Endless Archive post

Castagere

So it would seem unless your geared right it is not so solo-friendly. They just couldn't let it be a simple dungeon crawl like other games do.

Katheriah

Have you tried it yet on PTS?

I was on PTS in a fairly outdated build and a companion that's far from optimized. I breezed through arc 1, although some trial bosses can be a bit more thingy. I also did arc 2, but I admit I'm a bit lazy so I didn't go any further on PTS.

I personally do not think it should be nerfed further. Do you believe they should do that?

Tandor

I don't think it needs to be nerfed as such, simply that if they intend that all kinds of players should participate then there should be difficulty options such as normal and veteran - with the normal level being based on ordinary public dungeons. At the moment on PTS those who would aim for a normal level won't get far enough to get any lasting satisfaction from it, and those who would aim for veteran content won't consider the rewards worthwhile not least given the amount of time they'll spend running through the trash stages. The fact that those finding the bosses tough whether at low or high level only have 3 lives before they have to start the entire run again because of the lack of any checkpoints or saves will also prove to be a big deterrent.

Elsonso

Katheriah wrote: »

Have you tried it yet on PTS?

I was on PTS in a fairly outdated build and a companion that's far from optimized. I breezed through arc 1, although some trial bosses can be a bit more thingy. I also did arc 2, but I admit I'm a bit lazy so I didn't go any further on PTS.

I personally do not think it should be nerfed further. Do you believe they should do that?

My feeling is that if more than 50% of the people who attempt Arc 1 use more than 1 thread to complete it, or don't even complete it, then nerf it.

sarahthes

Tandor wrote: »

I don't think it needs to be nerfed as such, simply that if they intend that all kinds of players should participate then there should be difficulty options such as normal and veteran - with the normal level being based on ordinary public dungeons. At the moment on PTS those who would aim for a normal level won't get far enough to get any lasting satisfaction from it, and those who would aim for veteran content won't consider the rewards worthwhile not least given the amount of time they'll spend running through the trash stages. The fact that those finding the bosses tough whether at low or high level only have 3 lives before they have to start the entire run again because of the lack of any checkpoints or saves will also prove to be a big deterrent.

Arc 1 is the normal version. To get your weekly coffer you only need to complete arc 1.

sarahthes

Elsonso wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

Have you tried it yet on PTS?

I was on PTS in a fairly outdated build and a companion that's far from optimized. I breezed through arc 1, although some trial bosses can be a bit more thingy. I also did arc 2, but I admit I'm a bit lazy so I didn't go any further on PTS.

I personally do not think it should be nerfed further. Do you believe they should do that?

My feeling is that if more than 50% of the people who attempt Arc 1 use more than 1 thread to complete it, or don't even complete it, then nerf it.

Arc 1 should be on par with normal maelstrom in my opinion.

Elsonso

sarahthes wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

Have you tried it yet on PTS?

I was on PTS in a fairly outdated build and a companion that's far from optimized. I breezed through arc 1, although some trial bosses can be a bit more thingy. I also did arc 2, but I admit I'm a bit lazy so I didn't go any further on PTS.

I personally do not think it should be nerfed further. Do you believe they should do that?

My feeling is that if more than 50% of the people who attempt Arc 1 use more than 1 thread to complete it, or don't even complete it, then nerf it.

Arc 1 should be on par with normal maelstrom in my opinion.

I have to admit it is a long time since I did that content. I find it boring, so I tend to lose interest long before I get to the end. I do think it is a steep learn for the average player.

What I hope ZOS has tried to create here is a bridge that can fit between overland and the 4-player dungeons and the solo arenas. This could be an adequate set of training wheels, if they do it right. Players can start out with a friend and do content until they get confident, then solo early content until they get to the point where they need a friend, again. They can repeat that until they reach their level of incompetence.

However, if this content is viewed, accurately or not, as an end game arena requiring end game gear and high DPS, I fear that the players who can benefit the most from something like this will just ignore it.

Buffy121

I found Arc 1 difficult to do with my companion. I got wiped by some bosses and found the Arc boss and quest boss really difficult. I have a champion level character. I am not an end level player. If the developers want people at all levels to be able to complete the daily quest they probably need to make it easier.

I know this is unfair to end game players so another idea that I read from a forum poster would be to have a veteran level which starts at a later arc and gives more rewards.

As it stands now I think quite a few casual players will find this daily quest too difficult to complete.

Gray_howling_parrot

There’s no reason for normal and veteran modes in this. It’s supposed to be similar to rogue-likes NOT an actual rogue-like.

The difficulty is there for the people that want it and want to continue but the point for a lot of people is to experiment with builds and combinations of sets/skills - prioritizing defense over offense, bringing a tank companion or healer companion for instance. Arc 1 is made to be extremely easy for people that just want to pop in there and maybe do the daily but for the people that want challenge, it’s made to scale up quickly.

It 1000% doesn’t need to be nerfed. The vast majority of people testing it have asked for the lowering of add waves, which we got, and for difficulty to scale a bit faster, which we got. The big thing is making it rewarding enough to entice players to keep coming back once the honeymoon effect has died down.

Buffy121

I wonder if the people testing it are casual players though. They are dedicated enough to download the PTS and test new stuff. Maybe the player base on the PTS consists of people capable of playing at a high level or housing enthusiasts like me. It is unusual for me to test dungeons and stuff like that but I was intrigued by the concept of an endless dungeon.

I don't know anyone else personally who plays on the PTS so this is just guesswork.

Maitsukas

Buffy121 wrote: »

I wonder if the people testing it are casual players though. They are dedicated enough to download the PTS and test new stuff. Maybe the player base on the PTS consists of people capable of playing at a high level or housing enthusiasts like me. It is unusual for me to test dungeons and stuff like that but I was intrigued by the concept of an endless dungeon.

I don't know anyone else personally who plays on the PTS so this is just guesswork.

I'm a casual, and I spent basically the whole first week in the Endless Archive, seeing what bosses can be faced in there. Trial bosses and some DLC Dungeon bosses are difficult for me to take on with my Companion healer, especially if I don't get the right buffs from the previous Stage.

I haven't reached farther than the second Arc though.

Buffy121

Funnily enough I didn't die while fighting the Arc boss or the quest boss. It was a few of the bosses from other parts of the game that were the main problem. There was a great big lizard thing that jumped up and then splatted me as it fell back down I used all 3 of my threads up with that one.

Castagere

The issue is that in hyping this up ZOS claimed it would be done solo or with a companion.. ZOS lately seems to be making claims that are not true to me. That was the reason behind my post. I get that some of you are afraid of it being turned into what overland is like. And when I said that it should be easier that is not what I wanted. The bosses in this thing are over-the-top OP like most of the group content bosses are. So for me as a real casual player, this content will be just another thing I will skip doing and I'm fine with that. My point was ZOS's false claim.

spartaxoxo

Arc 1 should be public dungeon level. Arc 2 should be normal dungeon level. Arc 3 and up should be vet content that gets harder and harder. Because that's how the playerbase actually scales. Just my opinion.

Elsonso

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arc 1 should be public dungeon level. Arc 2 should be normal dungeon level. Arc 3 and up should be vet content that gets harder and harder. Because that's how the playerbase actually scales. Just my opinion.

I think there is room for more Arcs between Normal and Veteran.

Braffin

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arc 1 should be public dungeon level. Arc 2 should be normal dungeon level. Arc 3 and up should be vet content that gets harder and harder. Because that's how the playerbase actually scales. Just my opinion.

I think there is room for more Arcs between Normal and Veteran.

I don't think so, as the vast majority of the playerbase is perfectly capable of running at least base game vet dungeons.

Besides that there is more than enough easy content available for anyone interested. It's called overland and is about 95% of this game's content.

I advise you to a least try EA before judging.

Elsonso

Braffin wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arc 1 should be public dungeon level. Arc 2 should be normal dungeon level. Arc 3 and up should be vet content that gets harder and harder. Because that's how the playerbase actually scales. Just my opinion.

I think there is room for more Arcs between Normal and Veteran.

I don't think so, as the vast majority of the playerbase is perfectly capable of running at least base game vet dungeons.

Even if I don't agree with your assessment of the "vast majority", which I don't, you have to consider that the people who do not do veteran content can also play Endless Archive and can benefit from more than one Arc between Normal and Veteran.

Braffin

Elsonso wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arc 1 should be public dungeon level. Arc 2 should be normal dungeon level. Arc 3 and up should be vet content that gets harder and harder. Because that's how the playerbase actually scales. Just my opinion.

I think there is room for more Arcs between Normal and Veteran.

I don't think so, as the vast majority of the playerbase is perfectly capable of running at least base game vet dungeons.

Even if I don't agree with your assessment of the "vast majority", which I don't, you have to consider that the people who do not do veteran content can also play Endless Archive and can benefit from more than one Arc between Normal and Veteran.

I disagree, as they are free to repeat Arc 1 as much as they like anyways. Indeed I could only see more low-difficulty Arcs as an option if it's made possible to choose every Arc already beaten as starting point. Otherwise it's just becoming more tedious for us average players to reach the more interesting fights.

Zastrix

Braffin wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arc 1 should be public dungeon level. Arc 2 should be normal dungeon level. Arc 3 and up should be vet content that gets harder and harder. Because that's how the playerbase actually scales. Just my opinion.

I think there is room for more Arcs between Normal and Veteran.

I don't think so, as the vast majority of the playerbase is perfectly capable of running at least base game vet dungeons.

Even if I don't agree with your assessment of the "vast majority", which I don't, you have to consider that the people who do not do veteran content can also play Endless Archive and can benefit from more than one Arc between Normal and Veteran.

I disagree, as they are free to repeat Arc 1 as much as they like anyways. Indeed I could only see more low-difficulty Arcs as an option if it's made possible to choose every Arc already beaten as starting point. Otherwise it's just becoming more tedious for us average players to reach the more interesting fights.

Exactly this. If it's too difficult for you, you can just reset the instance and go again. I personally dislike normal/vet dungeons as they're childsplay. Vet HM DLC level of difficulty is what I like and I'd like to be able to enter ASAP on that level. If it weren't I'd probably just do some runs to get my gear and never-ever touch it again. Having it procedural generated *and* on a high level is a godbless when I don't have anything to do as I'm a junkie for the combat in this game.

spartaxoxo

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arc 1 should be public dungeon level. Arc 2 should be normal dungeon level. Arc 3 and up should be vet content that gets harder and harder. Because that's how the playerbase actually scales. Just my opinion.

I think there is room for more Arcs between Normal and Veteran.

I disagree. The longer it takes to get hard, the worst it will feel for people looking for a challenge. And I don't see many casuals players wanting endless fights.

The typical fantasy concept of this type of content is it starts out easy and then gets progressively more difficult. So, I think having the first arc be tuned to be easy for everyone to do makes sense. Let people get their endeavors or dailies done here.

And then, putting the second arc to normal dungeons also makes sense so that the difficulty spike isn't literally insane when moving from arc 1 to arc 2.

After that though, it needs to be vet content. It keeps it fair for both parties. Casuals can repeat arcs 1 and 2. Let 3 and up be for vet players. There's plenty of average skilled players that can do vet dungeons anyway.

Wolf_Eye

I think ZOS will be paying attention to the data they get when this goes live.

If not enough people complete Arc 1 (by whatever metrics they use), then it will likely be nerfed. If they're satisfied by the amount of people completing Arc 1, then it won't be nerfed.

That's my prediction.

I still maintain that players looking for a harder challenge will likely become bored with this, as they would still have to go through the "boring easy Arc" (that's like overland) every single time they want to get to the harder stuff. And I imagine they might get too sick of that after the shiny newness of it wears off.

And players that are ultra casual and find this too tough would not even bother with it.

I think it needs tweaking in many ways. I'm worried that this would end up not satisfying anybody in the long run.

spartaxoxo

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I think it needs tweaking in many ways. I'm worried that this would end up not satisfying anybody in the long run.

I think most people expect an easy start. It's the norm for this type of content. They should really have save points.

XSTRONG

Castagere wrote: »

So it would seem unless your geared right it is not so solo-friendly. They just couldn't let it be a simple dungeon crawl like other games do.

I think Zos want to make Arc 1 really easy so people can clear daily but yes they are probably more focused on the 2 player aspect of the dungeon more then players solo it.

So my guess is Arc 1 will be easy solo for many but maybe a pain in the ace for some who cant solo worldbosses overland so a tip try solo some wb before it launches

Ra'Shtar

The average player doesn't need to participate in every new piece of content, i would know since i havn't even done normal trials since i started playing again, from what i have seen in videos if you can't even get through arc 1 then you are not an average player, you are well below one. There is literally no timers from what i saw or enrage mechanics, get some purple set that provides tankiness and you can get through with the crazy buffs you get inside.

XSTRONG

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

The average player doesn't need to participate in every new piece of content, i would know since i havn't even done normal trials since i started playing again, from what i have seen in videos if you can't even get through arc 1 then you are not an average player, you are well below one. There is literally no timers from what i saw or enrage mechanics, get some purple set that provides tankiness and you can get through with the crazy buffs you get inside.

If an average eso player only can clear Arc 1 and nothing after that I think EA needs a rework.

Single mode and duo mode.

Necrotech_Master

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I think ZOS will be paying attention to the data they get when this goes live.

If not enough people complete Arc 1 (by whatever metrics they use), then it will likely be nerfed. If they're satisfied by the amount of people completing Arc 1, then it won't be nerfed.

That's my prediction.

I still maintain that players looking for a harder challenge will likely become bored with this, as they would still have to go through the "boring easy Arc" (that's like overland) every single time they want to get to the harder stuff. And I imagine they might get too sick of that after the shiny newness of it wears off.

And players that are ultra casual and find this too tough would not even bother with it.

I think it needs tweaking in many ways. I'm worried that this would end up not satisfying anybody in the long run.

this is how i see it

i think they will likely make 2 adjustments down the road:

1. adjusting the difficulty scaling
2. allow people to set their start point from a later arc (up to the highest one reached), but you would get no verses or visions from "previous" arcs which may actually be more challenging

point 1 will likely happen if they see too many people failing arc 1, and i see them implementing point 2 to help entice the more sweaty players to continue replaying

Ra'Shtar

XSTRONG wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

The average player doesn't need to participate in every new piece of content, i would know since i havn't even done normal trials since i started playing again, from what i have seen in videos if you can't even get through arc 1 then you are not an average player, you are well below one. There is literally no timers from what i saw or enrage mechanics, get some purple set that provides tankiness and you can get through with the crazy buffs you get inside.

If an average eso player only can clear Arc 1 and nothing after that I think EA needs a rework.

Single mode and duo mode.

At some point there needs to be personal responsibility, I dislike Maelstrom Arena so i do not take part in it, it is literally impossible to create content everyone likes, i know people who hate antiquities but i personally love the system, anyways what i am trying to say is that if you want to partake in content but do not want to put even a smidgeon of effort to complete it then you are one in the wrong, i see people in this game are as entitled as ever when it comes to demanding X piece of content caters to them instead of other people, Endless Archive is a place where you challenge higher difficulty the higher you go for more rewards, but nothing is stopping anyone from running Arc 1 and Arc 2 instead of climbing higher, you can't shower people with awesome loot if they don't put any effort to get it, I do not pvp yet i don't make forum posts telling the devs to give me pvp rewards so i'm not sad, i don't put effort so i get nothing.

Holycannoli

If I can't solo Endless Archive with my companion I'm not interested.

XSTRONG

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

XSTRONG wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

The average player doesn't need to participate in every new piece of content, i would know since i havn't even done normal trials since i started playing again, from what i have seen in videos if you can't even get through arc 1 then you are not an average player, you are well below one. There is literally no timers from what i saw or enrage mechanics, get some purple set that provides tankiness and you can get through with the crazy buffs you get inside.

If an average eso player only can clear Arc 1 and nothing after that I think EA needs a rework.

Single mode and duo mode.

At some point there needs to be personal responsibility, I dislike Maelstrom Arena so i do not take part in it, it is literally impossible to create content everyone likes, i know people who hate antiquities but i personally love the system, anyways what i am trying to say is that if you want to partake in content but do not want to put even a smidgeon of effort to complete it then you are one in the wrong, i see people in this game are as entitled as ever when it comes to demanding X piece of content caters to them instead of other people, Endless Archive is a place where you challenge higher difficulty the higher you go for more rewards, but nothing is stopping anyone from running Arc 1 and Arc 2 instead of climbing higher, you can't shower people with awesome loot if they don't put any effort to get it, I do not pvp yet i don't make forum posts telling the devs to give me pvp rewards so i'm not sad, i don't put effort so i get nothing.

I understand what youre saying and im pretty sure alot of eso players will get past Arc 1 but I think Zos wants this to be a playground for every player.

Now if you are new thats diffrent, find better gear and grow more xp.

But if the majority of players cant get past Arc 1 thats not good and I think Zos thinks the same.

Braffin

XSTRONG wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

XSTRONG wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

The average player doesn't need to participate in every new piece of content, i would know since i havn't even done normal trials since i started playing again, from what i have seen in videos if you can't even get through arc 1 then you are not an average player, you are well below one. There is literally no timers from what i saw or enrage mechanics, get some purple set that provides tankiness and you can get through with the crazy buffs you get inside.

If an average eso player only can clear Arc 1 and nothing after that I think EA needs a rework.

Single mode and duo mode.

At some point there needs to be personal responsibility, I dislike Maelstrom Arena so i do not take part in it, it is literally impossible to create content everyone likes, i know people who hate antiquities but i personally love the system, anyways what i am trying to say is that if you want to partake in content but do not want to put even a smidgeon of effort to complete it then you are one in the wrong, i see people in this game are as entitled as ever when it comes to demanding X piece of content caters to them instead of other people, Endless Archive is a place where you challenge higher difficulty the higher you go for more rewards, but nothing is stopping anyone from running Arc 1 and Arc 2 instead of climbing higher, you can't shower people with awesome loot if they don't put any effort to get it, I do not pvp yet i don't make forum posts telling the devs to give me pvp rewards so i'm not sad, i don't put effort so i get nothing.

I understand what youre saying and im pretty sure alot of eso players will get past Arc 1 but I think Zos wants this to be a playground for every player.

Now if you are new thats diffrent, find better gear and grow more xp.

But if the majority of players cant get past Arc 1 thats not good and I think Zos thinks the same.

You are right.

But that's purely hypothetical given the current difficulty of Arc 1.

Wolf_Eye

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I think ZOS will be paying attention to the data they get when this goes live.

If not enough people complete Arc 1 (by whatever metrics they use), then it will likely be nerfed. If they're satisfied by the amount of people completing Arc 1, then it won't be nerfed.

That's my prediction.

I still maintain that players looking for a harder challenge will likely become bored with this, as they would still have to go through the "boring easy Arc" (that's like overland) every single time they want to get to the harder stuff. And I imagine they might get too sick of that after the shiny newness of it wears off.

And players that are ultra casual and find this too tough would not even bother with it.

I think it needs tweaking in many ways. I'm worried that this would end up not satisfying anybody in the long run.

this is how i see it

i think they will likely make 2 adjustments down the road:

1. adjusting the difficulty scaling
2. allow people to set their start point from a later arc (up to the highest one reached), but you would get no verses or visions from "previous" arcs which may actually be more challenging

point 1 will likely happen if they see too many people failing arc 1, and i see them implementing point 2 to help entice the more sweaty players to continue replaying

Yeah your point number two was something I was expecting to be part and parcel of the launch version, and was surprised when it wasn't. Some would argue that it would threaten the integrity of the leaderboards, but there are options around this:

Option 1: Not everyone who wants a challenge wants to be on the leaderboards, so you could make it so that skipping Arcs disqualifies you from the leaderboards

Option 2: Everyone equally has the ability to skip the first two Arcs (if they so choose). This essentially means that everyone on the leaderboards has the same head start if they want to use it.

Option 3: (which is what you suggested) You have the ability to skip the first two Arcs, but it comes at a cost; you not get any verses/visions from the Arcs you skipped. But you also don't get any score from the monsters you skipped too (I think that's how the scores work? I dunno; I'm not very familiar with how the scores work in ESO).

This might encourage potential leaderboard chasers to do the first two Arcs anyways (to avoid missing out on the verses and the monster killing, both of which might help their score), while also allowing the people who don't care about the leaderboards to skip ahead and still get to something they'd want to do.


Or it could be some other combination of these things. Maybe even sacrifice one of your threads to skip, I dunno. As long as it levels the playing field, as I know fairness is a very big deal among leaderboard pushers.