Will ZOS ever nerf Master’s Dual Wield/Stinging Slashes?

SandandStars

It’s going on 2 years of the Master’s DW meta crutch steadily taking over all classes (in pvp). Do you think the combat dev team will adjust it anytime soon, or ever?

Tyrant_Tim

No, balancing pvp combat is not a priority

Hate to be that guy, but if this was going to get a nerf, it would have happened at any point last year.

I highly doubt that ZOS Combat is so backed up that they couldn’t implement a change to Master’s Dual Wield if it was part of their plan.

My guess is that Combat might be putting together another drastic change soon and that might correct the meta we’ve been trapped in, which would be why they aren’t wasting their time with it.

SandandStars

^ seems likely. Watch them do a comprehensive nerf to all HOTs with the effect of making Masters DW/Vatesh even more powerful.

Kind of like when the DK set gave a massive boost to the uptime of Corrosive (pre nerf).

We shall see..,

KlauthWarthog

Depends on whether or not they intend to release something similar locked behind a paywall.
No, I did not forget what they tried to do with Iceheart.

fred4

No, balancing pvp combat is not a priority

I voted "yellow", but really what I think is that Master DW is just the most egregious offender in a meta shift that crept into PvP when DOT durations were lengthened to 20s without much uproar. To the contrary, as I remember it everyone was concerned about most DOTs being weakened, lengthened, useless, without realising how oppressive this meta actually is. It's no longer about burst. It's made CCs less important. People melt. Mara's Balm initially masked this. That set was itself viewed as a problem, but really everyone was wearing it as a reaction to the underlying meta.

I suppose toning Stinging Slashes down would be the right thing to do, but all the while I'm wondering what will take it's place, or what already has. I also think this meta has diversified PvP away from just burst and CC, which I suspect looks good in ZOS' spreadsheets and may even be good for newer players. ZOS may be thinking "job well done". I'm not sure I disagree, though I'm not sure what I'm thinking, cause I don't PvP much anymore. I only know that running a cleanse on my nightblade almost feels like a necessity, that DKs are so strong because they have it all, including DOTs, and that heals can be strong, but you also need them or you melt.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

Hopefully not, because there wouldn't be any other similar stamina spammable to replace it for the majority of classes. If anything, I'd say that the most common meta setup by far is actually back-barring an ice stave and using elemental susceptibility which is crazy strong as a force amplifier, often combined with the defensive benefits of an ice staff, and undeath too. But elemental susceptibility and undeath doesn't show up on your death recap, so I guess people find it more difficult to figure out the full extent of how incredibly decisive these effects actually are in determining the outcome of a fight. And also, because of how builds are made these days, if you decide to use one arena weapon, it makes sense to use another arena weapon on the other bar as well simply because of how one arena weapon already limits your overall gear setup.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

You should also consider that Nbs have concealed weapon, which is the best spammable in the game, and Dks have whip; both morphs are very good. These are instant melee spammables. These classes also happen to be doing very well in PvP partially because they actually have a reliable melee spammable that comes with their class kit. If you think the added DOT pressure from MDW is problematic, it really isn't with how high the current TTK is these days. Meanwhile, those same classes also tend to backbar an ice staff with elemental susceptibility far more than you see them spam rending slashes, at least on PCNA.

Stinging slashes itself has not been updated in about 40 months, and the last change they made for it to do "spammable" levels of damage is actually intended. Nerfing it because its become more common as a result of changes being made throughout the last few years that has lead to an overall increase in TTK, which has then also caused cast time spammables like dizzy swing to lose much of its burst potency, is silly, and would end up creating more problems that it solves.

High TTK is already an issue. Crazy stacked cross-healing is an issue. Undeath is an issue. Getting spammed and status effect stacked by multiple elemental susceptibilities from a distance at a free cost can also be an issue. All a nerf like this would do is make NBs and DKs stronger because they aren't as reliant on MDW, and push other classes into using ranged setups. It would also cause the TTK to increase even more. Anyone who actually believes that we're in an oppressive high damage meta (outside of getting absolutely zerged) is either a relatively new player with a lack of experience of what the games TTK used to be like, misses pre-nerf mara's balm, or has amnesia, because the overall TTK used to be much lower years ago.

The MDW bonus itself was also more potent years ago than it is today, especially when combined with pre-nerfed DOT builds. They gave everyone a free 1000 weapon/spell damage with CP 2.0 which brought ability damage buffs and an even greater healing buff (because healing doesn't get mitigated as much as damage does) which hasn't benefited MDW's unchanged flat damage bonus at all. Yet people weren't complaining about MDW nearly as much back then because there were other effective options and playstyles available. So instead of focusing on nerfing offensive options that currently work, how about we actually bring other offensive options up to par again.

For other arena weapons, look at BRP 2H for example; its completely outclassed and made mostly pointless by Masters 2H. Maybe giving it the weapon damage bonus that they were going to give maelstrom 2H before they changed it to a direct damage bonus would help. Rework maelstrom DW so it has a bonus that actually buffs itself. Add a bonus to maelstrom SnB where light attacking increases the damage of heroic strike/deep slash so you can have that as another spammable option again like before; they might as well because they've already given ice staves offensive options. Give flame and shock reach the frost reach treatment too so ranged magicka builds have more spammable options available, as well as making masters destro more viable.

Offensive "power creep" might be a necessity to help combat the defensive power creep that's been taking place over the last few years if they won't otherwise directly address that defensive power creep that they've created. It would also be really nice if more instant melee spammables were introduced. So having a 5pc set on the FB and another on the BB becomes a more viable setup for classes currently lacking a good and reliable melee spammable, because only using one arena weapon with two 5pc sets means having to sacrifice either your monster 2pc or a mythic, along with missing out on 1pc trainee.

IZZEFlameLash

No, it’s just fine as is

Arcanasx wrote: »

You should also consider that Nbs have concealed weapon, which is the best spammable in the game, and Dks have whip; both morphs are very good. These are instant melee spammables. These classes also happen to be doing very well in PvP partially because they actually have a reliable melee spammable that comes with their class kit. If you think the added DOT pressure from MDW is problematic, it really isn't with how high the current TTK is these days. Meanwhile, those same classes also tend to backbar an ice staff with elemental susceptibility far more than you see them spam rending slashes, at least on PCNA.

Stinging slashes itself has not been updated in about 40 months, and the last change they made for it to do "spammable" levels of damage is actually intended. Nerfing it because its become more common as a result of changes being made throughout the last few years that has lead to an overall increase in TTK, which has then also caused cast time spammables like dizzy swing to lose much of its burst potency, is silly, and would end up creating more problems that it solves.

High TTK is already an issue. Crazy stacked cross-healing is an issue. Undeath is an issue. Getting spammed and status effect stacked by multiple elemental susceptibilities from a distance at a free cost can also be an issue. All a nerf like this would do is make NBs and DKs stronger because they aren't as reliant on MDW, and push other classes into using ranged setups. It would also cause the TTK to increase even more. Anyone who actually believes that we're in an oppressive high damage meta (outside of getting absolutely zerged) is either a relatively new player with a lack of experience of what the games TTK used to be like, misses pre-nerf mara's balm, or has amnesia, because the overall TTK used to be much lower years ago.

The MDW bonus itself was also more potent years ago than it is today, especially when combined with pre-nerfed DOT builds. They gave everyone a free 1000 weapon/spell damage with CP 2.0 which brought ability damage buffs and an even greater healing buff (because healing doesn't get mitigated as much as damage does) which hasn't benefited MDW's unchanged flat damage bonus at all. Yet people weren't complaining about MDW nearly as much back then because there were other effective options and playstyles available. So instead of focusing on nerfing offensive options that currently work, how about we actually bring other offensive options up to par again.

For other arena weapons, look at BRP 2H for example; its completely outclassed and made mostly pointless by Masters 2H. Maybe giving it the weapon damage bonus that they were going to give maelstrom 2H before they changed it to a direct damage bonus would help. Rework maelstrom DW so it has a bonus that actually buffs itself. Add a bonus to maelstrom SnB where light attacking increases the damage of heroic strike/deep slash so you can have that as another spammable option again like before; they might as well because they've already given ice staves offensive options. Give flame and shock reach the frost reach treatment too so ranged magicka builds have more spammable options available, as well as making masters destro more viable.

Offensive "power creep" might be a necessity to help combat the defensive power creep that's been taking place over the last few years if they won't otherwise directly address that defensive power creep that they've created. It would also be really nice if more instant melee spammables were introduced. So having a 5pc set on the FB and another on the BB becomes a more viable setup for classes currently lacking a good and reliable melee spammable, because only using one arena weapon with two 5pc sets means having to sacrifice either your monster 2pc or a mythic, along with missing out on 1pc trainee.

Remember when bleed used to ignore physical resistances? Lol that was when Master's DW was at its peak. Combined with axes proccing its own strong bleed.

SandandStars

so keep masters dw op so that other classes have a chance at competing with nb and dk?

aside from a flaw in that logic (a thousand dks running masters dw), does this seem like an intelligent way to provide dynamic combat for a game with hundreds of useless gear sets?

maybe I’m just bored of this crappily balanced game

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

You should also consider that Nbs have concealed weapon, which is the best spammable in the game, and Dks have whip; both morphs are very good. These are instant melee spammables. These classes also happen to be doing very well in PvP partially because they actually have a reliable melee spammable that comes with their class kit. If you think the added DOT pressure from MDW is problematic, it really isn't with how high the current TTK is these days. Meanwhile, those same classes also tend to backbar an ice staff with elemental susceptibility far more than you see them spam rending slashes, at least on PCNA.

Stinging slashes itself has not been updated in about 40 months, and the last change they made for it to do "spammable" levels of damage is actually intended. Nerfing it because its become more common as a result of changes being made throughout the last few years that has lead to an overall increase in TTK, which has then also caused cast time spammables like dizzy swing to lose much of its burst potency, is silly, and would end up creating more problems that it solves.

High TTK is already an issue. Crazy stacked cross-healing is an issue. Undeath is an issue. Getting spammed and status effect stacked by multiple elemental susceptibilities from a distance at a free cost can also be an issue. All a nerf like this would do is make NBs and DKs stronger because they aren't as reliant on MDW, and push other classes into using ranged setups. It would also cause the TTK to increase even more. Anyone who actually believes that we're in an oppressive high damage meta (outside of getting absolutely zerged) is either a relatively new player with a lack of experience of what the games TTK used to be like, misses pre-nerf mara's balm, or has amnesia, because the overall TTK used to be much lower years ago.

The MDW bonus itself was also more potent years ago than it is today, especially when combined with pre-nerfed DOT builds. They gave everyone a free 1000 weapon/spell damage with CP 2.0 which brought ability damage buffs and an even greater healing buff (because healing doesn't get mitigated as much as damage does) which hasn't benefited MDW's unchanged flat damage bonus at all. Yet people weren't complaining about MDW nearly as much back then because there were other effective options and playstyles available. So instead of focusing on nerfing offensive options that currently work, how about we actually bring other offensive options up to par again.

For other arena weapons, look at BRP 2H for example; its completely outclassed and made mostly pointless by Masters 2H. Maybe giving it the weapon damage bonus that they were going to give maelstrom 2H before they changed it to a direct damage bonus would help. Rework maelstrom DW so it has a bonus that actually buffs itself. Add a bonus to maelstrom SnB where light attacking increases the damage of heroic strike/deep slash so you can have that as another spammable option again like before; they might as well because they've already given ice staves offensive options. Give flame and shock reach the frost reach treatment too so ranged magicka builds have more spammable options available, as well as making masters destro more viable.

Offensive "power creep" might be a necessity to help combat the defensive power creep that's been taking place over the last few years if they won't otherwise directly address that defensive power creep that they've created. It would also be really nice if more instant melee spammables were introduced. So having a 5pc set on the FB and another on the BB becomes a more viable setup for classes currently lacking a good and reliable melee spammable, because only using one arena weapon with two 5pc sets means having to sacrifice either your monster 2pc or a mythic, along with missing out on 1pc trainee.

Remember when bleed used to ignore physical resistances? Lol that was when Master's DW was at its peak. Combined with axes proccing its own strong bleed.

I do. I believe that was also when DOT ticks were at 1 second intervals too and I remember being able to see chunks of health being removed by old masters DW with axes lol. Was particularly brutal when stacked with old defile and other DOT abilities when they actually did good damage as well. I also remember old reverb back when it had a 30% defile; which ironically did more pressure than today's MDW. Or old wrecking blow with the knock up stun that could set up easy 20k plus ult combos back when the average health pool was 22-25k.

Which makes you wonder how a lot of these players today who think "MDW does too much pressure plz nerf" would react had they actually played or remembered how the game was back then.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

SandandStars wrote: »

so keep masters dw op so that other classes have a chance at competing with nb and dk?

aside from a flaw in that logic (a thousand dks running masters dw), does this seem like an intelligent way to provide dynamic combat for a game with hundreds of useless gear sets?

maybe I’m just bored of this crappily balanced game

OP as in its intended to make rending slashes do spammable levels of damage? Concealed weapon and molten whip often hit harder. Or OP as in adding about 500-600 damage after battle spirit and mitigation on your rending slashes and blood craze DOT ticks which occur every 2 seconds? Super oppressive with all the healing that's available these days. I mean if you wait for 30 MDW ticks, or one minute coming from one player, that's about 15k-18k damage coming from MDW over that time. Meanwhile a single burst heal will heal most of that and two will likely more than counter it...not including all the other heals likely taking place during that time.

Also, DKs are using bloodcraze, because they're using whip as a spammable. They might as well put MDW on the FB to replace burning embers if they're already using elemental susceptibility ice vate destro on the BB, because using one arena weapon pushes you into using another one due to limited gear space. Using two 5pc sets with one arena weapon means sacrificing either a monster 2pc or a mythic, along with missing out on 1pc trainee.

You're conflating "I'm seeing this on my death recap more often than I'd like" with "Wow, this is super broken and this needs an emergency nerf!" Even though it'll remove melee spammable options for 4 classes that don't have a similar replacement, and further increase PvP's already high TTK.

Elemental susceptibility and undeath are also more prevalent than MDW. Their usage is definitely more stale than people using MDW is.

IZZEFlameLash

No, it’s just fine as is

Arcanasx wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

You should also consider that Nbs have concealed weapon, which is the best spammable in the game, and Dks have whip; both morphs are very good. These are instant melee spammables. These classes also happen to be doing very well in PvP partially because they actually have a reliable melee spammable that comes with their class kit. If you think the added DOT pressure from MDW is problematic, it really isn't with how high the current TTK is these days. Meanwhile, those same classes also tend to backbar an ice staff with elemental susceptibility far more than you see them spam rending slashes, at least on PCNA.

Stinging slashes itself has not been updated in about 40 months, and the last change they made for it to do "spammable" levels of damage is actually intended. Nerfing it because its become more common as a result of changes being made throughout the last few years that has lead to an overall increase in TTK, which has then also caused cast time spammables like dizzy swing to lose much of its burst potency, is silly, and would end up creating more problems that it solves.

High TTK is already an issue. Crazy stacked cross-healing is an issue. Undeath is an issue. Getting spammed and status effect stacked by multiple elemental susceptibilities from a distance at a free cost can also be an issue. All a nerf like this would do is make NBs and DKs stronger because they aren't as reliant on MDW, and push other classes into using ranged setups. It would also cause the TTK to increase even more. Anyone who actually believes that we're in an oppressive high damage meta (outside of getting absolutely zerged) is either a relatively new player with a lack of experience of what the games TTK used to be like, misses pre-nerf mara's balm, or has amnesia, because the overall TTK used to be much lower years ago.

The MDW bonus itself was also more potent years ago than it is today, especially when combined with pre-nerfed DOT builds. They gave everyone a free 1000 weapon/spell damage with CP 2.0 which brought ability damage buffs and an even greater healing buff (because healing doesn't get mitigated as much as damage does) which hasn't benefited MDW's unchanged flat damage bonus at all. Yet people weren't complaining about MDW nearly as much back then because there were other effective options and playstyles available. So instead of focusing on nerfing offensive options that currently work, how about we actually bring other offensive options up to par again.

For other arena weapons, look at BRP 2H for example; its completely outclassed and made mostly pointless by Masters 2H. Maybe giving it the weapon damage bonus that they were going to give maelstrom 2H before they changed it to a direct damage bonus would help. Rework maelstrom DW so it has a bonus that actually buffs itself. Add a bonus to maelstrom SnB where light attacking increases the damage of heroic strike/deep slash so you can have that as another spammable option again like before; they might as well because they've already given ice staves offensive options. Give flame and shock reach the frost reach treatment too so ranged magicka builds have more spammable options available, as well as making masters destro more viable.

Offensive "power creep" might be a necessity to help combat the defensive power creep that's been taking place over the last few years if they won't otherwise directly address that defensive power creep that they've created. It would also be really nice if more instant melee spammables were introduced. So having a 5pc set on the FB and another on the BB becomes a more viable setup for classes currently lacking a good and reliable melee spammable, because only using one arena weapon with two 5pc sets means having to sacrifice either your monster 2pc or a mythic, along with missing out on 1pc trainee.

Remember when bleed used to ignore physical resistances? Lol that was when Master's DW was at its peak. Combined with axes proccing its own strong bleed.

I do. I believe that was also when DOT ticks were at 1 second intervals too and I remember being able to see chunks of health being removed by old masters DW with axes lol. Was particularly brutal when stacked with old defile and other DOT abilities when they actually did good damage as well. I also remember old reverb back when it had a 30% defile; which ironically did more pressure than today's MDW. Or old wrecking blow with the knock up stun that could set up easy 20k plus ult combos back when the average health pool was 22-25k.

Which makes you wonder how a lot of these players today who think "MDW does too much pressure plz nerf" would react had they actually played or remembered how the game was back then.

Yeah, lol. MDW these days are nothing. MDW boosted Twin Slashes and its morphs are not really the killer by themselves. Most of the times, I can tank MDW and Vate combo. But it gets definitely harder when there are other proc sets are involved. Something tells me these arena sets aren't really the OP. Do they enable a playstyle? Yes. 'MDW and Vate staff op' threads are quite few patches late imo.

Sluggy

No, it’s just fine as is

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Remember when bleed used to ignore physical resistances? Lol that was when Master's DW was at its peak. Combined with axes proccing its own strong bleed.

And this is exactly why I don't complain about dots today. They are nothing compared to years past. The bleeds ignoring armor thing alone made Werewolves and Rending-to-Cloak critblades the stuff of nightmares.

S0rwizard

Yes, any minute now

Nerf Dual wild or nerf spammable or nerf way of fire, 90% of the times i am dieing because of dots stacking on dots of this tanky guys with 40k health just spamming it with staff e then sit and wait.
Every class are wearing this combos:
Vetershan staff ice
MDW
dragons' appetite / way of fire
Maarselok

It is just ridiculous, i really hate proc meta, skills must be more impactful then a set just because u exists....

I am playing magsorc, no shilds no pet no damage proc, call me noob i dont care... but this sets combo are just cheese, pvp doesn't have to by like that... Change my mind

IZZEFlameLash

No, it’s just fine as is

Sluggy wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Remember when bleed used to ignore physical resistances? Lol that was when Master's DW was at its peak. Combined with axes proccing its own strong bleed.

And this is exactly why I don't complain about dots today. They are nothing compared to years past. The bleeds ignoring armor thing alone made Werewolves and Rending-to-Cloak critblades the stuff of nightmares.

Yeep, even the most frequent skills that kill me these days still are direct damages and direct damage-esque procs. DoTs are really not the biggest problem. Is it boring meta? Yeah it is. But not unbearable compared to that DoT meta.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

You guys are really missing the important points about why it's OP.

It's mostly OP because it's unscaled damage. It isn't about how much damage it does necessarily it's about how tanky you can build yourself to be while still doing damage that damage.

It's about DW, Masters or otherwise, being the only real weapon choice these days.

It's about the over-abundance of status effects, how duel wield allows 1 more enchant and a possible free charged trait on the off-hand.

It's about the hemorrhaging procs. It's about the combination of it all, plus weakness to elements, just being the only resource efficient way to do damage. How those 2 skills do so much, all without building for damage.

And it's about the interaction with the other OP sets-- dragons appetite and draugrkin.

Everybody is using it. If it's not OP, why are so many people using it?

Your hypothesis is wrong and it's leading you down the wrong path of logic because you're trying to prove your personal opinion instead of trying to explain what the current state of the game actually and obviously is.

Sluggy

No, it’s just fine as is

OBJnoob wrote: »

You guys are really missing the important points about why it's OP.

It's mostly OP because it's unscaled damage. It isn't about how much damage it does necessarily it's about how tanky you can build yourself to be while still doing damage that damage.

It's about DW, Masters or otherwise, being the only real weapon choice these days.

It's about the over-abundance of status effects, how duel wield allows 1 more enchant and a possible free charged trait on the off-hand.

It's about the hemorrhaging procs. It's about the combination of it all, plus weakness to elements, just being the only resource efficient way to do damage. How those 2 skills do so much, all without building for damage.

And it's about the interaction with the other OP sets-- dragons appetite and draugrkin.

Everybody is using it. If it's not OP, why are so many people using it?

Your hypothesis is wrong and it's leading you down the wrong path of logic because you're trying to prove your personal opinion instead of trying to explain what the current state of the game actually and obviously is.

It's not a hypothesis if I've tested it. It's just a confirmation at that point. I actually watch numbers when fighting to see what they are doing so that I can adjust.

Master's Dual wield is okay. Just okay. But it ain't even close to overpowered. Popular doesn't mean overpowered. When procs sets were adjusted a couple of years ago I ran Masters with a tanky warden and it wasn't half bad. But it required sacrifices. Now it's even more of a sacrifice because the dot portion has literally been cut in half. On top of that if *EVERYONE* is some super tank running around with 40k health and 7 skills that heal there is absolutely no chance that rending slashes is going to commit enough to the scenario to make it a significant source of damage.

If you start asking for nerfs to that set then it's not going to increase diversity it's going to further narrow and shoehorn it. Right now it is a viable option for some builds but if it gets nerfed then it simply will get deconned like so much else in the game. People simply won't run it all all. Ever. But hey, you do you Booboo. I don't run the set currently and if it gets nerfed it just means I can save some bank space. Everyone else will have to catch up with me then.

Vaqual

OBJnoob wrote: »

You guys are really missing the important points about why it's OP.

It's mostly OP because it's unscaled damage. It isn't about how much damage it does necessarily it's about how tanky you can build yourself to be while still doing damage that damage.

It's about DW, Masters or otherwise, being the only real weapon choice these days.

It's about the over-abundance of status effects, how duel wield allows 1 more enchant and a possible free charged trait on the off-hand.

It's about the hemorrhaging procs. It's about the combination of it all, plus weakness to elements, just being the only resource efficient way to do damage. How those 2 skills do so much, all without building for damage.

And it's about the interaction with the other OP sets-- dragons appetite and draugrkin.

Everybody is using it. If it's not OP, why are so many people using it?

Your hypothesis is wrong and it's leading you down the wrong path of logic because you're trying to prove your personal opinion instead of trying to explain what the current state of the game actually and obviously is.

This is correct and all other opinions are wrong.

YetAnotherLinuxUser

I just hate it when people come to the forums wanting to nerf some thing that people use and are successful with because it isn't the thing they wish to use or arent succesful with it.

I have healers that can use destro/resto, resto/dw. resto/2h, 2h/dw, bow/dw. i have variety and here you come wanting to take away some of that variety? yah, no thanks.

CameraBeardThePirate

No, balancing pvp combat is not a priority

I dont actually think Master's should be nerfed. I DO think Elemental Susceptibility should be nerfed - no reason why that ability should be free with how much damage it adds.

I think the reason Master's DW and Vat Staff are so popular (along with Maarselok) is because after U35, there aren't really any other ways to have good DoT pressure. All the DoTs were gutted outside of proc sets.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

@CameraBeardThePirate But don't you think that if instances of flat damage were nerfed then people wouldn't be able to build so tanky (and still have damage,) and then the meta would shift back to where burst was king again and whatever little DoT damage could be tacked on top was actually sufficient?

CameraBeardThePirate

No, balancing pvp combat is not a priority

OBJnoob wrote: »

@CameraBeardThePirate But don't you think that if instances of flat damage were nerfed then people wouldn't be able to build so tanky (and still have damage,) and then the meta would shift back to where burst was king again and whatever little DoT damage could be tacked on top was actually sufficient?

It would probably reduce the upper limit of tankiness while still having damage for sure - but plenty of players are just as tanky with just as much damage without using Master DW.

There are a lot of reasons why it's so easy to build tanky while still having damage. Masters DW is an easy "plug and play" set that certainly contributes to the problem, but things like Undeath, the CP 2.0 base stats added, power creep in consumables, buff sets like Rallying Cry, most groups gaining Minor Evasion through Arcanist, etc. are all bigger factors imo.

And on the flip side - Master DW also cuts through tanky players. As much of a contributing factor to the problem it is, it's also a solution.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

Well, yes, thank you for that. I can see that, yes, and I agree it's kind of a convoluted mess with a lot of factors.

Even vampire Undeath though-- to choose only one example-- might be slightly less of a problem if Mdw and Vdestro were nerfed.

As I was saying earlier it isn't just the flat damage it's also the ability to have a charged trait and an extra enchant because DW is just so much better, with or without Masters. Like, god forbid, say I'm wearing draugrkin. I cast Ele Sus on you, barswap, and do a heavy DW attack into rending slashes. I just hit you with like 14 (exaggeration-- too lazy to count,) instances of damage and applied 3 DoTs to you. For free.

The cost increase vampires take to abilities might be more of a deterrent if people actually had to cast abilities, lol.

Chilly-McFreeze

No, balancing pvp combat is not a priority

Not taking sides as I don't play as often anymore. But say, if they just nerf mdw, vet staff, ele sus, maarselok etc. without adjusting the rest of what CameraBeardThePirate pointed out (as it's often the case with Zeni), how would you go about a viable dot build? What do you predict would be the next go-to thing that stands out? And would it be the same call for nerfs to those things then?

CameraBeardThePirate

No, balancing pvp combat is not a priority

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well, yes, thank you for that. I can see that, yes, and I agree it's kind of a convoluted mess with a lot of factors.

Even vampire Undeath though-- to choose only one example-- might be slightly less of a problem if Mdw and Vdestro were nerfed.

As I was saying earlier it isn't just the flat damage it's also the ability to have a charged trait and an extra enchant because DW is just so much better, with or without Masters. Like, god forbid, say I'm wearing draugrkin. I cast Ele Sus on you, barswap, and do a heavy DW attack into rending slashes. I just hit you with like 14 (exaggeration-- too lazy to count,) instances of damage and applied 3 DoTs to you. For free.

The cost increase vampires take to abilities might be more of a deterrent if people actually had to cast abilities, lol.

Lol 14 mightve just been a guess but pretty sure it'd be 11 in actuality so not far off haha.

Yah DW is really strong because of the mix & match opportunities. However, other weapons were brought up to be much closer this last major patch which did help close the gap a little.

Overall I'm of the opinion that Ele Sus is a much bigger problem than Master's or even flat damage in general. There's absolutely no reason that an ability deals that much damage AND increases the damage taken by the target as much as it does (Breach, vulnerability, AND brittle) should still be free to cast.

Vaqual

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Not taking sides as I don't play as often anymore. But say, if they just nerf mdw, vet staff, ele sus, maarselok etc. without adjusting the rest of what CameraBeardThePirate pointed out (as it's often the case with Zeni), how would you go about a viable dot build? What do you predict would be the next go-to thing that stands out? And would it be the same call for nerfs to those things then?

nerf =/= dead
viable =/= overpowered

There is always a sensible middleground to be found, but many people have become so accustomed to just utilizing whatever is broken at the moment that they have come to view overpowered as a baseline for viability. In an ideal scenario, all of the implicated sets and abilities survive the nerf in a usable state. But some of them need adjustments, which will by proxy then also lead to a normalization of other problematic elements. The question is obviously where to start and what is most worth preserving in its current state. And to me Maarselok and the Draugr/Dragon are mostly justified in their strength and only gain their extraordinary power through Ele Sus and MDW.

-Ele sus should receive a substantial Magicka Cost (~3k-ish, on one level with e.g. Mark), and/or the hits could be more spread out over the current tick window, like this: concussion ticks on 0, chill on 2 and burn on 6 (I know its 7.5, you get the idea).
-Changing how dual wield status procs work might be drastic and hurt the flavour of the weapon, but it would certainly be the most logical adjustment to just let the mainhand glyph proc at full strength like on 2h weapons and let the off-hand be greyed out. The changes to status effects and DoT nerfs from U35 clearly favour DW above all other weapons. I do not think this is ideal, it is just an idea of how such changes could look.
-MDW having the flat buff up front is probably justifiable, but having it on every tick is just too much value. The ticks could either receive a partial or a scaling benefit. The hemorraghing on rending slashes is probably also ok.

Result: Resource cost on Ele sus has to be added, it is unsurpassed in its efficiency. Drawing out ticks will reduce the inherent burst potential (with that I mean how much this ability can add to a single burst, not its damage in isolation) and the burst contribution of draugr/dragon. There is less overlap for statuses and power on Maarselok has to be "earned" by other means. Dual Wield loses its unfair advantage, removing one more status for Maarselok and 1-5 ticks per glyph proc, but I still feel this could probably be done better than in my suggestion. Lastly, MDW can stay a good spammable option for everyone that likes to use it for that, while also remaining an excellent dot source. But just not with this amount of flat damage. This should put a dent in this setup overall, while not debilitating anything beyond recognition.

You don't need to dismantle any of those points. These are just examples for effective small scale nerfs.

YetAnotherLinuxUser wrote: »

I just hate it when people come to the forums wanting to nerf some thing that people use and are successful with because it isn't the thing they wish to use or arent succesful with it.

I have healers that can use destro/resto, resto/dw. resto/2h, 2h/dw, bow/dw. i have variety and here you come wanting to take away some of that variety? yah, no thanks.

This comes across as very disconnected and unreflected. A degree of fairness and good balance is integral for any game that has competitive modes. If it was just about co-op nobody would care, sure. Do you not want to feel like you earned your victories?

Necrotech_Master

No, it’s just fine as is

i tried using the master dw for pvp when the 2h maelstrom was changed to remove the bleed dot it did

i did not find it to be that to be any more effective than other stuff i was running

i also rarely see this proc on my death recap, 8/10 of my deaths are usually from gankers, not dots

FoJul

Yes, any minute now

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Hate to be that guy, but if this was going to get a nerf, it would have happened at any point last year.

I highly doubt that ZOS Combat is so backed up that they couldn’t implement a change to Master’s Dual Wield if it was part of their plan.

My guess is that Combat might be putting together another drastic change soon and that might correct the meta we’ve been trapped in, which would be why they aren’t wasting their time with it.

To much hope, don't lie to the children. Zos has abandoned us PvPers.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

@OBJnoob

Being able to do damage while being tanky is literally enabled by elemental susceptibility with an ice staff and undeath. Vate destro isn't actually needed, despite usually doing more than twice the DPS than MDW's flat bonus to the DOT ticks, and you can put a 5pc set on the back bar instead. So is weapon damage stacking to an extent. And using MDW as a front bar spammable prevents you from using an offensive 5pc set on the front bar, so there's an opportunity cost there which the classes that lack a proper instant melee spammable tend to pay.

Elemental susceptibility is so overloaded that its still one of the best abilities to use even without the vate arena weapon. You can't say the same for rending slashes and blood craze without MDW. And with the exception of warden (because deep fissure), every other class on almost every kind of build can effectively back bar an ice staff and use elemental susceptibility because its that good. Yet people don't seem to realize this simply because it doesn't show up on your death recap.

And undeath isn't just a defensive bonus either, because it also allows you to trade damage efficiently against those who aren't using undeath, hence it allows you to be tanky while effectively doing more damage. As for undeath supposedly becoming less of a problem if MDW and vate destro were nerfed (not really true), balorghs with clever alchemist or mechanical acuity says hello. Even rallying cry enables tankiness while being able to do damage.

People have tunnel vision on what they see on death recaps...it seems that even vate destro is complained about more than elemental susceptibility when its really used to supplement it rather than the other way around. Or in other words, they could theoretically sledge hammer MDW and vate destro and players will still be using ice staff elemental susceptibility, but you'd barely see anyone use rendings and bloodcraze without MDW.

OBJnoob

Yes, any minute now

Well... To those of you that replied to me... You are making sense, so fear not, I am understanding what you tell me. And I agree that Ele Sus is the main pain point.

Still, I don't like flat damage values. It's basically what was always wrong with procs... Then they changed almost all of them... And now we're here discussing the ones they didn't change. Doesn't that kinda say it all?

If you want good DoT pressure then you should be on a damage spec using DoTs. Not on a whatever spec using procs. And I'm not against procs... They should just scale to reflect the power of your toon. I understand that DoTs were nerfed and so everyone feels shoehorned into using all this stuff in order to kill... But that's not really justification, is it? It's just the other half of the problem.

For what it's worth I really liked @Vaqual last post. Something like that would be nice.

Arcanasx

No, it’s just fine as is

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

You should also consider that Nbs have concealed weapon, which is the best spammable in the game, and Dks have whip; both morphs are very good. These are instant melee spammables. These classes also happen to be doing very well in PvP partially because they actually have a reliable melee spammable that comes with their class kit. If you think the added DOT pressure from MDW is problematic, it really isn't with how high the current TTK is these days. Meanwhile, those same classes also tend to backbar an ice staff with elemental susceptibility far more than you see them spam rending slashes, at least on PCNA.

Stinging slashes itself has not been updated in about 40 months, and the last change they made for it to do "spammable" levels of damage is actually intended. Nerfing it because its become more common as a result of changes being made throughout the last few years that has lead to an overall increase in TTK, which has then also caused cast time spammables like dizzy swing to lose much of its burst potency, is silly, and would end up creating more problems that it solves.

High TTK is already an issue. Crazy stacked cross-healing is an issue. Undeath is an issue. Getting spammed and status effect stacked by multiple elemental susceptibilities from a distance at a free cost can also be an issue. All a nerf like this would do is make NBs and DKs stronger because they aren't as reliant on MDW, and push other classes into using ranged setups. It would also cause the TTK to increase even more. Anyone who actually believes that we're in an oppressive high damage meta (outside of getting absolutely zerged) is either a relatively new player with a lack of experience of what the games TTK used to be like, misses pre-nerf mara's balm, or has amnesia, because the overall TTK used to be much lower years ago.

The MDW bonus itself was also more potent years ago than it is today, especially when combined with pre-nerfed DOT builds. They gave everyone a free 1000 weapon/spell damage with CP 2.0 which brought ability damage buffs and an even greater healing buff (because healing doesn't get mitigated as much as damage does) which hasn't benefited MDW's unchanged flat damage bonus at all. Yet people weren't complaining about MDW nearly as much back then because there were other effective options and playstyles available. So instead of focusing on nerfing offensive options that currently work, how about we actually bring other offensive options up to par again.

For other arena weapons, look at BRP 2H for example; its completely outclassed and made mostly pointless by Masters 2H. Maybe giving it the weapon damage bonus that they were going to give maelstrom 2H before they changed it to a direct damage bonus would help. Rework maelstrom DW so it has a bonus that actually buffs itself. Add a bonus to maelstrom SnB where light attacking increases the damage of heroic strike/deep slash so you can have that as another spammable option again like before; they might as well because they've already given ice staves offensive options. Give flame and shock reach the frost reach treatment too so ranged magicka builds have more spammable options available, as well as making masters destro more viable.

Offensive "power creep" might be a necessity to help combat the defensive power creep that's been taking place over the last few years if they won't otherwise directly address that defensive power creep that they've created. It would also be really nice if more instant melee spammables were introduced. So having a 5pc set on the FB and another on the BB becomes a more viable setup for classes currently lacking a good and reliable melee spammable, because only using one arena weapon with two 5pc sets means having to sacrifice either your monster 2pc or a mythic, along with missing out on 1pc trainee.

Remember when bleed used to ignore physical resistances? Lol that was when Master's DW was at its peak. Combined with axes proccing its own strong bleed.

I do. I believe that was also when DOT ticks were at 1 second intervals too and I remember being able to see chunks of health being removed by old masters DW with axes lol. Was particularly brutal when stacked with old defile and other DOT abilities when they actually did good damage as well. I also remember old reverb back when it had a 30% defile; which ironically did more pressure than today's MDW. Or old wrecking blow with the knock up stun that could set up easy 20k plus ult combos back when the average health pool was 22-25k.

Which makes you wonder how a lot of these players today who think "MDW does too much pressure plz nerf" would react had they actually played or remembered how the game was back then.

Yeah, lol. MDW these days are nothing. MDW boosted Twin Slashes and its morphs are not really the killer by themselves. Most of the times, I can tank MDW and Vate combo. But it gets definitely harder when there are other proc sets are involved. Something tells me these arena sets aren't really the OP. Do they enable a playstyle? Yes. 'MDW and Vate staff op' threads are quite few patches late imo.

It really does seem players are too focused on what they see on death recaps and consider it stale, and that they havn't fully considered the opportunity costs as well. They likely havn't experienced or don't remember what a true DOT meta feels like either.

I'm pretty sure those who are using MDW with rending slashes are primarily using it as a reliable spammable instead of as a DOT. If classes like sorc, arc, warden and necro actually had proper and basic single target, instant cast melee spammables, they could replace rending slashes with that class spammable. Then they could benefit from an offensive 5pc set on the front bar instead, while also utlilizing their class passives. Which could not only buff the spammable that already does spammable levels of damage, but also everything else as well. Or replace it with another "proc" set for more damage on top.

I also think most players using vate destro look at it this way: I might as well use vate destro to go with my elemental susceptibility. Instead of, I really want to use vate destro, so I'll slot elemental susceptibility because I have to use it to activate it.