Will ZOS ever nerf Master’s Dual Wield/Stinging Slashes?

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well... To those of you that replied to me... You are making sense, so fear not, I am understanding what you tell me. And I agree that Ele Sus is the main pain point.

Still, I don't like flat damage values. It's basically what was always wrong with procs... Then they changed almost all of them... And now we're here discussing the ones they didn't change. Doesn't that kinda say it all?

If you want good DoT pressure then you should be on a damage spec using DoTs. Not on a whatever spec using procs. And I'm not against procs... They should just scale to reflect the power of your toon. I understand that DoTs were nerfed and so everyone feels shoehorned into using all this stuff in order to kill... But that's not really justification, is it? It's just the other half of the problem.

For what it's worth I really liked @Vaqual last post. Something like that would be nice.

Vate destro does scale, so I'll assume you're talking about MDW and sets like draugrkin and DA.

MDW is a flat damage bonus that doesn't scale because it already effects an ability that scales with your stats. Masters 2h is the same way. So making MDW scale depending on weapon damage would make it so...you'd have stat scaling on an item that affects an ability that already scales with your stats, which I'd imagine might cause funny coding issues. The obvious issue with ability DOTs not doing too much damage with stats is because ZOS wanted to "narrow the gap" when it came to PVE dps so they unfortunately simplified it by lowering the DPS while increasing the duration. So unless they revert that, players are reliant on other means of trying to create pressure builds for PvP.

Flat damage modifiers have always existed since the beginning of the game, so I don't really have an issue with them existing either way; it adds another way in which to build your character. Ball groups which are basically dominating cyro aren't using these flat damage sets and they aren't getting killed by them either. You seem to support ball group gameplay (from other threads) and the force amplifier group sets and skills that they use to dominate cyro, but I do find it a bit odd how some of these other sets that are better used solo or in small scale are considered too problematic and shouldn't exist.

Vaqual

Arcanasx wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well... To those of you that replied to me... You are making sense, so fear not, I am understanding what you tell me. And I agree that Ele Sus is the main pain point.

Still, I don't like flat damage values. It's basically what was always wrong with procs... Then they changed almost all of them... And now we're here discussing the ones they didn't change. Doesn't that kinda say it all?

If you want good DoT pressure then you should be on a damage spec using DoTs. Not on a whatever spec using procs. And I'm not against procs... They should just scale to reflect the power of your toon. I understand that DoTs were nerfed and so everyone feels shoehorned into using all this stuff in order to kill... But that's not really justification, is it? It's just the other half of the problem.

For what it's worth I really liked @Vaqual last post. Something like that would be nice.

Vate destro does scale, so I'll assume you're talking about MDW and sets like draugrkin and DA.

MDW is a flat damage bonus that doesn't scale because it already effects an ability that scales with your stats. Masters 2h is the same way. So making MDW scale depending on weapon damage would make it so...you'd have stat scaling on an item that affects an ability that already scales with your stats, which I'd imagine might cause funny coding issues. The obvious issue with ability DOTs not doing too much damage with stats is because ZOS wanted to "narrow the gap" when it came to PVE dps so they unfortunately simplified it by lowering the DPS while increasing the duration. So unless they revert that, players are reliant on other means of trying to create pressure builds for PvP.

Flat damage modifiers have always existed since the beginning of the game, so I don't really have an issue with them existing either way; it adds another way in which to build your character. Ball groups which are basically dominating cyro aren't using these flat damage sets and they aren't getting killed by them either. You seem to support ball group gameplay (from other threads) and the force amplifier group sets and skills that they use to dominate cyro, but I do find it a bit odd how some of these other sets that are better used solo or in small scale are considered too problematic and shouldn't exist.

MDW remained the same while too many things changed around it, making it the single most effective damage per set slot on all builds below a certain WD threshold, with high ease of application and 0 penalty for overwriting the dot early.

I would not conflate this with Master 2h, ignoring the target scaling and generally different use cases, it requires you to spam it to gain the benefit.

By not requiring you to spam the ability for maximum effect you are guaranteed at least 100 % uptime of the set benefit (or more by dotting up multiple targets), but it also grants its full benefit in combination with other abilities. Substantial damage sources that can be lined up in singular GCDs being the holy grail in PvP, make this set the mathematically best option in countless scenarios. And this is leaving out all other previously mentioned benefits of dual wield and the uniquely suitable passives of the dual wield line for PvP.

IZZEFlameLash

No, it’s just fine as is

Arcanasx wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

You should also consider that Nbs have concealed weapon, which is the best spammable in the game, and Dks have whip; both morphs are very good. These are instant melee spammables. These classes also happen to be doing very well in PvP partially because they actually have a reliable melee spammable that comes with their class kit. If you think the added DOT pressure from MDW is problematic, it really isn't with how high the current TTK is these days. Meanwhile, those same classes also tend to backbar an ice staff with elemental susceptibility far more than you see them spam rending slashes, at least on PCNA.

Stinging slashes itself has not been updated in about 40 months, and the last change they made for it to do "spammable" levels of damage is actually intended. Nerfing it because its become more common as a result of changes being made throughout the last few years that has lead to an overall increase in TTK, which has then also caused cast time spammables like dizzy swing to lose much of its burst potency, is silly, and would end up creating more problems that it solves.

High TTK is already an issue. Crazy stacked cross-healing is an issue. Undeath is an issue. Getting spammed and status effect stacked by multiple elemental susceptibilities from a distance at a free cost can also be an issue. All a nerf like this would do is make NBs and DKs stronger because they aren't as reliant on MDW, and push other classes into using ranged setups. It would also cause the TTK to increase even more. Anyone who actually believes that we're in an oppressive high damage meta (outside of getting absolutely zerged) is either a relatively new player with a lack of experience of what the games TTK used to be like, misses pre-nerf mara's balm, or has amnesia, because the overall TTK used to be much lower years ago.

The MDW bonus itself was also more potent years ago than it is today, especially when combined with pre-nerfed DOT builds. They gave everyone a free 1000 weapon/spell damage with CP 2.0 which brought ability damage buffs and an even greater healing buff (because healing doesn't get mitigated as much as damage does) which hasn't benefited MDW's unchanged flat damage bonus at all. Yet people weren't complaining about MDW nearly as much back then because there were other effective options and playstyles available. So instead of focusing on nerfing offensive options that currently work, how about we actually bring other offensive options up to par again.

For other arena weapons, look at BRP 2H for example; its completely outclassed and made mostly pointless by Masters 2H. Maybe giving it the weapon damage bonus that they were going to give maelstrom 2H before they changed it to a direct damage bonus would help. Rework maelstrom DW so it has a bonus that actually buffs itself. Add a bonus to maelstrom SnB where light attacking increases the damage of heroic strike/deep slash so you can have that as another spammable option again like before; they might as well because they've already given ice staves offensive options. Give flame and shock reach the frost reach treatment too so ranged magicka builds have more spammable options available, as well as making masters destro more viable.

Offensive "power creep" might be a necessity to help combat the defensive power creep that's been taking place over the last few years if they won't otherwise directly address that defensive power creep that they've created. It would also be really nice if more instant melee spammables were introduced. So having a 5pc set on the FB and another on the BB becomes a more viable setup for classes currently lacking a good and reliable melee spammable, because only using one arena weapon with two 5pc sets means having to sacrifice either your monster 2pc or a mythic, along with missing out on 1pc trainee.

Remember when bleed used to ignore physical resistances? Lol that was when Master's DW was at its peak. Combined with axes proccing its own strong bleed.

I do. I believe that was also when DOT ticks were at 1 second intervals too and I remember being able to see chunks of health being removed by old masters DW with axes lol. Was particularly brutal when stacked with old defile and other DOT abilities when they actually did good damage as well. I also remember old reverb back when it had a 30% defile; which ironically did more pressure than today's MDW. Or old wrecking blow with the knock up stun that could set up easy 20k plus ult combos back when the average health pool was 22-25k.

Which makes you wonder how a lot of these players today who think "MDW does too much pressure plz nerf" would react had they actually played or remembered how the game was back then.

Yeah, lol. MDW these days are nothing. MDW boosted Twin Slashes and its morphs are not really the killer by themselves. Most of the times, I can tank MDW and Vate combo. But it gets definitely harder when there are other proc sets are involved. Something tells me these arena sets aren't really the OP. Do they enable a playstyle? Yes. 'MDW and Vate staff op' threads are quite few patches late imo.

It really does seem players are too focused on what they see on death recaps and consider it stale, and that they havn't fully considered the opportunity costs as well. They likely havn't experienced or don't remember what a true DOT meta feels like either.

I'm pretty sure those who are using MDW with rending slashes are primarily using it as a reliable spammable instead of as a DOT. If classes like sorc, arc, warden and necro actually had proper and basic single target, instant cast melee spammables, they could replace rending slashes with that class spammable. Then they could benefit from an offensive 5pc set on the front bar instead, while also utlilizing their class passives. Which could not only buff the spammable that already does spammable levels of damage, but also everything else as well. Or replace it with another "proc" set for more damage on top.

I also think most players using vate destro look at it this way: I might as well use vate destro to go with my elemental susceptibility. Instead of, I really want to use vate destro, so I'll slot elemental susceptibility because I have to use it to activate it.

Yeah, agreed totally. Couldn't have said this better.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

@Arcanasx

Arcanasx wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well... To those of you that replied to me... You are making sense, so fear not, I am understanding what you tell me. And I agree that Ele Sus is the main pain point.

Still, I don't like flat damage values. It's basically what was always wrong with procs... Then they changed almost all of them... And now we're here discussing the ones they didn't change. Doesn't that kinda say it all?

If you want good DoT pressure then you should be on a damage spec using DoTs. Not on a whatever spec using procs. And I'm not against procs... They should just scale to reflect the power of your toon. I understand that DoTs were nerfed and so everyone feels shoehorned into using all this stuff in order to kill... But that's not really justification, is it? It's just the other half of the problem.

For what it's worth I really liked @Vaqual last post. Something like that would be nice.

Vate destro does scale, so I'll assume you're talking about MDW and sets like draugrkin and DA.

MDW is a flat damage bonus that doesn't scale because it already effects an ability that scales with your stats. Masters 2h is the same way. So making MDW scale depending on weapon damage would make it so...you'd have stat scaling on an item that affects an ability that already scales with your stats, which I'd imagine might cause funny coding issues. The obvious issue with ability DOTs not doing too much damage with stats is because ZOS wanted to "narrow the gap" when it came to PVE dps so they unfortunately simplified it by lowering the DPS while increasing the duration. So unless they revert that, players are reliant on other means of trying to create pressure builds for PvP.

Flat damage modifiers have always existed since the beginning of the game, so I don't really have an issue with them existing either way; it adds another way in which to build your character. Ball groups which are basically dominating cyro aren't using these flat damage sets and they aren't getting killed by them either. You seem to support ball group gameplay (from other threads) and the force amplifier group sets and skills that they use to dominate cyro, but I do find it a bit odd how some of these other sets that are better used solo or in small scale are considered too problematic and shouldn't exist.

Well, with regard to the other thread and all... I mostly just don't think heal stacking is that egregious. I have said, there, that it's the force multiplier of so many group buffs that's a bigger culprit. That was a while ago. Most recently though I've been there suggesting reducing group size. So. It isn't exactly like I just love GvG and don't want solos to have a chance.

Returning to this topic now. What it IS, for me, is that I run around solo. And on my platform, Xbox NA, it isn't that hard to find a solo or smallscale fight if you actively avoid your own alliances zerg. And whenever I run into other solo/smallscale they're all spamming Rending Slashes on me, LOL.

But I hear what you all are saying. I agree some other things may be amiss.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

OBJnoob wrote: »

@Arcanasx

Arcanasx wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well... To those of you that replied to me... You are making sense, so fear not, I am understanding what you tell me. And I agree that Ele Sus is the main pain point.

Still, I don't like flat damage values. It's basically what was always wrong with procs... Then they changed almost all of them... And now we're here discussing the ones they didn't change. Doesn't that kinda say it all?

If you want good DoT pressure then you should be on a damage spec using DoTs. Not on a whatever spec using procs. And I'm not against procs... They should just scale to reflect the power of your toon. I understand that DoTs were nerfed and so everyone feels shoehorned into using all this stuff in order to kill... But that's not really justification, is it? It's just the other half of the problem.

For what it's worth I really liked @Vaqual last post. Something like that would be nice.

Vate destro does scale, so I'll assume you're talking about MDW and sets like draugrkin and DA.

MDW is a flat damage bonus that doesn't scale because it already effects an ability that scales with your stats. Masters 2h is the same way. So making MDW scale depending on weapon damage would make it so...you'd have stat scaling on an item that affects an ability that already scales with your stats, which I'd imagine might cause funny coding issues. The obvious issue with ability DOTs not doing too much damage with stats is because ZOS wanted to "narrow the gap" when it came to PVE dps so they unfortunately simplified it by lowering the DPS while increasing the duration. So unless they revert that, players are reliant on other means of trying to create pressure builds for PvP.

Flat damage modifiers have always existed since the beginning of the game, so I don't really have an issue with them existing either way; it adds another way in which to build your character. Ball groups which are basically dominating cyro aren't using these flat damage sets and they aren't getting killed by them either. You seem to support ball group gameplay (from other threads) and the force amplifier group sets and skills that they use to dominate cyro, but I do find it a bit odd how some of these other sets that are better used solo or in small scale are considered too problematic and shouldn't exist.

Well, with regard to the other thread and all... I mostly just don't think heal stacking is that egregious. I have said, there, that it's the force multiplier of so many group buffs that's a bigger culprit. That was a while ago. Most recently though I've been there suggesting reducing group size. So. It isn't exactly like I just love GvG and don't want solos to have a chance.

Returning to this topic now. What it IS, for me, is that I run around solo. And on my platform, Xbox NA, it isn't that hard to find a solo or smallscale fight if you actively avoid your own alliances zerg. And whenever I run into other solo/smallscale they're all spamming Rending Slashes on me, LOL.

But I hear what you all are saying. I agree some other things may be amiss.

I think heal stacking would be more tolerable if most players weren't undeathpires and if they'd also implement more diminishing returns to group buff sets like rallying cry currently does. One of the major problems with undeath is that it completely skews the foundation of balance for PvP. For example if there was ever a patch where the undeath passive become unintentionally bugged and stopped working, it would completely change the way PvP would feel. The healing reduction through battle spirit probably wouldn't have to be more than the damage reduction at that point, which has actually been hurting solo and smallscale players more than it hurts ball groups. We'd probably see more "stat balanced" builds still being able to reasonably secure kills without having to go full damage to kill tanky players. Basically there's a lot of potential changes that could happen.

Now, to me its quite straightforward why we see rending slashes being used more as a spammable than we did years ago. Back before hybridization and CP 2.0 with the stat inflation it brought, many stamina builds were basically shoehorned into using 2h. Now to keep it short, those changes made using DW far more of a viable option than what it was previously because now those stamina focused builds weren't as reliant on rally for their major brutality buff and burst heal, and dizzy swing as their spammable and OB stun now. Before dizzy swing was meta for stam, they were using wrecking blow for a time, but even before that, many stamina builds were using heroic slash as a spammable back when it actually was a proper spammable. One of the major benefits of having an instant cast spammable is that its easier to use, its more reliable, its more consistent damage as its less likely to be blocked or dodged, and it allows you to block cast with it.

And the same is true for MDW. Given the choice between old wrecking blow and old heroic slash, I'd say the majority preferred using heroic strike, for the same reasons that I've listed. So it should come to no surprise that we see MDW being used as much as it is by melee builds, especially from the classes lacking a proper instant cast melee spammable. Theoretically, if they gave rending slashes and blood craze a cast time but slightly increased the damage of the abilities themselves to compensate for that cast time, I'm pretty sure you'd see less players use MDW rending slashes because the cast time would remove the main reasons why people are using it as a spammable in the first place.

So seeing MDW used as much as it is might be somewhat stale, but it doesn't really bother me because its just a symptom of larger underlying issues that haven't been addressed for years. There really needs to be more viable alternative spammables implemented that can compete with MDW to increase build diversity, instead of trying to nerf or remove spammable options that currently work because otherwise its just going to create more problems than it solves. It will also further reinforce which classes are able to brawl, and which classes that have to play ranged builds in order to be competitive.

SandandStars

So let’s say nerfing Undeath does more to shake up the dull current meta than Masters DW/Vatesh and encourage more dynamic, diverse builds (my wish for pvp) — maybe it would.

I worry that ZOS’s vision (I use this term loosely) for pvp is precisely a tanky meta, with the motive being to attract more new players to pvp if they can slap on a cookie cutter dk/undeath build and not get insta-killed by pros.

So, I hazard a guess that it’s less likely they’ll adjust Undeath (or cross heals) than something more offensive (and braindead) than vatesh or masters dw.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

@SandandStars I think you may be right. The thing is this kinda leaves me out in the cold. I'm not a new player by any means-- but I have always been a devoted PvPer. I don't have a max crafter because that's boring to me. I don't do master writs every day so I don't have any money. I don't do a lot of dungeons so I don't always have the best sets. And I don't do arenas because I'd rather be PvPing.

ARE they helping new players by doing what they're doing? Or are they specifically helping long-time PvE players transition to PvP, but hurting NEW players most of all? How would a brand new player have arena weapons? How would a new player craft themselves Daedric Trickery or Dragons Appetite?

All the currently really good PvP stuff comes from... Somewhere else. And I, as a very experienced PvP player, find myself on par with ACTUAL noobs and well behind PvE officianados that came to PvP with all their PvE toys.

How does that help new people? How does that help PvPers?

Don't get me wrong I can slap rallying cry and way of fire (or whatever,) on most of my toons and kill most people that aren't as experienced as me. Skill still matters. But anybody that knows what they're doing and has these tools I don't have (aka not new players at all,) are just too tanky to finish off while at the same time doing enough damage where-- okay, I can maybe survive one or two of them-- but fighting outnumbered is hard to do. There's too much "free" damage incoming, and it takes too long to finish targets off.

So. While I realize most of this rant is kinda just my own personal problem... I feel it is nevertheless unhealthy for the game in general to propose that the best way to play is by being very tanky and outsourcing means of free, unscaled, proc damage.

It doesn't help new players. And it doesn't help people that only PvP.

@Arcanasx I don't want to say much about about the ballgroups topic here... I've already said enough elsewhere.

The thing is though that now adays most classes have a spammable. I understand that some are a little janky for whatever reason but they do have one. And since almost everyone is a vampire now there is also that perfectly decent spammable to use. I therefore disagree with your reasons for why people use MDW as a spammable.

Rending Slashes is NOT a spammable. It's a DoT. People use it as a spammable because it saves them a bar slot from having to use a real spammable. Because it's a good way to proc enchants and status effects, including hemorrhaging, and because it does decent damage no matter how they are built. And this last part, especially, is why it is unbalanced.

SandandStars

OBJnoob wrote: »

Because it's [Masters DW] a good way to proc enchants and status effects, including hemorrhaging, and because it does decent damage no matter how they are built. And this last part, especially, is why it is unbalanced.

@OBJnoob , you nailed it here. This is why I think MDW is a significant component of the current tanky meta. PvP is saturated with super-tanky builds relying on MDW for damage they wouldn’t be able to get any other way (excepting Merciless or Corrosive).

I think this has been overlooked and underestimated by those saying MDW isn’t a “win button” and doesn’t do much damage, etc. That’s not really the point.

The point is it enables you to do viable/similar damage to other builds that have spent a 5 pc offensive set to attain.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

@OBJnoob

If you think nerfing or removing MDW as a spammable option will somehow tone down the tank meta because you think it contributes to it, I don't know what else to say. Players dropping MDW for either dizzy swing, or for class spammables like warden birds, necro skulls, or arc runeblades isnt going to help reduce the tank meta, its going to make it worse. Investing into flat damage is just increasing your damage, its not making you tankier. How would replacing MDW for rallying cry (while potentially losing a good spammable) combat the tank meta in any way? Is MDW good for increasing your healing? "You can be tanky and do damage with flat damage sets" sounds just like "You can be tanky and do damage with penetration sets." And the major disadvantage with a lot of these flat damage sets is they don't do much at all for your harder hitting abilities including your ultimate's, so its not as "free" as you think it is.

Using MDW rending slashes takes up the same amount of bar space as using another spammable, so I'm not sure what your point is there. Using it as a spammable also means often refreshing the DOT before the first tick, so you're not getting as much of a benefit from the DOT than you think you would.

The vamp spammable costs magicka instead of stamina, and pushes you into having a high health pool. What other instant cast melee spammable that costs stamina is there? It matters because resource recoveries are still separated. It also further pushes players into becoming undeathpires with 40k plus health, which is a major problem in PvP right now. And saying "just use the vamp spammable if you need one" is as helpful as "just use MDW rending slashes if you need a spammable."

The reason why it can feel like there's a lot of damage in outnumbered fights is because not only does battle spirit reduce your own healing more than it reduces your damage, but cross healing (otherwise known as free healing) is also still an issue. Combined with the kind of tanky buffers that players have access to, like 40k health and undeath, it has become easier than previously to overwhelm an outnumbered opponent because you can afford to play more aggressively while stat inflated cross healing can take care of your survivability.

In other words, your HPS is getting overwhelmed by their combined DPS, while your DPS struggles to make a dent into their inflated HPS because of all cross healing that's available. On top of this, undeath makes securing kills a lot more difficult, especially with inflated cross healing involved. Being unable to remove players from a fight when they have a large combined DPS advantage over your HPS in a meta where burst capability isn't what it used to be, means you're going to eventually die by attrition. The last true DOT meta we actually had was during the Malacath DOT meta, where seeing syvarras, venomous smite, unleashed terror, sheer venom, old maelstrom 2h, oblivions foe, etc, was a very common sight and far more oppressive than what we have today in terms of pressure. Yet 1vx or winning outnumbered fights was more of a possibility back then than it is today, because players back then were also much easier to kill. Purge was also very strong back then, because those sets had cooldowns while elemental susceptibility spam doesn't and its free. Even dizzy swing was more useful back then because burst setups were more effective in taking out chunks of health and securing kills at the time.

Update 26. About 43 months ago:



Rending slashes is supposed to become a spammable when used with MDW. It also comes with a DOT because you're paying the opportunity cost of having to slot an arena weapon instead of a 5pc offensive set, that can be used to further buff a spammable that already does spammable levels of damage, and everything else on that bar. There's no arena weapon that you need to make concealed weapon and whip good spammables. Its not "free" at all, because there's an opportunity cost. Can you really say that such a set was responsible for helping to cause a tank meta back then? Were you actually playing the game at the time? Meanwhile, the majority of stamina builds were still using dizzy swing at that time, not MDW.

Miracle19

No, it’s just fine as is

OBJnoob wrote: »

@CameraBeardThePirate But don't you think that if instances of flat damage were nerfed then people wouldn't be able to build so tanky (and still have damage,) and then the meta would shift back to where burst was king again and whatever little DoT damage could be tacked on top was actually sufficient?

Impossible. It would just widen the gap of those who are able to and those who aren’t. Sets like draugrkin and dragons apetite are entry level sets to being able to deal damage while being tanky. The only way is to completely remove procs all together, which we all know would make pvp very very stale.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

Miracle19 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@CameraBeardThePirate But don't you think that if instances of flat damage were nerfed then people wouldn't be able to build so tanky (and still have damage,) and then the meta would shift back to where burst was king again and whatever little DoT damage could be tacked on top was actually sufficient?

Impossible. It would just widen the gap of those who are able to and those who aren’t. Sets like draugrkin and dragons apetite are entry level sets to being able to deal damage while being tanky. The only way is to completely remove procs all together, which we all know would make pvp very very stale.

I'm not sure why draugrkin and dragons appetite exist separately in your mind from MDW. The benefits of using them in tandem is obvious. If draugrkin and dragons appetite are entry level sets to doing damage while being tanky then obviously MDW is too.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

This idea that the current flat damage sets are somehow contributing to a tanky meta more than it being a reactive way of fighting against it is absurd. If that were the case, then the Malacath DOT meta which was the last true pressure meta that we had, would have meant that all of those flat, no scaling DOT sets that the majority of PvP players eventually began using were somehow contributing to a "tanky meta", and that obviously wasn't the case. It was in fact a low TTK meta, where players were constantly being melted, often from a distance. Its even more ridiculous when you realize that near invincible ball groups are not using these sets or being killed by them either.

Undeath, group buff stat inflation, heals and shields that scale from max health, over the top cross healing stacking, and a ranged, no resource costing major breach ability that also has burning, brittle, and concussed, that can be combined with a defensive ice staff, which almost any build can effectively use, are the common denominators here for making "tank builds that do damage."

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

@Arcanasx

So... I didn't forget about you. You obviously put a lot of thought into that one big post and I want you to know I did read it. I decided to respond to Miracle instead because it was just easier. I had gotten home from a company Christmas party last night and I was somewhere between still buzzed and already hungover lol.

But listen. I feel you getting a little heated over there. You're calling things ridiculous, suggesting if someone thinks X then there's nothing you can tell them, wondering how long I've been playing, and still trying pretty hard to tie this discussion into the Ballgroups discussion.

I'm not going to take part in all that. I'm just not. I keep telling you guys/gals that I hear what you're telling me. I have not been unmoving. It just so happens I'm not as big a fan of the MDW as you are. That doesn't mean we 100% disagree. That just means I think 1 more thing is a problem than you. We almost agree, don't you see?

After this discussion I can agree that MDW isn't the worst thing. Ele Sus, the skill, is perhaps the most overperforming and overabundant thing right now, and it contributes to the "free damage while being tanky," discussion because it does so much at no cost while beckoning everyone over to using an ice staff.

See? I can learn. I can agree.

Thing is I still see MDW and draugrkin to be a problem. If you can slap an arena weapon on an otherwise tanky build in order to get a DPS level spammable, DPS level DoT, and apply 3 status effects (two of which, from weapon enchants, probably turning into 2 more DoTs,) then i still think it's kinda "inappropriate." I don't mind the skill... I don't mind the weird status effect meta we're in (well, maybe I do, but it's okay it's interesting,) but I do think it'd make more sense if it scaled. It could have the exact same power, on a DPS build, and I would be fine with that.

Draugrkin I feel has the same problem but to a slightly lesser degree. You spoke about opportunity costs to use MDW... And I recognize that there is one, I just don't think it's that big. It's only two slots. Meaning there's still plenty of ways to tank up, if you so choose, to rely on MDW's free damage. Draugrkin at least is a 5-piece so you really need to build into it and around it.

But I'm not suggesting this is THE problem with the game. I realize DoTs were gutted. I realize Undeath is bullcrap. I realize we need to pop this ballooning HP problem. And ballgroups probably need some adjustment.

But the fact that you find ballgroups to be the most problematic thing... And ballgroups don't use MDW... Isn't necessarily a good defense of it. If anything it seems off-topic to me. Yes there is a very powerful meta in the Group community right now. There is also a very powerful meta in the Solo community right now. I'm here to discuss the latter, as that's how the title directs me.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

@OBJnoob

I've been getting slightly annoyed at how casually the "its free damage" and "enables tanks to do damage" notions have often been selectively applied because it often doesn't take into account the whole picture.

I'd say the opportunity cost to use MDW as a spammable is more than people realize, because it often means you're going to be replacing a 5pc offensive set on the front bar. Practically your choices for using MDW means you're either going to sacrifice a 5pc set, a monster 2pc or a mythic. Since a monster 2pc and mythics are usually too good to not use, people tend to sacrifice the 5pc set because that way, you can slot another arena weapon on the other bar and add some trainee pcs as well. If you decided to use two 5pc sets with it anyways, you could be sacrificing 2pc monster sets like balorghs, jerral's and bloodspawn, or replacing mythics like Markyn, DDF and SSC. This is how people should be practically looking at it from an opportunity cost comparison, not that its just a 2pc set.

In other words, MDW being called "free damage" isn't accurate because you need to compare it to what you could have gotten if you were not to slot it. Rending slashes and blood craze IMO, aren't good abilities by themselves without MDW, so that also means having to replace another ability that you otherwise would get more use of had you not been using MDW. I also take issue with the "allows you to be tanky while doing damage" notion because by using MDW which is a purely offensive set, you could be replacing a potentially defensive set that you could fit on your character, like pariah, aetherial ascension, trial by fire, or sustain sets like wretched vitality, because not using another offensive set with MDW means you're still generally going to lack damage against tankier targets. So when someone decides to use MDW, a purely offensive set, even if they already decided to use a defensive monster or 5pc set they're not going to be nearly as tanky as they could have been and they're actually making a more "balanced" build between the offensive and defensive. Someone deciding to use draugrkin, dragon's appetite or way of fire for example, with MDW is someone making a damage focused character whos "tankiness" at that point is being provided by very easy to use and acquire with little downside bonuses like undeath, max health scaling healing, inflated cross healing, and a way too conveniently overloaded ability called elemental susceptibility that can be used as a defensive ice staff. These make up a large portion of the root issues behind PvP's current issues.

About the status effect spam, that's a side effect of MDW affecting a dual wield skill more than anything. Its not the only way to get status effect spam either. While elemental susceptibility also plays an even greater part in status effect spam, so can crushing shock/force pulse as well since its made up of three different damage types. Draugrkin which can be front barred which also allows another 5pc set on the back bar, also pairs better with crushing shock rather than MDW spam. You could also add your enchant, or use double DOT poisons so a light attack weave from a draugrkin crushing shock can provide up to 8-9 instances of damage to benefit from. And because its a ranged attack, it usually means its going to be more consistent too, as well as the flat damage bonus having a greater impact as staves don't have as much weapon/spell damage as DW. Meanwhile, dragon's appetite IMO is a lot more preferable for MDW builds over draugrkin. People need to also remember that dragon's appetite and draugrkin are barely going to buff your harder hitting abilities like your ultimate's, compared to raw weapon damage or penetration sets, so there's another trade off there.

It also makes sense that MDW and vate destro are going to be strong for solo and smallscale play because these sets are designed for single target pressure, so it should make sense that they're going to be good at it. Now, you can bring in more build diversity by toning down the overloaded elemental susceptibility, so people can start using something else for their back bar. You implement better melee spammables that aren't reliant on arena weapons such as rending slashes with MDW, just like whip and concealed weapon. So people have the choice to replace MDW with that spammable and make 5pc front bar and 5pc back bar setups more viable as a result, which will also bring more build diversity. They could also buff the other underused arena weapons as well to make them more attractive options.

I've been mentioning the ball groups, because how ballgroups currently function perfectly highlights the "tanks that can do good damage" notion more than anything else. I also wondered when you started playing, or started PvP, because it would've helped given me context because, at what time you start ESO tends to determine your where your frame of reference is.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

@Arcanasx Well I gotta give you that one. I don't really like the term "free damage" either, but I've seen it thrown around recently, and I guess I adopted it. So that's my bad. I didn't quite mean that.

I've been playing for about 6 years. Almost exclusively PvP. So I'm not part of the old guard beta testers but I've seen a lot of changes. I'm on console so I do somewhat rely on these forums for some of the finer points of combat... And I don't have as good a memory as some of you about what changes happened when or how exactly it was.

But I remember the Malacath DoT meta. I had been here quite a while already when that happened-- mythics are a NEW thing LOL.

I've said this before and I'll say it again now just to see if you agree with me at all: I think if I go back in my mind, it seems to me the problem started with the introduction of Balorghs monster set. It instantly became a staple of every build, and to some degree still is. It introduced the playstyle of turtling up between small burst windows. And just like now, with some of the things we're discussing, it both became a solution to a problem and it became the problem itself. If you could darn near fully penetrate every target when it really mattered, then you really didn't have to build for much pen at all. Which means you could tank up just a little more. And with everybody just a little more tanky, guess what, you couldn't really kill anyone without Balorghs.

Add to this things like Mechanical Acuity, both old and new, and things like Clever Alchemist, or just the fact with so many build options these days a lot of people backbar proc sets that carry over to front bar... The result is, often times, just a bunch of tanky brawlers slapping at eachother until their cheese lines up.

And different people have different definitions of cheese. Me, I'm an old school Ravenwatch player myself. From long before they tried to make it no-proc. I will admit I find a lot of things cheesy. My hey-day... When I was considered among some of the best (in Ravenwatch,) was when I was playing a Nord DK wearing Ancient Dragonguard and Bone Pirates. This was right after they changed the racial passives so Nord had ulti-gen I think. And well before the Corrosive, uh, abomination. And as I think back I must've been playing a long time before then too because I remember before Ancient Dragonguard was a thing. That may not even have been that long ago... I can't remember!

And now of course we have sets like Rallying Cry that offer extremely stat-dense sources of offense and defense. Mythics that offer major courage. Arena weapons offering acceptable levels of damage no matter what you surround it with. We have Undeath, and everybody running around with 35k health. Eesh.

It's easy to make an argument that any number of things has gone awry over the years. But Caluurions sticks in my mind as being one problem that got solved. Not so much in the change they made to IT-- but how problematic it was, and then how the response was to have all procs scale with offensive power. This took care of most of the "free damage" (haha,) and I think now we're mostly left talking about what didn't get changed.

So you have to forgive me for thinking that if it scaled it would be better... It seems to me that helped make all the other stuff better.

Dragons Appetite. I don't even think this set would be a problem if it weren't for MDW and Vat Destro and Ele Sus. It's a really cool idea for a set, and would fill a super cool niche void... Except the niche somehow became mainstream.

Also, on my radar, is when the combustion passive became a big deal for DKs. And obviously this coincided with a DK dominance that largely continues today. But it also woke some other classes up to the possibility of pumping status effects, not for sustain but for damage. Then comes a buffed charged trait. Then comes Glacial Presense Wardens wielding Ice Staffs. And obviously it was only a matter of time before Draugrkin and Force Pulse with a charged staff became a thing. OR... You guessed it, heavy attacking into Rending Slashes with MDW and a fire and poison enchant.

It's really all the same crap painted in different colors.

I don't necessarily mind that arena weapons be powerful. But if it's going to be powerful it shouldn't also be the best way to make use of everything else that's powerful. Maarselok says hello.

So, we can discuss what came first-- the chicken or the egg-- all day long. But I feel I have a decent grasp of the whole thing and how it plays together and why it's so strong. We may disagree on what the actual linchpin is or what exactly needs changing first. Heck, you may not even agree with anything I just said.

But when I imagine a DK wearing Daedric Trickery on the body, Maarselok monster set, MDW FB and Vate Ice backbar... With, I dunno, Agility jewelry... What comes to mind isn't "losing opportunity costs."

And I think you forgot that little bit. Yes, you may need to sacrifice a mythic. But the best way to make up for that is to use a 2nd arena weapon, LOL. And guess which one it's gonna be?

Solariken

No, balancing pvp combat is not a priority

I think the power level of Master DW is about right. The problem is that it's a flat damage that doesn't scale with offensive stats... So these high-resist high-health bots can run around getting kills with Rending Slashes without much survivability tradeoff.

But like @Arcanasx and others have mentioned, this is exacerbated by more egregious balance offenders like Ele Sus and Ice Staff + Undeath.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

@OBJnoob

So the part where you mentioned sets like balorghs allowing tank builds to do damage is also what's been on my mind as well. I'm fine with MDW setups because it allows more pressure based builds to compete with the other "cheese" builds that you have mentioned, plus more. I'd imagine a nerf to MDW would not only make NB and DK builds more dominant, but it will also push the other classes into using balorghs tank and spank burst builds, AOE bombing setups, become more tanky by replacing MDW with rallying cry, or they'll give up on melee and start using ranged builds, like relequen stam sorcs. Basically it might remove a playstyle without there being an alternative to replace it, and that's why I would prefer that they implement more viable choices rather than nerfing or gutting the sets that are currently working. Because IMO its really more of a "the meta is becoming stale" issue rather than a "its a major balance issue".

I'm aware that using one arena weapon pushes you into using another arena weapon because of how one arena weapon will limit your overall gear slot space. That's why we see MDW and vate destro paired together as much as it is because it also allows you to keep your monster 2pc and mythic with a 5pc set. I've mentioned that before in this thread but maybe I wasn't clear enough about that part in my last post. With the build you provided as an example, you could have replaced the 3rd agility piece with a mythic (like DDF) and then replaced the other agility pcs with 1 pc trainee and 1pc druids so you'd have a more stats, and then redistributed the attribute allocation to get the desired amount of max resource stats. Personally I think that would have made the build better as well, since you wouldn't have to sacrifice a mythic. Edit: the opportunity cost for this is sacrificing the 5pc set here. You could drop MDW and vate destro, put daedric trickery on the back bar and then use another 5pc set for the front bar. That could be rallying cry, or kynmarchers for example, which are very strong sets. You could then replace the MDW ability with another DK ability, which could be whip, deep breath or talons for example. Basically one build is better for single target pressure, but not necessarily that much better in a 1v1, the other build would be better for group play.

Caluurion's flat damage bonus was nerfed before proc scaling was introduced. The same should have been done for many of the great DOT set offenders during the Malacath meta IMO, instead of implementing proc scaling. My issue with proc scaling is that it actually gives players playing in larger groups or ball groups even more of an advantage because when utilized with group buff sets, it allows them to get much more value out of their "proc" damage sets far more than what a solo or small scale player could ever achieve. It's one of the reasons why ball groups have became even more dominant in cyro after proc scaling was implemented, and it isn't just stat inflation, because they now get to have these super charged proc damage sets that they can use for bursting, which then allows them to get away with running more defensive skills and heals to become tankier to stalemate until they can repeat it. The idea of getting your damage from this set while investing into defense elsewhere is more true for proc scaling sets rather than flat damage sets for this very reason, because it allows other players to buff your proc damage sets for you.

This is also why I wouldn't want some sort of scaling for sets like MDW either. There's no good reason why someone's MDW set should receive a greater benefit by playing with a group and getting buffed by someone else's buff set while potentially outnumbering their opponent who might not be receiving set buffs from someone else. At least with raw weapon damage sets, those values don't actually get further modified other than possibly someone's else's minor brutality and sorcery and their own weapon damage modifiers. I'm pretty sure the reason why MDW (and Master's 2h) don't scale because the abilities that they affect are already scaling from your existing weapon damage as well, hence why they aren't scaling now like other sets that come with their own separate source of damage, like caluurions and way of fire.

Imagine if they added more scaling percentile weapon damage, penetration and max resource stat character buffs that were implemented as group buff sets. Something like that would mostly buff ball groups while further widening the stat gap for those who don't play like that, because the solo and small scale players wouldn't have the opportunity to be able to stack and benefit from multiple 5pc set bonuses to the extent that ball group players can. That's generally what adding more scaling set changes would do.

I've always believed that the main advantage of ball group gameplay, other than often having a numerical advantage over other players who aren't zerging, should have been the fact that they're able to better coordinate their movements and attacks together, while also potentially covering up for each others weaknesses. But instead they also get to enjoy immensely inflated character stats on top of the other advantages you get by playing in a ball group, including super charged proc sets. This is also why outnumbered gameplay has become more oppressive over the years. Its not just "free damage" or pressure sets, its also the fact that players who are outnumbering you are often being given a stat advantage over you on top of harder hitting proc sets as well, with all the new group buff sets that have been buffed and implemented over the years. Then of course there's also silly cross healing, undeath, etc.

olsborg

No, balancing pvp combat is not a priority

They should, ofcourse. They wont tho.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

@Arcanasx I had to give you an agree on your last post. I think we're seeing eye to eye now. About the group thing... I agree that all the group-buff sets not only inflate their procs but also inflate their healing. I would rather see something done about this than a direct nerf to heal stacking. I've already explained why elsewhere so I'm not gonna go deep into it... But either by just truly separating PvP from PvE (maybe some of these group sets just shouldn't work with battle spirit,) or by Rallying Cry style diminishing returns. And this would, vicariously, lessen their healing too. Or most recently I've been advocating for smaller groups size which would also, vicariously, limit healing potential. Also I will say since there's currently a stress test going on in Cyrodiil that isn't going great for some people... The smaller group size thing might be the way to go, whether we like it or not. The only thing that gets complained about more than Ballgroups HoT stacking is Ballgroups lag!

But okay so I will say this though... Some slightly disagreeing comments...

Arcanasx wrote: »

I'm aware that using one arena weapon pushes you into using another arena weapon because of how one arena weapon will limit your overall gear slot space. That's why we see MDW and vate destro paired together as much as it is because it also allows you to keep your monster 2pc and mythic with a 5pc set. I've mentioned that before in this thread but maybe I wasn't clear enough about that part in my last post. With the build you provided as an example, you could have replaced the 3rd agility piece with a mythic (like DDF) and then replaced the other agility pcs with 1 pc trainee and 1pc druids so you'd have a more stats, and then redistributed the attribute allocation to get the desired amount of max resource stats. Personally I think that would have made the build better as well, since you wouldn't have to sacrifice a mythic. Edit: the opportunity cost for this is sacrificing the 5pc set here. You could drop MDW and vate destro, put deadric trickery on the back bar and then use another 5pc set for the front bar. That could be rallying cry, or kynmarchers for example, which are very strong sets. You could then replace the MDW ability with another DK ability, which could be whip, deep breath or talons for example. Basically one build is better for single target pressure (but not necessarily much better in a 1v1), the other build would be better for group play.

Caluurion's flat damage bonus was nerfed before proc scaling was introduced. The same should have been done for many of the great DOT set offenders during the Malacath meta IMO, instead of implementing proc scaling. My issue with proc scaling is that it actually gives players playing in larger groups or ball groups even more of an advantage because when utilized with group buff sets, it allows them to get much more value out of their "proc" damage sets far more than what a solo or small scale player could ever achieve. There's a reason why ball groups have became even more dominant in cyro after proc scaling was implemented, and it isn't just stat inflation, because they now get to have these super charged proc damage sets that they can use for bursting, which then allows them to get away with running more defensive skills and heals to become tankier to stalemate until they can repeat it. The idea of getting your damage from this set while investing into defense elsewhere is more true for proc scaling sets rather than flat damage sets for this very reason, because it allows other players to buff your proc damage sets for you.

I don't think MDW scaling would make it suddenly become a weapon of the ballgroups. Yes, I see how they could buff it out the wazoo, but I just don't think they would. It's single target. They aren't interested. Their opportunity costs (for using an arena weapon instead of another 5-piece,) is much greater than ours because their 5-piece effects their whole group. You might get Xv1d by some zerglings running it but ballgroups wouldn't use it. I'd bet money.

And I do want to point out how, in the hypothetical Daedric Trickery DK build, I suggested wearing agility jewelry and you immediately pointed out how DDF, trainee, and druids would be better. Which don't get me wrong I can see where it's the right decision because now you can use a mythic. But you didn't say wear Malacath, did you? Even though the build has no crit. You didn't say SSC. You didn't even say Markyn. You immediately, without hesitation, said LET ME SLAP AS MUCH HP AS POSSIBLE on this build WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN WEAPON DAMAGE. And that, my friend, is called tanking up. And that, my friend, is called having your damage carried by arena weapons. And that, my friend, is what I've been saying all along. That is how MDW and Vate Destro play into the current Undeath tank meta.

Miracle19

No, it’s just fine as is

OBJnoob wrote: »

Miracle19 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@CameraBeardThePirate But don't you think that if instances of flat damage were nerfed then people wouldn't be able to build so tanky (and still have damage,) and then the meta would shift back to where burst was king again and whatever little DoT damage could be tacked on top was actually sufficient?

Impossible. It would just widen the gap of those who are able to and those who aren’t. Sets like draugrkin and dragons apetite are entry level sets to being able to deal damage while being tanky. The only way is to completely remove procs all together, which we all know would make pvp very very stale.

I'm not sure why draugrkin and dragons appetite exist separately in your mind from MDW. The benefits of using them in tandem is obvious. If draugrkin and dragons appetite are entry level sets to doing damage while being tanky then obviously MDW is too.

Sure you can use them in tandem and you get diminished returns. There are unique scenarios where it can be very good, most it will not be. Procs aren’t meant to be “balanced”. They are meant to be unique. This is the reason you have various combinations that can be “overtuned”, the most common offender is vate ice as it’s free, applies EVERY status effect, along with every ice staff bonus. Of course in group play this isn’t really a concern, where single target procs aren’t nearly as potent as AOE. This is why procs can’t really be “balanced”, they are individually unique and balanced in one way shape or form.

Galeriano

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Hate to be that guy, but if this was going to get a nerf, it would have happened at any point last year.

I highly doubt that ZOS Combat is so backed up that they couldn’t implement a change to Master’s Dual Wield if it was part of their plan.

My guess is that Combat might be putting together another drastic change soon and that might correct the meta we’ve been trapped in, which would be why they aren’t wasting their time with it.

Thing that stopped master dual wield from getting nerf lately was mara's balm. As long as something isn't heavily used or even abused meta item it won't get nerf and master dual wield this year wasn't that bad up until nerfs to mara's balm which made DoT pressure setups stronger. Ever since master dual wield recived a buff there was still something that was stopping that weapon from becoming top choice but now all that factors are changed or gone so I wouldn't be suprised if master dual wield would recive a nerf or if they would add something that would offset current strenght of DoT pressure setups and passively nerf master DW. It's happening all the time with different setups. Fact that master DW will loose its strenght in 2024 is more than certain.

Miracle19

No, it’s just fine as is

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Hate to be that guy, but if this was going to get a nerf, it would have happened at any point last year.

I highly doubt that ZOS Combat is so backed up that they couldn’t implement a change to Master’s Dual Wield if it was part of their plan.

My guess is that Combat might be putting together another drastic change soon and that might correct the meta we’ve been trapped in, which would be why they aren’t wasting their time with it.

Thing that stopped master dual wield from getting nerf was mara's balm, As long as something isn't heavily used or even abused meta item it won't get nerf and master dual wield wasn't that bad up until nerfs to mara's balm which made DoT pressure setups stronger.

Well it never needed a nerf and still doesn’t. There aren’t many procs outside of the few bugged ones and maybe vate staff that need adjustments. Right now damage is a lot higher than healing, which is a good thing, because it means people die. The problem is that you have to use procs to kill basically, since non proc sets are mostly useless unless you play with balorgh and play the turtle ulti dump play style. Those are the sets that need attention, and buffing.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

@OBJnoob

Ofc ballgroups wouldn't start using MDW if it started scaling, but you could see how even a group of 3-4 players where one is using rallying cry, one's giving the major courage buff, and the other is using powerful assault for example could make a scaling MDW hit harder. Someone using MDW in that group could stack pen and let others buff their weapon damage for them, which would cause them to have their MDW hit a good amount harder than what someone would by able to do with it by themselves. That's if there's set scaling. I really don't think players should be able achieve much greater value from their sets simply for getting buffed by someone else. And then there's zergs as well to consider, who simply don't need to be given a major stat advantage when they already have a numerical advantage.

I used DDF as an example because if you only have one 5pc set markyn isn't going to do much, SSC comes with a snare which I don't like for open world brawling builds and gets countered by ranged builds that know how to kite, and Malacath isn't much of a damage increase even when you don't have much crit because of the damage modifiers that you can already get with CP these days. So you're not really even getting a 16% damage increase, on top of lowering your burst potential.

That's why you go DDF (its the most stat efficient mythic to use), swap the agility for the more efficient health bonuses you can get from trainee and druid for more max stats, and then you can redistribute the points away from health to stamina if you wanted to increase your damage more that way. But usually stacking some health is better because of how strong undeath is, which is making many builds a lot more tanky than they really should be. With 2 arena weapons, an offensive monster set (so 6 slots dedicated to offensive potential) and a defensive 5pc set (5 slots dedicated to defensive potential), that should a "balanced" build that's slightly more offensively oriented. DDF is both offensive and defensive because the extra stamina and magicka resources you get is the equivalent of almost 300 base weapon damage each.

But its the undeath that can allow you to play more even aggressively and end up doing more overall pressure to someone that way, especially against those without it. That's exactly why health stacking with undeath is a problem because that is what can carry your survivability for you. And personally I wouldn't use daedric trickery as a lone 5pc with 2 arena weapons because that's still not enough pressure against some of the more tankier undeath players you can come across (outside of corrosive) IMO, but I was showing you how you could still put in a mythic with two arena weapons.

Galeriano

Miracle19 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Hate to be that guy, but if this was going to get a nerf, it would have happened at any point last year.

I highly doubt that ZOS Combat is so backed up that they couldn’t implement a change to Master’s Dual Wield if it was part of their plan.

My guess is that Combat might be putting together another drastic change soon and that might correct the meta we’ve been trapped in, which would be why they aren’t wasting their time with it.

Thing that stopped master dual wield from getting nerf was mara's balm, As long as something isn't heavily used or even abused meta item it won't get nerf and master dual wield wasn't that bad up until nerfs to mara's balm which made DoT pressure setups stronger.

Well it never needed a nerf and still doesn’t. There aren’t many procs outside of the few bugged ones and maybe vate staff that need adjustments. Right now damage is a lot higher than healing, which is a good thing, because it means people die. The problem is that you have to use procs to kill basically, since non proc sets are mostly useless unless you play with balorgh and play the turtle ulti dump play style. Those are the sets that need attention, and buffing.

It needs nerf now. Having a power of 3-4 regular DoTs with 1 click that is also a decent spammable that applies minor mangle is busted. Damage vs healing proportion is not consistant and changes dramatically based on the scenario.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

Galeriano wrote: »

Miracle19 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Hate to be that guy, but if this was going to get a nerf, it would have happened at any point last year.

I highly doubt that ZOS Combat is so backed up that they couldn’t implement a change to Master’s Dual Wield if it was part of their plan.

My guess is that Combat might be putting together another drastic change soon and that might correct the meta we’ve been trapped in, which would be why they aren’t wasting their time with it.

Thing that stopped master dual wield from getting nerf was mara's balm, As long as something isn't heavily used or even abused meta item it won't get nerf and master dual wield wasn't that bad up until nerfs to mara's balm which made DoT pressure setups stronger.

Well it never needed a nerf and still doesn’t. There aren’t many procs outside of the few bugged ones and maybe vate staff that need adjustments. Right now damage is a lot higher than healing, which is a good thing, because it means people die. The problem is that you have to use procs to kill basically, since non proc sets are mostly useless unless you play with balorgh and play the turtle ulti dump play style. Those are the sets that need attention, and buffing.

It needs nerf now. Having a power of 3-4 regular DoTs with 1 click that is also a decent spammable that applies minor mangle is busted. Damage vs healing proportion is not consistant and changes dramatically based on the scenario.

How is adding 500-600 damage per tick on the bleeds having the power of 3-4 regular dots? MDW being used as a DOT adds about 250-300 DPS. You can easily get over twice the potential DPS value with vate destro. Meanwhile, have you been paying attention to how much HPS players can have these days? Do you know how many MDW bleed ticks that you need to add up in order to match a NB bow that can often land for 15k plus, or 10k molten whips and crystal frags, or how easy is it to out heal it with burst heals?

Its also bleed damage, so you'd be able to proc the bleed debuff on them with one charged easily anyways. A burning DOT that comes with elemental susceptibility sometimes can match or exceed the DPS of the MDW DoT DPS boost itself. Imagine not needing an arena weapon to have a great spammable like concealed weapon and molten whip that can be further buffed with an offensive 5pc set. Its almost as if having to slot an arena weapon to make an ability be good enough as a spammable should also offer a little extra at least.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

Well we saw eye to eye but maybe I didn't get get my point across still. Pretty sure with you yourself suggesting adding like 5k more health in jewelry it would be obvious... You literally made my point for me. But that's okay we just disagree on the MDW thing. It was a good discussion.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

You can have a 2pc monster set and easily add DDF and 1pc trainee for 4k plus health and 3k max stamina and magicka with a 5pc front bar and 5pc back bar setup too. You can basically trade in two arena weapons and the 1pc druids for an entire 5pc set. Being able to add health or more tankiness isn't exclusive with double arena weapon builds, its actually less because unlike the arena weapons, 5pc sets are likely to have max health and armor bonuses.

The double 5pc setups are also going to make you more tanky because weapon damage stats (basically flat bonuses too except they can be increased by more modifiers and are calculated differently) which also increase your healing potential unlike the arena weapon sets that only give you pure damage. That's why you see tanky 50k health clever alchemist wardens builds stacking weapon damage having a lot of burst potential with balorghs for example. Someone who decides to use two purely offensive arena weapons is still sacrificing potential survivability in favor of doing more damage, and that's where the opportunity cost is.

This is what I mean about the notion of "arena weapons give you your damage while you can be tanky and stack health elsewhere" is misleading because the same thing can already be done with 5pc front bar and 5pc back bar setups. And both of them can take advantage of undeath.

Nobody calls sets like war maidens, silks of the sun, sword singer, sword dancer and other such sets "free damage proc sets" and yet MDW and Masters 2h function in a very similar manner. The only difference is that they are a lot more specialized and instead of the arena set increasing the actual weapon damage stat of the affected ability by X amount, it instead adds a flat amount of base damage that has less potential damage increasing modifiers. But apparently, that's what makes the difference between being called a "stat set" and a "free damage proc set that allows you to add health and tankiness elsewhere" despite the only difference being how that damage gets calculated in the damage formula.

Galeriano

Arcanasx wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Miracle19 wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Hate to be that guy, but if this was going to get a nerf, it would have happened at any point last year.

I highly doubt that ZOS Combat is so backed up that they couldn’t implement a change to Master’s Dual Wield if it was part of their plan.

My guess is that Combat might be putting together another drastic change soon and that might correct the meta we’ve been trapped in, which would be why they aren’t wasting their time with it.

Thing that stopped master dual wield from getting nerf was mara's balm, As long as something isn't heavily used or even abused meta item it won't get nerf and master dual wield wasn't that bad up until nerfs to mara's balm which made DoT pressure setups stronger.

Well it never needed a nerf and still doesn’t. There aren’t many procs outside of the few bugged ones and maybe vate staff that need adjustments. Right now damage is a lot higher than healing, which is a good thing, because it means people die. The problem is that you have to use procs to kill basically, since non proc sets are mostly useless unless you play with balorgh and play the turtle ulti dump play style. Those are the sets that need attention, and buffing.

It needs nerf now. Having a power of 3-4 regular DoTs with 1 click that is also a decent spammable that applies minor mangle is busted. Damage vs healing proportion is not consistant and changes dramatically based on the scenario.

How is adding 500-600 damage per tick on the bleeds having the power of 3-4 regular dots? MDW being used as a DOT adds about 250-300 DPS. You can easily get over twice the potential DPS value with vate destro. Meanwhile, have you been paying attention to how much HPS players can have these days? Do you know how many MDW bleed ticks that you need to add up in order to match a NB bow that can often land for 15k plus, or 10k molten whips and crystal frags, or how easy is it to out heal it with burst heals?

Its also bleed damage, so you'd be able to proc the bleed debuff on them with one charged easily anyways. A burning DOT that comes with elemental susceptibility sometimes can match or exceed the DPS of the MDW DoT DPS boost itself. Imagine not needing an arena weapon to have a great spammable like concealed weapon and molten whip that can be further buffed with an offensive 5pc set. Its almost as if having to slot an arena weapon to make an ability be good enough as a spammable should also offer a little extra at least.

Master dual wield more than doubles or even triples the dmg on rending slashes depends how much offensive stats do You have. Rending slashes alone also have a guaranteed chance to proc hemorhaging instantly which is additional DoT and every tick also have reliable chance to do it and due to the fact it's a dual wield skill line ability You have more freedom to use charged trait on one of the weapons. So tooltip of 2-3 DoTs plus additional DoT from status effect makes it close to what 3-4 other DoTs have to offer dmg wise. And that is just a DoT component when tooltip for instant cast value makes it comparable to other spammables and while spamming it You are guaranteed to have minor mangle from hemmorhaging status effects applied to enemy. That is simply too much for one ability. Like I've already said, having one ability that have a power of 3-4 DoTs plus power of regular spammable and minor mangle on top if it is just busted. Keep in mind that due to the fact that proc component from master DW is added to the skill tooltip it underlies every dmg modificator and passive that works on base ability like more dmg to low hp targets etc and due to the fact spammable portion of ability is split into two separate hits it works great with sets like dragon's sppetite.

Vate destro can't even come close to what master DW offers. If elemental susceptibility wouldn't be one of the best abilities in PvP on its own nobody would be using vate destro today. As for burning status effect from elemental susceptibility it's usually high in cmx because dmg from rending slahes is split into 4 different categories but after combining them all it usually beats everything else even combined dmg of chilled, concused and burning status effects from ele sus and dmg from vate destro.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

No bro. You're hiding behind details. The dang point is that a build using Daedric Trickery, MDW, Vate Destro, Trainee, Druids, and DDF has no weapon damage to speak of yet this is what you recommend because it's stat dense. And by stat dense I mean has a lot of HP while crutching on Undeath.

And the fact that using 1 arena weapon basically forces you into using 2... Which then leaves you with no choice but to go Trainee and Druids so you can still get a monster set and a mythic.

There's no opportunity cost for doing this. There is an opportunity cost for not doing this. That's why so many people do it. That's why you yourself recommended it. You know what's good you just don't want to admit it's cheese. Meanwhile you complain about Undeath and max HP. You're a little lost my man. I have no desire to argue with someone that checkmates themselves and then continues trying to move pieces.

Like I said, I recognize that there are other big problems. I even recognize that some are worse than this one. But the way you just skirt around your foot being DEEP in your mouth just makes me not want to talk anymore.

You'd rather have 3k health than 300 weapon damage. But that has nothing to do with the tanky meta or sources of flat/passive damage. Nor does the prevalence of 2 OP arena weapons that just so happen, if you build optimally, to leave you with only two slots to fill that can realistically only be filled by health. Mmmmk. Now I'm obviously the annoyed one. Let me stop.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

Yes, DDF and 1pc trainee are really stat dense... I mentioned how you could improve the example you provided just by slotting more stat efficient items that not only could be used with the double arena weapon setups, but also with two 5pc setups as well. And just because I've been using undeath and health stacking myself doesn't mean I'm "checkmating" myself either because I can acknowledge that its an issue because of how strong the combination is... so yes I can and will "complain" about undeath and max health stacking, especially when there's healing that scales with max health. Because those are actually closer to the root issues currently affecting PvP, not the arena weapons that the death-recap fanatics are complaining about. Meanwhile, I haven't used MDW as a spammable for quite a while and I don't use vate destro either.

I'd appreciate it if you'd stop misrepresenting me by claiming that I think just having two arena weapons for damage and stacking health while neglecting other stats is either good enough for damage or what makes a good enough build. I'm not recommending double arena weapon setups over double 5pc setups either...because they both have their strengths and both setups can also use DDF and 1pc trainee together to stack health. Again, the reason why we see those arena weapons used as much as they are is because elemental susceptibility is overloaded and many classes are lacking a good single target, melee spammable that's instant. Or they're actually going full single target pressure damage, which are not "tank" builds, but actual pressure focused damage builds. Its not like those stat dense sets I mentioned are somehow uniquely enabling MDW and vate destro to work better than other kinds of builds. Having undeath and stacking health doesn't make the existing weapon damage or penetration stats that you already have better or worse for dealing damage, but somehow its more unfair to combine that with sets that are purely offensive and don't provide any direct benefits to survivability...

The fact that slotting two offensive arena weapons means you're still dedicating 4 item slots towards your offensive capability. No one back then would have called players using one 5pc damage set like hunding's, ravager, new moon acolyte, spriggan's, stuhn's or even 5pc shattered fate today, a tank build with too much damage that somehow unfairly gets their "free" damage from one set while getting their survivability and sustain from other places. They'd be called "balanced" builds. Not tanks or glass cannons. The major difference today compared to back then is how common undeath, inflated cross healing, health stacking and how good ice staff elemental susceptibility is now, which literally all builds, including damage focused builds, can take advantage of...not just MDW and vate destro builds. If they ever tone down the other defensive stuff, then the MDW and vate destro builds are going to become a lot less "tanky", and so would other builds too. And for the 5th time, the opportunity cost for using 2 arena weapons in today's meta is replacing a second 5pc set bonus for it. There's a reason why most balorghs burst builds and especially NBs are using two 5pc set bonuses instead of only one 5pc with two arena weapons. Its not the fault of MDW or vate destro that undeath, health stacking and cross healing exists.

You'd still need to get your weapon damage with 3 infused jewelry enchants. If you try to skip on adding weapon damage, your damage from your other abilities is going to be too low and so is your healing, so lets not pretend that replacing them with resource recoveries will still somehow be viable for doing good damage in an undeath health stacking meta. Only having two arena weapons while completely neglecting weapon damage, isn't going to do the damage for you alone unless you're fighting PvE players with 20k health. You're also going to need to invest in penetration and possibly crit to get the most out of arena weapons too.

And the fact that you think needing to stack high weapon damage, which isn't just an offensive stat but a defensive stat as well for increasing your healing, should somehow be an absolute requirement for having to do good damage...while you have actual dedicated pure damage offensive stats and sets, like penetration and flat damage sets, just goes to show what an utterly entitled mindset that some players have. That somehow their mixed offensive and defensive "weapon damage" stat should be able to do as much damage as the purely offensively oriented stats and bonuses...What would be broken OP is having weapon damage stacking not only matching the damage potential of penetration and dedicated damage sets, but also providing its healing potential on top of it. And that would further reinforce the "tanks with damage meta", not combat it. If you want to maximize damage with "stat sets" and no arena weapons, that's what penetration sets are for, which are usually better for double 5pc setups. Again, both setups can stack health and use undeath with DDF and 1pc trainee.

Btw, its not just "3k" health but it also gives an extra 3k max stamina and magicka, which also increases your damage and healing too, so you should stop leaving that out. And I've never claimed that the health stat sets aren't contributing to a tanky meta. If DDF and trainee disappeared the meta would become less tanky. If MDW and vate destro disappeared, the tank meta would be reinforced, because there would be less ways of doing damage and players are still going to be stacking health, using DDF, trainee, undeath, and an ice staff with elemental susceptibility. Its obviously going to be better than just 206 base weapon damage, not 300 weapon damage. So of course anyone who does the math and understands stat efficiency and undeath is going to choose the 4-5k health, and 3k max stamina and magicka option, over just a 200 a weapon damage with 1752 stamina set. And it has nothing to do with MDW and vate destro at all because the double 5pc set builds and other double arena weapon builds will still use it to stack health and resources over the weak agility set that isn't worth using even for "stat" builds.