Vigor when pitiful excuses for class abilities like Empowering Grasp and Bolstering Darkness exist

OBJnoob

That line of thinking is why so many people think hybridization killed class diversity. They somehow don't also remember that when weapon skills were actually useful two characters of the same class could be differentiated by the weapons and skills they use.

It's okay for not every class to have an execute. Go get one. This creates diversity. It's okay if every class doesn't have a spammable. Go get one. This creates choices-- which creates diversity.

In my way of thinking every class should lack 1 important tool that they have to get from elsewhere. Not only does this create diversity but it also creates a rock-paper-scissors feel where every class can counter one class.

Instead, now, we have 3 or 4 classes noticably better than the rest and there's nothing a piece of paper can do against that rock. Why are they better? Because their class skills are better of course. Why can't a Necro compete? Because they're the paper. And the only thing they can use, no matter what weapon they equip or guild they grind, is more paper.

The 4 rock classes don't lack for anything. THAT is the problem, and that's what kills diversity. If you have any knowledge about the game at all your gear and skill bars practically set themselves up. Boooooriiiing.

CameraBeardThePirate

OBJnoob wrote: »

That line of thinking is why so many people think hybridization killed class diversity. They somehow don't also remember that when weapon skills were actually useful two characters of the same class could be differentiated by the weapons and skills they use.

It's okay for not every class to have an execute. Go get one. This creates diversity. It's okay if every class doesn't have a spammable. Go get one. This creates choices-- which creates diversity.

In my way of thinking every class should lack 1 important tool that they have to get from elsewhere. Not only does this create diversity but it also creates a rock-paper-scissors feel where every class can counter one class.

Instead, now, we have 3 or 4 classes noticably better than the rest and there's nothing a piece of paper can do against that rock. Why are they better? Because their class skills are better of course. Why can't a Necro compete? Because they're the paper. And the only thing they can use, no matter what weapon they equip or guild they grind, is more paper.

The 4 rock classes don't lack for anything. THAT is the problem, and that's what kills diversity. If you have any knowledge about the game at all your gear and skill bars practically set themselves up. Boooooriiiing.

I agree that every class should lack a tool, although I don't think more useful weapon skills would solve hybridization/class diversity.

The problem with hybridization is, imo, moreso that the devs released it and then almost entirely stopped balancing abilities. The game desperately needs a single patch that goes through and buffs almost all of the lesser-used morphs. Hybridization killed diversity because when every build can use either morph of any skill, skill morphs need to be comparable with each other for your choices to matter. Otherwise everyone will just always go with the better one.

chessalavakia_ESO

Regeneration: Reduced the healing per tick of this ability and its morphs by 40%.

Rapid Regeneration (morph): This morph now also increases healing done by up to 50% on targets under 100% Health.

ZOS nerf hammered Regegenration. The numbers for it compared to Vigor are horrible because of that change.

SandandStars

So you can run a 2h & spam dizzy/executioner, or DW & spam rending/whirling, or bow gank lethal/pi (just for scavenging maw, tbf) and use vigor as your msin heal while still running higher magicka pool & regen?

Genuinely curious. I tend to play ranged builds that rely on magicka skills (templar, magsorc, arc, magden) and always struggle to get enough stamina regen. I always figured stamina & stam regen would be in vry high demand for those stam spam/execute builds? God knows I could be totally wrong. I play solo too much probably. Would love to hear from y’all with more experience & insight.

OBJnoob

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

That line of thinking is why so many people think hybridization killed class diversity. They somehow don't also remember that when weapon skills were actually useful two characters of the same class could be differentiated by the weapons and skills they use.

It's okay for not every class to have an execute. Go get one. This creates diversity. It's okay if every class doesn't have a spammable. Go get one. This creates choices-- which creates diversity.

In my way of thinking every class should lack 1 important tool that they have to get from elsewhere. Not only does this create diversity but it also creates a rock-paper-scissors feel where every class can counter one class.

Instead, now, we have 3 or 4 classes noticably better than the rest and there's nothing a piece of paper can do against that rock. Why are they better? Because their class skills are better of course. Why can't a Necro compete? Because they're the paper. And the only thing they can use, no matter what weapon they equip or guild they grind, is more paper.

The 4 rock classes don't lack for anything. THAT is the problem, and that's what kills diversity. If you have any knowledge about the game at all your gear and skill bars practically set themselves up. Boooooriiiing.

I agree that every class should lack a tool, although I don't think more useful weapon skills would solve hybridization/class diversity.

The problem with hybridization is, imo, moreso that the devs released it and then almost entirely stopped balancing abilities. The game desperately needs a single patch that goes through and buffs almost all of the lesser-used morphs. Hybridization killed diversity because when every build can use either morph of any skill, skill morphs need to be comparable with each other for your choices to matter. Otherwise everyone will just always go with the better one.

I do agree with that. And I do think hybridization played a part. But still I think the ongoing cry for all class skills to be superior to all non-class skills is equally to blame. Yes, almost every NB is using Concealed instead of Surprise. Because they aren't quite equal. But I bet you can find more NBs using Surprise than you can find using Wrecking Blow and Rapid Strikes put together. And that's my point.

Admittedly not a fantastic point because the NB spammable has always been good. But hopefully you take my meaning anyway.

If a few weapon abilities were equal to the best corresponding class abilities then you'd see more build diversity, hybridization or no. And you might also see classes with lesser toolsets still being able to compete.

It was years ago when I first noticed people asking for class abilities to be better. Hybridization, in a weird way, was one answer to that problem. The other answer was, of course, some class skills got buffed. The classes with the buffed skills are all now largely the same. Go figure.

Who got their class skills buffed? DK, NB, and Warden. Who didn't? Templar, sorc, and Necro. Which group is woefully powercrept and needs adjustment? And which group cries themselves to sleep?

If weapon abilities were better then sorc Templar and Necro might be better. And NB DK and Warden might be more diverse.

What even are some non-class skills that are so good most people use them? Ele Sus. Vigor. RaT. Force Pulse. Is that it? Of those-- being honest-- the first 3 need adjustment probably because they really are ubiquitous and overperform. Not Force Pulse though. It is actually very cool and unique that, depending on your class-enchants-traits-andgear, a weapon spammable becomes better than some class spammables.

There should be more examples of this.

Turtle_Bot

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

That line of thinking is why so many people think hybridization killed class diversity. They somehow don't also remember that when weapon skills were actually useful two characters of the same class could be differentiated by the weapons and skills they use.

It's okay for not every class to have an execute. Go get one. This creates diversity. It's okay if every class doesn't have a spammable. Go get one. This creates choices-- which creates diversity.

In my way of thinking every class should lack 1 important tool that they have to get from elsewhere. Not only does this create diversity but it also creates a rock-paper-scissors feel where every class can counter one class.

Instead, now, we have 3 or 4 classes noticably better than the rest and there's nothing a piece of paper can do against that rock. Why are they better? Because their class skills are better of course. Why can't a Necro compete? Because they're the paper. And the only thing they can use, no matter what weapon they equip or guild they grind, is more paper.

The 4 rock classes don't lack for anything. THAT is the problem, and that's what kills diversity. If you have any knowledge about the game at all your gear and skill bars practically set themselves up. Boooooriiiing.

I agree that every class should lack a tool, although I don't think more useful weapon skills would solve hybridization/class diversity.

The problem with hybridization is, imo, moreso that the devs released it and then almost entirely stopped balancing abilities. The game desperately needs a single patch that goes through and buffs almost all of the lesser-used morphs. Hybridization killed diversity because when every build can use either morph of any skill, skill morphs need to be comparable with each other for your choices to matter. Otherwise everyone will just always go with the better one.

I just wish the classes only lacked 1 singular tool. It would help balance a lot.

This is another part of the reason sorc, plar and cro are behind the rest.

• Sorc lacks both a spammable and defensive healing and mitigation options. Healing issue is mitigated in PvE where combat is slower which allows shields and HoTs to fill this gap, which also somewhat helps with mitigation issues.
• Plar lacks upfront damage and burst outside of execute. This could easily be fixed with some tweaks, but then beam would need adjusting/reworks.
• Cro is just lacking and that comes from not having a real direction for the class. It has decent bulk and healing, but its spammable is wonky to use, it has no pressure despite having passives for it and it's burst has horrible (drunk) AI that makes it unreliable at best.
• Warden lacks a spammable, but has everything else (its burst and the pressure from chilled generally makes up for the lack of built in execute).
• Arc technically (theoretically) lacks in straight burst, but its pressure more than makes up for this. It's also the newest class, so some level of additional power is expected to sell it.
• DK is supposed to lack sustain, but we all know the truth here.
• NB is supposed to be squishy, but we have all seen the brawler blades running around cyro right now and the "gank"blades that seem to also have infinite healing despite being "glass cannons" with extreme mobility.

It's why there's so many MDW + WoF + vate or crushing + draugrkin builds running around right now. Both of these builds provide a reliable spammable with additional pressure which solves the following for Sorc, Plar and Cro respectively.

• Allows sorcs offensive healing to actually have some effect because it has a lot of long-duration/multi-damage instances that give many chances to crit and proc sorcs HoT, but sorc still lacks a reliable burst heal (the shields don't cut it in their current "temporary max health increase only with no other utility" versions) due to the nerfing of the resto staff in U34.
• Provides a lot of upfront damage and pressure that allows plars the chance to get foes into execute range for beam to do its thing, but the burst is still lacking without a dedicated build (meteor/javelin combo).
• Provides Cro with a reliable spammable + lots of DoT pressure that synergizes with the classes passives, but it still lacks the burst due to the horrible blast bones AI (hence why Cro still feels lacking) and an execute.

A lot needs to be done to fix this imbalance, but a good start would be to simply have all classes have 1 specific weakness only, then have 1 weapon line dedicated to partially fixing that weakness.
For example:
- Sorcs weakness would be mitigation, but sword and board would help with that.
- NBs weakness would be healing, but the resto would help with that.
- Plars weakness would be burst, but the 2h line would help with that.
- DKs weakness would be sustain, but the destro line would help with that (ele drain).
- Wardens weakness would be a spammable, but the DW line helps with that.
- Cros weakness would be mobility but the bow line helps with that.

These are only hypothetical examples, but these are examples where you could have weaknesses and strengths built in to the classes to allow for diversity with differing weapons that can be used to either reduce the classes weakness, or build more into the classes strengths, but also facilitate real balance because classes would be roughly equal in power (within 5%), but would also be good and bad against other classes meaning if one class becomes too popular, players can switch to the 1-2 classes that are naturally good against it and it will fall off again. It creates a somewhat self balancing meta by having this. Something that we used to have many years ago when classes were more closely balanced than they currently are.

Anyway, back on topic, having rapid be closer in base tooltip to vigor would help provide a choice in what to run. Vigor would likely still be chosen by most classes due to minor resolve, but for classes that already have that buff (e.g. magsorc with bound aegis) they could choose rapid as their self-HoT instead.

OBJnoob

If anybody running rapid regen really wanted to avoid using Vigor but still have minor resolve all they'd need to do is slot blessing of restoration. Particularly in the case of sorcs, because while they have multiple passives that function similarly to HoTs what they don't have is a burst heal.

The reason why they don't do this has little to do with Vigor and more to do with Ele Sus-- because sorcs don't have access to breach either, so most backbar Destro instead of resto.

Tying the conversations together now-- the resto skill line has largely fallen out of style BECAUSE most class kits just don't need it. You can blame Vigor if you want to... You'd be 50% right... But there's still the other 50.

In the end I maintain that since there are so few stam heals in the game it's okay that the one available to all is strong. It certainly doesn't point to a stam dominance in PvP. Quite to the contrary-- I bet most people love the fact that it costs stam because they are largely mag dependent and appreciate a chance to use the other resource.

El_Borracho

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Regeneration: Reduced the healing per tick of this ability and its morphs by 40%.

Rapid Regeneration (morph): This morph now also increases healing done by up to 50% on targets under 100% Health.

ZOS nerf hammered Regegenration. The numbers for it compared to Vigor are horrible because of that change.

Agree, Rapid Regen is trash. The resistance Vigor adds stops enemies from burning through the heal enough that you can survive, unlike Rapid Regen

SandandStars

Does anyone ever slot rr? Does it work for any class/build vs bbar Ice staff with vigor?

Does it seen like resto staff got left behind with magsorc?

AcadianPaladin

I remember when resto was pretty good. Regen lasted 20 seconds and Springs could be stacked multiple times. No more. It really does need some love. My OakenHealplar runs a lightning staff now. . . .

SandandStars

OBJnoob wrote: »

If anybody running rapid regen really wanted to avoid using Vigor but still have minor resolve all they'd need to do is slot blessing of restoration.

Resolving Vigor costs 2984
Blessing of Restoration costs 4860, and you have to equip a resto staff

I’ve tried using Blessing of R as a burst heal on my magsorc, and in addition to costing significantly more, you have to barswap to hit your Burst Heal, and that little maneuver in pvp conditions can spell doom 🦨

Admittedly, I struggle on my magsorc, but I still think rapid regen needs more utility. Single heal + 5% reduced dmg from players for 10sec would make it more viable. I still probably wouldn’t use it, just because swapping bars to hit your burst heal doesn’t seem to work well for me.

I have a wireless router that sits around 85 ms ping..,