Always unkillable opponents

Calastir

No matter how many times I queue with the Group & Activity Finder for Solo Random Battleground, I keep getting grouped with clueless randos against what feels like professionally trained totally maxxed out unkillable opponents who gain 500 points and numerous kills against our 8 points (If we're lucky).

This has been my discouraging experience for weeks now, but let me know your thoughts. (C'mon, I know you want to)

El_Borracho

Because you ARE playing against at least one premade group. Group finder is not 12 randos. Its plugging a handful of randos onto either 3 man premades or onto your ship of fools. If you queue at or around the same time, my guess is that a guild out there runs BGs at that time.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

There is a very small pool of active BG players and we all know each other. Even when it is random, we are all friends.

I can tell you what sets half the people have on before starting.

jaws343

El_Borracho wrote: »

Because you ARE playing against at least one premade group. Group finder is not 12 randos. Its plugging a handful of randos onto either 3 man premades or onto your ship of fools. If you queue at or around the same time, my guess is that a guild out there runs BGs at that time.

The group and solo queues are fully separated. If you are in the solo queue you will never be placed in the the pre-made group queue. You only end up in the group queue if you specifically join the group queue.

TybaltKaine

These arguments don't really hold water if you also expect us to believe that we are matched with people of similar skill levels.

Either the very small group of players are all running low level alts and cheesing new players for AP or there is not really a valid matchmaking system in place.

I believe that people who play with each other enough know how to play together, I get that. What I don't get is how those same players who would realistically have hundreds of hours logged into BG's are facing off against people who barely know the pointy end of the weapon is what goes into the enemy. So much so that the casual player mistakes them for a premade group so often that this thread and others like it should basically be a sticky.

Something in this kitchen stinks.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

There is a massive skill gap between the pool of regular Battleground players and occasional ones.

We regulars often get paired with random people who have zero clue what they are doing.

There just aren’t enough players to have a high level game and low level game going at the same time. At least not at most hours of the day. Instead it’s always one or two good players with two really horrible ones on each team.

We already have to wait 10-20 minutes to find 12 people in the game actually willing to cue for one.

CameraBeardThePirate

TybaltKaine wrote: »

These arguments don't really hold water if you also expect us to believe that we are matched with people of similar skill levels.

Either the very small group of players are all running low level alts and cheesing new players for AP or there is not really a valid matchmaking system in place.

I believe that people who play with each other enough know how to play together, I get that. What I don't get is how those same players who would realistically have hundreds of hours logged into BG's are facing off against people who barely know the pointy end of the weapon is what goes into the enemy. So much so that the casual player mistakes them for a premade group so often that this thread and others like it should basically be a sticky.

Something in this kitchen stinks.

No one is purposefully cheesing anything; ZOS doesn't know how to make a functional MMR system.

MMR is character specific. I play on 3 toons 99% of the time. If I play any other toon besides those 3, I'm matched against players far below my skill level. That shouldn't happen.

Combine that with the extremely low population, and what ends up happening is BG "regulars" happen to get matched on the same team in Solo Queue against players far below their skill level and play together as if they were a group.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Combine that with the extremely low population, and what ends up happening is BG "regulars" happen to get matched on the same team in Solo Queue against players far below their skill level and play together as if they were a group.

^

chessalavakia_ESO

TybaltKaine wrote: »

These arguments don't really hold water if you also expect us to believe that we are matched with people of similar skill levels.

Either the very small group of players are all running low level alts and cheesing new players for AP or there is not really a valid matchmaking system in place.

I believe that people who play with each other enough know how to play together, I get that. What I don't get is how those same players who would realistically have hundreds of hours logged into BG's are facing off against people who barely know the pointy end of the weapon is what goes into the enemy. So much so that the casual player mistakes them for a premade group so often that this thread and others like it should basically be a sticky.

Something in this kitchen stinks.

My impression from some digging around I did in the past was that at one point, the requirements for matchmaking were more strict. You had complaints from players that their queue time ran over 30 minutes and they felt that it was unfair to skilled players.

I could be mistaken but, my guess is that ZOS set the matchmaker to relax the matchmaking requirements the longer someone waits in queue to deal with those complaints.

My higher MMR characters definitely do wait longer in queue than my lower MMR characters but, my opposition and allies are not necessarily always better on the higher MMR characters.

Finally, the incentives for Battlegrounds draw in a bunch of people that aren't actually good at PvP/equipped for it. It's entirely possible that someone could be good enough/equipped enough to slaughter the average MMR players without actually being good enough to avoid getting stomped by the higher MMR players.

SkaraMinoc

3am "MMR" in a nutshell

SkaraMinoc

Also if you get a bad roll on your Solo Queue RNG, an enemy team may be comprised of 4 experienced Deathmatch players. They are basically a premade without comms. They'll follow each other around, attack the same targets, and maybe even run group sets/buffs.

This happened to me the other day. I landed on a team with good players and started getting hate whispers "screw your premade" even though it's Solo Queue

ceruulean

If you're lucky you get a real team that has a "tank" frontliner/brawler, ranged DPS and healer/support. Otherwise if your team consists of 4 glass cannons or solo builds, you're losing.

Daoin

i used to do my daily random dungeon and bg through 8 characters every day and try to get them all done each day, think very rarely it took me more than 2 or 3 attempts to get it done, if after 2 it seemed no joy i would change character and get others done 1st or second time instead. however i dont really need the exp daily anymore but was always much more fun to do than power level up any characters. i mean im only 2790cp over about 6 to 7 years but i think its close enough to cp cap to stop the bg's, used to be alot of fun though win, lose or still get the daily done for joint second. i also never used any sets other than the ones i would use in pve and just maybe change a few skills before start, still never encountered this specific problem, true its been a while since i wanted to bg but if its like that now just cut your losses and wait for it to pick up again in future

ESO_CenturionPlayer

Or you will get a cheesy bash build that is absolutely no fun to play with? I hate having brain dead bashers on my team or enemy teams. Just lame.

Let’s be real. If there are no healers on your team you only have a couple viable builds via sets. I’m sure there are people here who can tell you exactly how to build an OP bash set that requires zero skill.

El_Borracho

jaws343 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Because you ARE playing against at least one premade group. Group finder is not 12 randos. Its plugging a handful of randos onto either 3 man premades or onto your ship of fools. If you queue at or around the same time, my guess is that a guild out there runs BGs at that time.

The group and solo queues are fully separated. If you are in the solo queue you will never be placed in the the pre-made group queue. You only end up in the group queue if you specifically join the group queue.

This, sadly, is not true. I know what it says on the group finder page, but in reality, that is not what happens. Have queued in myself on a 3-man premade in group finder and on a 4-man in group finder. I have queued in as a solo and been placed on a team with the same 3 players in multiple BGs, where they were a 3 man premade, during BG events, no less. PS NA.

Its similar to the public line of "you need to be X level to queue for DLC dungeons on group finder," then pop into Lair of Maarselok and see a Level 22. Whatever group finder is, it is 100% not 12 randos.

SkaraMinoc

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

Or you will get a cheesy bash build that is absolutely no fun to play with? I hate having brain dead bashers on my team or enemy teams. Just lame.

Let’s be real. If there are no healers on your team you only have a couple viable builds via sets. I’m sure there are people here who can tell you exactly how to build an OP bash set that requires zero skill.

A full healer in Battlegrounds is 10x worse than a basher because the healer will completely skew the entire Battleground in their favor. It's not even a close comparison.

Every single class can counter bash builds except Necro.

Dragonknight - DoT DK build is a hard counter to bashers
Sorcerer - High damage Mag Sorc with Hardened Ward and Rallying Cry is extremely difficult to kill as a basher
Nightblade - Unless the basher dips heavily into armor, a good Magblade will kill them.
Templar - Don't use Jesus Beam and you'll be fine. Bash gets 150% additional damage when interrupting the beam.
Warden - Build for Polar Wind and use vines. You probably won't kill the basher but you won't die either.
Arcanist - You are unkillable with Impervious Ward unless the basher is using Acuity and Corrosive/Onslaught. Just block/dodge until the buffs wear off then use your DoTs to kill the basher
Necro - Good luck

Stam Sorcs and weak Mag Sorcs get countered by bash builds because Dark Deal/Conv gives the basher 150% damage.

Lastly, not all bashers are as braindead as you think. It takes intimate knowledge of the combat system and hundreds of hours of play testing to compete at the highest level in PvP. Only spamming bash with Deadlands Demolisher won't get you anywhere. You need to weave in light attacks and skills while bashing and block weaving with recovery ticks. You need good target selection and you need to pick the right poison and backbar enchants. Many players try bash builds and give up.

Daoin

maybe in cyro but in bg it takes no skill, hours or considering yourself at the highest level to get the daily done its RNG with the group you find yourself with and the and against and the bg type you pull which is usually determined by the time of day and that alone for the team. the type, except for weekend events is random. that should or would still be the case were enough people actually bothering with pvp now. the only farcry is the acual quest with in the past means having to get 3 clears in a bg but still nothing to do with the daily exp. and not sure if the actual quest still requires 3. to say you have to be a high end gamer to get the daily done must also be said about the daily random normal exp. would i have to be a high end gamer for this too ?

ESO_CenturionPlayer

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

Or you will get a cheesy bash build that is absolutely no fun to play with? I hate having brain dead bashers on my team or enemy teams. Just lame.

Let’s be real. If there are no healers on your team you only have a couple viable builds via sets. I’m sure there are people here who can tell you exactly how to build an OP bash set that requires zero skill.

A full healer in Battlegrounds is 10x worse than a basher because the healer will completely skew the entire Battleground in their favor. It's not even a close comparison.

Every single class can counter bash builds except Necro.

Here let me help you.

Dragonknight - DoT DK build is a hard counter to bashers
Sorcerer - High damage Mag Sorc with Hardened Ward and Rallying Cry is extremely difficult to kill as a basher
Nightblade - Unless the basher dips heavily into armor, a good Magblade will kill them.
Templar - Don't use Jesus Beam and you'll be fine. Bash gets 150% additional damage when interrupting the beam.
Warden - Build for Polar Wind and use vines. You probably won't kill the basher but you won't die either.
Arcanist - You are unkillable with Impervious Ward unless the basher is using Acuity and Corrosive/Onslaught. Just block/dodge until the buffs wear off then use your DoTs to kill the basher
Necro - Good luck

Stam Sorcs and weak Mag Sorcs get countered by bash builds because Dark Deal/Conv gives the basher 150% damage.

Lastly, not all bashers are as braindead as you think. It takes intimate knowledge of the combat system and hundreds of hours of play testing to compete at the highest level in PvP. Only spamming bash with Deadlands Demolisher won't get you anywhere. You need to weave in light attacks and skills while bashing and block weaving with recovery ticks. You need good target selection and you need to pick the right poisons and backbar enchants. It's easy to build an inefficient bash build and that's why you don't see many of them.

nope. this is totally wrong. i can tell you which person in that screen shot had a brain dead bash build.

if it were easily countered there wouldn’t be an insane imbalance like that.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

it sucks to play with and against people using that build. most people hate seeing them and will avoid cueing for bg’s if they are auto-cuing.

another reason bg’s are absolutely zero fun and no one plays them. other than brain dead builds and noobs.

only one person likes bash builds and it’s the person wearing it.

SkaraMinoc

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

nope. this is totally wrong. i can tell you which person in that screen shot had a brain dead bash build.

if it were easily countered there wouldn’t be an insane imbalance like that.

Everyone had 19k health, no damage, and no healing except for 1 other player. That's why I said "3am MMR in a nutshell" because at 3am in the morning you get matched with bottom tier players due to low population.

A good DK would have gotten the same kills.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

Half the people probably left cause they don’t want to play against or with a cheese build. It is a brain dead build that gets old.

If I see someone playing that way I just leave or try to have my own fun because it’s not at all enjoyable.

SkaraMinoc

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

Half the people probably left cause they don’t want to play against a cheese build. It is a brain dead build that gets old.

Half the people left because there has been no innovation since the release of Battlegrounds 6 years ago.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

Half the people probably left cause they don’t want to play against a cheese build. It is a brain dead build that gets old.

Half the people left because there has been no innovation since the release of Battlegrounds 6 years ago.

nah. they leave cause they see someone dominating battlegrounds with a boring cheese build. it makes the whole bg cueing process horrible. after a few face-melt matches they don’t usually come back.

it’s not fun being around on any team. when you see a name and know exactly what they are wearing and how they play the same cheese build every time… why keep cueing?

one of the reasons the bg population is non-existent. especially when those cheese builds just keep cueing over and over.

SkaraMinoc

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

Half the people probably left cause they don’t want to play against a cheese build. It is a brain dead build that gets old.

Half the people left because there has been no innovation since the release of Battlegrounds 6 years ago.

nah. they leave cause they see someone dominating battlegrounds with a boring cheese build. it makes the whole bg cueing process horrible. after a few face-melt matches they don’t usually come back.

it’s not fun being around on any team. when you see a name and know exactly what they are wearing and how they play the same cheese build every time… why keep cueing?

one of the reasons the bg population is non-existent. especially when those cheese builds just keep cueing over and over.

Well I wouldn't even be in BGs if it weren't for the Gray Host night capping in Cyrodiil. Makes it pointless to try and win a campaign. So you can blame EP for that I lost interest in Battlegrounds after they removed Deathmatch queue.

Also it's not the player's fault for ruining your experience. They are playing within the boundaries defined by the game's ruleset. If you don't like it then you can start a thread in the PvP Combat forum proposing a nerf to bash builds. Although I don't think anyone would take you seriously because bash builds already underperform compared to other builds.

I die way more than you realize.

ESO_CenturionPlayer

Yep. You are right I guess. I’m not blaming the player who finds how to win every BG.

There is another VERY well known map exploiter who takes the chaos-ball and hides in a basically unreachable place.

The brain-dead bash build and map exploiters aren’t cheating. They just make the game so unenjoyable for everyone else that there won’t be many players to cue at all soon.

I’m definitely someone who spent a few hours each day in BG’s and I am totally stopping the grind. I’m not bad, but when I see some person with a brain-dead build or a map exploiter, it’s not worth trying.

Why BG’s are horrid.

Calastir

STUN STUN STUN DEAD

That about sums up the extent of the enemy tactics.
Sometimes I hardly even get off the platform and this happens.

Bashev

From my point of view the only unbalanced build in BGs is 50k health Warden with 3-4k magicka recovery.

The polar wind should be a self heal only. It is one thing to kill a capable healer who does not stack health and it is another one to nuke a 50k health warden.

Calastir

4 Wins and numerous losses after a whole day of trying. Only got 1 new gear with 16 to go for BG. That's a lot. Perhaps too much?

darvaria

ESO_CenturionPlayer wrote: »

There is a very small pool of active BG players and we all know each other. Even when it is random, we are all friends.

I can tell you what sets half the people have on before starting.

AND they make it a point not to focus their "friends". So the randoms get focused. I was a group and one of the "friends" told us this was going to happen. He just stood back and left after a few minutes. A 2nd member left and then the two left stayed in spawn or stealth. The other 2 teams just stood around until games end. They literally did not kill anyone. We did have one more join group and we told him not to run in and get farmed. Of course he thinks he can 1 v 8 and dies a couple times, then leaves.

Why are you even going?

Calastir

Often my teams' kills dont even get counted, while apparently we can get killed by both enemies at the SAME time.

Often we're sent into combat with just 3 players in stead of 4.

And just now the 4th player appeared who got continual damage before he could even step off the platform!

Unless this occurs for everyone, it seems like the game itself is determined on killing my BG team no matter what.

Jierdanit

Calastir wrote: »

Often my teams' kills dont even get counted, while apparently we can get killed by both enemies at the SAME time.

Often we're sent into combat with just 3 players in stead of 4.

And just now the 4th player appeared who got continual damage before he could even step off the platform!

Unless this occurs for everyone, it seems like the game itself is determined on killing my BG team no matter what.

Starting BGs with less than 4 players is pretty common. That just is because the BG queue puts you into the BG directly instead of waiting for everyone to accept the queue, so if someone declines the queue you simply start without that person.

Dont think i have ever had someone lose HP from the start, the only explanation for that i can imagine is that they for some reason are running the vampire skill that drains your hp.

I usually do several high MMR BGs daily on PC EU and rarely have those problems.
Sometimes i get teams against me that have several good players with a healer and of course you cant do anything against that without a similar team yourself, but on average BGs at least seem winnable.

The main problem with BGs is that the matchmaking and MMR system are absolutely horrible. The only thing MMR is based on is how many points you got in total on that particular char, so you are going to reach high MMR at some point no matter if you perform pretty badly in most BGs.
Also the amount of actual high MMR BG players is so low at this point that you are only going to get BGs with full high MMR players during prime time. Mostly its going to be like 3 or 4 good high MMR players in each BG and the rest are people who have very little chance against them.

On top of that the matchmaking doesnt care what role people have, so if you have 3 healers and 9 DDS in the BG in total its not unlikely that instead of 1 healer and 3 dds per team you end up with 1 team having 3 healers and you having zero chance to kill them.

BGs in general have quite some problems. If you end up losing almost all BGs you get into its quite likely that you are in a pretty high MMR at this point and just cant really compete with the actually good players in that MMR.