Let's make major wrong behavior list which noob player should not do in group dungeon.

AvalonRanger

svendf wrote: »

As a DD, don´t que as anything, but a DD

Don´t speedrun. Don´t skip.
If you see a high cp support role. Don´t assume they know everything, as it could be a new character (Tank, Healer).
A WW isn´t a tank. Now you know.
Skip the Paleorder ring - it´s a solo item.
Everythin can be leveled in Overland. Why are you using a Resto staff or taunt as a dd - slot something else.

Outside Dungeons:

If you see a low level leveling. Don´t blast everything in the area just because you can, and want to look cool. You aint cool. Leave the new player´s alone and let them level.

"Why are you using a Resto staff or taunt as a dd - slot something else."
Agree. Restoration staff is healer's gear, so doesn't have much of passive damage buff.
Basic logic learning is the most important lesson for the new players.

svendf

AvalonRanger wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

As a DD, don´t que as anything, but a DD

Don´t speedrun. Don´t skip.
If you see a high cp support role. Don´t assume they know everything, as it could be a new character (Tank, Healer).
A WW isn´t a tank. Now you know.
Skip the Paleorder ring - it´s a solo item.
Everythin can be leveled in Overland. Why are you using a Resto staff or taunt as a dd - slot something else.

Outside Dungeons:

If you see a low level leveling. Don´t blast everything in the area just because you can, and want to look cool. You aint cool. Leave the new player´s alone and let them level.

"Why are you using a Resto staff or taunt as a dd - slot something else."
Agree. Restoration staff is healer's gear, so doesn't have much of passive damage buff.
Basic logic learning is the most important lesson for the new players.

Mmmm. Agreed - maybe I just fail to see the bigger picture. Because there is reason for everything on part of the user. Maybe it´s a way of counter a healer slot taken by a dd, with no intent to use any heals.

Soarora

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Hard disagree with not using a resto staff or shield as a DD.

If I'm pulling my weight as a DPS, I can wear what I want. Use the marking system to ID the tank, or give them crown (which is best practice) if you are worried about role confusion. Healer can be marked with Icon as well.

You don't get to kick me because my axe and shield DD build doesn't fit some weird criteria you have.

If a DPS uses a restro but no restro skills then fine. If I catch a DPS using radiating regen or a heal circle or something, and I’m healing, I quit. Same thing for DPS with snb. If you’re taunting with puncture, you’re tanking, I’m out because my role is already filled.

AvalonRanger

Basic gear-weight purpose

[Tank=Heavy gear with 1 hand and 1shield]
Very Simple!! Because tank need biggest damage mitigation than any other roles.
Toughness is more important rather than damage.

[Stamina damage Dealer= Middle gear]
Stamina DD player combat range is closer than Magika base DD.
So need little bit strong armor than Magika DD.
And, have stamina bonus. So It's also meaningful for the ranged bow fighter.

[Magika damage Dealer and Healer= Light gear]
Light gear has much of Magika DD passive bonus, but very squashy.
Should have some emergency evading skill to protect yourself.
(Damage shield, avoid damage AoE, avoid short range combat)

By the way, Every role must equip 1 self healing skill. Don't blame real Healer always.

TybaltKaine

A DD can use any weapon they want, full stop. Wearing a resto staff doesn't stop me from slotting what I need to deal damage. Using basic weapon attacks I can spot heal while the healer is down, I restore magicka with full heavy attacks and I can still do all the damage I need to with class skills and guild/world skills.

Sword and board allows me flexibility as well to control secondary mobs with power bash while still doing damage.

There is zero downside to a player using either of those weapons as long as they play their role appropriately.

EDIT: Telling every role to have a self-heal then saying a DD can't wear resto is counter intuitive. A fully specced resto staff increases heals, which increases a DD survivability. If I use Echoing Vigor as my spot heal I also contribute to the group heal as well.

Locking DD into specific weapons isn't helpful.

AvalonRanger

TybaltKaine wrote: »

A DD can use any weapon they want, full stop. Wearing a resto staff doesn't stop me from slotting what I need to deal damage. Using basic weapon attacks I can spot heal while the healer is down, I restore magicka with full heavy attacks and I can still do all the damage I need to with class skills and guild/world skills.

Sword and board allows me flexibility as well to control secondary mobs with power bash while still doing damage.

There is zero downside to a player using either of those weapons as long as they play their role appropriately.

Well...If your tank and healer are not fake, you should concentrate damage amount.
I know crappy almost fake tank and bad healer keep killing decent DD in PUG team.
But new noob player should learn basic combat system of ESO rather than twisted way.

Resolving Vigor PVP skill provide reliable self healing. Once you get Lv10, then you can get it in Cyrodiil.
And each class have something self healing skill also.

Hexos' Ward Set with Critical Charge(100% critical) of two hand skill can always generate powerful damage shield.
(Or high critical rate attack)

There're many way to protect yourself without healing staff or shield as Damage Dealer.
Moreover, in Vet dungeon, only real tank can protect your team from dangerous damage.

So If you're DD, then must go real DD. That's the basic.

Amottica

The list is not needed since it serves no viable purpose. Such a small percentage of the game's population frequents the forums so that those that the OP is trying to speak to will never see it. Those who are doing some of the things on purpose will continue to do so because they do not care about what someone else wants them do to.

So the list is an exercise in futility.

Oh, and the list leaves out what should have been the first point made. Tank must have and use taunt. One point is a fake healer but ignores fake tanks and somehow makes the main point about someone taunting off the tank.

Oh, and that person taunting off the tank is, in most cases, new or new to the skill they are using and does not realize what they are doing.

Mesite

w

Soarora wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

If I'm pulling my weight as a DPS, I can wear what I want.
You don't get to kick me because my axe and shield DD build doesn't fit some weird criteria you have.

If a DPS uses a restro but no restro skills then fine. If I catch a DPS using radiating regen or a heal circle or something, and I’m healing, I quit. Same thing for DPS with snb. If you’re taunting with puncture, you’re tanking, I’m out because my role is already filled.

Don't quit if everything is going well?

AvalonRanger

TybaltKaine wrote: »

A DD can use any weapon they want, full stop. Wearing a resto staff ...

Yes, but "NO YOU CAN'T".

If you're not noob, then you may know some dungeon has specific target which DD must destroy it
as first as you can. Otherwise, everyone will be dead including toughest real tank.
In Vet dungeon, DD role is more important than normal. Not being just follower player.

And, noob must learn those mech from normal dungeon experience.

So, DD must have bigger damage than tank and healer. Some people keep saying like "damage amount is
not necessary, if you can deal some damage, then everyone are damage dealer".

Wrong. I think that people who keep saying like that are noob.

DD style weapon and apparel has much of passive damage buff than other gears.
DD can equip any weapon, but there is no reason doing nonsense combat build as DD.

If DD people equip healing staff or shield in Vet dungeon, then you'll be kicked.

TybaltKaine

Stop trying to be the arbiter of how people play.

Braffin

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Stop trying to be the arbiter of how people play.

I don't agree often with you, but this time I do.

Well said!

El_Borracho

The resto staff back bar is a PVP setup. I can't imagine a situation where that adds to your DPS as a DD in a PVE dungeon. I know you can run damage class abilities with a resto, but why? A class heal or Vigor is going to work better for a self heal, and if there is a healer in group, your resto staff abilities on a DD are unnecessary.

As for running a S&B, I guess there has to be some PVE build out there where you can do enough damage. If so, great. But running S&B front bar and a Resto staff back bar? Come on. The base dungeons are easy, and the other DDs will probably make up the gap, but its such an obvious PVP build that you will get kicked out of a vet DLC dungeon.

You could spend all day convincing the group that your S&B/Resto build can crank 100K, but the legacy of PVPers trying to get carried through something like vMOS for the Balorgh helm is working heavily against you.

EDIT: Saw the follow-up posts. An off tank in a dungeon is not needed. As a tank, I would rather see a DD do DPS. Don't need help with "secondary mobs," whatever that is. I can't even think of a dungeon where the adds have ever overwhelmed a group to the point a second tank is needed. Earthen Root and Scrivener's are the 2 I can think of with the hardest adds, and I've never wished for help from a second tank. The only time I have used a taunt as a DD is with Rizzuk in Frostvault to pull him away from Avalanche so we can kill him easier.

As a DD, I would prefer not to be the only DPS while watching the other DD taunt adds instead of melt them. Again, if you can do the DPS on you build, terrific. But now, hearing that this build is a Tank/Healer/DD, I can see why you would get booted from vet dungeons. You are not doing your role as a DD, plus you are stepping on the roles of the tank and/or healer. Sticking to your role in a dungeon (or raid) is a skill, too. Its not "forcing others to play your style." I know I get upset when a DD steals taunt from me in a dungeon, and I know healers hate it when someone else heals. That's how groups are set up in ESO. Otherwise, we'd have 4 Tank/Healer/DDs as the permanent setup.

autocookies

deleted

boi_anachronism_

svendf wrote: »

I fail to understand why a dd need a resto staff on bb or fb unless a dd took the healer spot. With a healer on the healer spot ? I just need to learn I guess. Can´t know everything.

So ofc Im sorry that it is received in the wrong way.

I dont count them as a fake healer if they got a resto and run some groups heals. If they are doing the role thats all ask. Heck ive had to tank a dugeon as a dd. Not on purpose more because we didnt have one but still. I dont really care if your primary is dps for that toon if you can and will do the job of the role adequately.

As far as resto? They may just be leveling the skill line tbh. Normal random, especially first of the day makes it really easy. Also some newbies may not be confident in their healers bc of fake roles or they may be using an overland build bc they either dont have another or they sont totally understand how roles work for 4man yet.

Braffin

@El_Borracho you're right of course, when you say, that s&b/resto will always be a significant loss of dps compared to more offensive builds. But that's not the question imo, but if the dps provided is sufficient to clear the dungeon in a reasonable amount of time (let's say 1,5 the time, which is given for speedrun as a loose mark).

If a DD is able to do so I see no reason to tell him to do otherwise. So, what's viable is dependent by chosen content (vFG 1 will have different requirements than vet DLC) and provided dps. Otherwise we'd have to say, that a DD has to maximize dps at all cost and consequently demand meta-builds or kick otherwise.

I'm not denying, that most players using s&b/resto fail to provide sufficient dps btw. But they are no exception in doing so: We all know, that a lot of players succeed in delivering fake-dps with any weapon put in their hands, and I'd rather prefer to run some content with a s&b/resto-player providing solid 25k dps (easily doable with a slightly adjusted PvP-build for example) than with a 5k bow/bow-LA-spammer.

Bad performance and bad attitude are a reason to kick, not unorthodox yet sufficient build-decisions.

Mesite

My stamarc has a restoration staff cos it's the only venomous smite weapon I have at the moment to count towards the 5 piece bonus. I haven't done any vet trials with him, obvs, but is it possible that using a bad weapon that gives a good 5 piece armour buff could outweigh good weapons that give a bad buff?

boi_anachronism_

Mesite wrote: »

My stamarc has a restoration staff cos it's the only venomous smite weapon I have at the moment to count towards the 5 piece bonus. I haven't done any vet trials with him, obvs, but is it possible that using a bad weapon that gives a good 5 piece armour buff could outweigh good weapons that give a bad buff?

See this was exactly a point i made in my last post. Experienced players take for granted in some cases that we have so many full sets available to us. I have atleast 5 for my tank not including monster helms. Lost track of the dps sets. Not everyone has that yet.

El_Borracho

@Braffin totally agree that all that matters is the DPS the DD puts out, regardless of the build. Seen some crazy Bow/Bow builds over the last couple of years to believe that. If you can get to comparable DPS levels as the other DDs, more power to you. I do have a hard time believing that could happen on a Tank/Healer/DD build, but I've been wrong before.

Bad attitude and bad performance should be the only reasons someone gets the boot. At the same time, the reality of using a S&B/Resto build in a vet DLC dungeon is that most players will assume you are a PVPer looking for a free ride. Its not much different than the PVPer who tries to pass themselves off as a werewolf tank. You might be able to do it, but most PVE-centric players have seen enough fake tanks and fake DDs in these situations that they are predisposed to kick them before getting bogged down in a dungeon

TybaltKaine

El_Borracho wrote: »

snip.

I never said I was running both. I said that a person can run them as a DD and still be effective.

I can absolutely wreck shop on S&B without having a taunt slotted.

I can absolutely wreck shop with a resto staff and not have a single resto skill slotted.

Nowhere in any of my posts did I say I was running a solo build.

I dunno where you got that from.

AvalonRanger

Both Dragon of Elsweyr and HallowStorm of Skyrim are good 4 men group combat testing
place for the noob players.

"Should I go Vet dungeon? or should keep staying in normal?"

If your tank character can't deal 3 dangerous foe including 5 mobs at once in the
HallowStorm mission, or can't protect enough yourself from Dragon breath in the Elsweyr
without healer. Then, you should not come to Vet dungeon as tank.

If your damage dealer character can't take down "pike of HallowStorm" by solo with 1 real tank support.
Then, you should not come to Vet dungeon as damage dealer. Both your damage amount and combat tactics
are not ready for Vet yet. Don't come to Banishing Cell2 Vet as DD seriously.

If your healer character can't save 2DD(CP above 400) from damage AoE in HallowStorm,
Then, you should not come to Vet dungeon as healer. At least, let them alive more than 3 min will be better.

Those're my regulation from my experience. May not precise. But I think it makes sense mostly.

(Real end-game 1DD and 1tank can deal HallowStorm. Only 2player can take down it within
10min or more faster. I actually did it several times with 1DD as tank.)

AvalonRanger

Each role has different purpose to make the pledge successful.

Of course, In the ESO people can build your character which you like,
or can equip your favorite gear.

But if you come to dungeon with wearing light apparel as tank, then you're fake.
Even you have taunt or shield, you're nonsense. And be kicked.

Because developer doesn't design the ESO like that way as group mission.
You can do anything you want, but in solo mission only.

Amottica

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Each role has different purpose to make the pledge successful.

Of course, In the ESO people can build your character which you like,
or can equip your favorite gear.

But if you come to dungeon with wearing light apparel as tank, then you're fake.
Even you have taunt or shield, you're nonsense. And be kicked.

Because developer doesn't design the ESO like that way as group mission.
You can do anything you want, but in solo mission only.

These are not ESO rules but personal rules.

We can also add that when we queue for a random group of players we are specifically asking for randomness in pretty much everything possible. Certainly, we can kick players we deem unfit or quit the group, but we did ask for the possibility of players who do not meet our expectations.

Braffin

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Each role has different purpose to make the pledge successful.

Of course, In the ESO people can build your character which you like,
or can equip your favorite gear.

But if you come to dungeon with wearing light apparel as tank, then you're fake.
Even you have taunt or shield, you're nonsense. And be kicked.

Because developer doesn't design the ESO like that way as group mission.
You can do anything you want, but in solo mission only.

Ever heard of the outfit-system (you can find it in your collections-tab)?

Happy judging what your tank is wearing.

Amottica

Braffin wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Each role has different purpose to make the pledge successful.

Of course, In the ESO people can build your character which you like,
or can equip your favorite gear.

But if you come to dungeon with wearing light apparel as tank, then you're fake.
Even you have taunt or shield, you're nonsense. And be kicked.

Because developer doesn't design the ESO like that way as group mission.
You can do anything you want, but in solo mission only.

Ever heard of the outfit-system (you can find it in your collections-tab)?

Happy judging what your tank is wearing.

If I could click Insightful, Agree, and Awesome I would. It has been clear for as long as I have played the game, and probably before, that we have no idea what armor someone is wearing due to costumes and able to change the appearance of motifs.

Tommy_The_Gun

Not necessarily hyper experienced player here, but this is something that I think experienced players should take into account when using Group Finder - as it is not necessarily fault of the new players.

Dungeons and DLC Dungeons have a quest associated with them. This quests are done only once and they grant 1 Skill Point. If you are re-doing the Dungeon, chances are you have already done the quest. But new player ? Nope. So they will try to do it and often you have an extra objectives to do, but only new players have the quest active, so only they can see the objective & map markers.

Tempest Island Dungeon in a good example, where one of the quest stages is to "Clear the Beach of the Lamia Forces". So a player having a quest will try to do it, but the rest will just skip adds and rush to the 1st boss, often resulting with a vote-kick.

boi_anachronism_

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Both Dragon of Elsweyr and HallowStorm of Skyrim are good 4 men group combat testing
place for the noob players.

"Should I go Vet dungeon? or should keep staying in normal?"

If your tank character can't deal 3 dangerous foe including 5 mobs at once in the
HallowStorm mission, or can't protect enough yourself from Dragon breath in the Elsweyr
without healer. Then, you should not come to Vet dungeon as tank.

If your damage dealer character can't take down "pike of HallowStorm" by solo with 1 real tank support.
Then, you should not come to Vet dungeon as damage dealer. Both your damage amount and combat tactics
are not ready for Vet yet. Don't come to Banishing Cell2 Vet as DD seriously.

If your healer character can't save 2DD(CP above 400) from damage AoE in HallowStorm,
Then, you should not come to Vet dungeon as healer. At least, let them alive more than 3 min will be better.

Those're my regulation from my experience. May not precise. But I think it makes sense mostly.

(Real end-game 1DD and 1tank can deal HallowStorm. Only 2player can take down it within
10min or more faster. I actually did it several times with 1DD as tank.)

Ive actually done this with myself and what i can only imagine was another very experienced DD. We had a shield and a heal obviously but otherwise we just nuked. Took a little bit longer because we had to dodge so much (we kited for eachother on occasion). Let me tell you it was one of the most fun experiences ive ever had doing overworld content. We were both super stoked when we finished.

boi_anachronism_

Braffin wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Each role has different purpose to make the pledge successful.

Of course, In the ESO people can build your character which you like,
or can equip your favorite gear.

But if you come to dungeon with wearing light apparel as tank, then you're fake.
Even you have taunt or shield, you're nonsense. And be kicked.

Because developer doesn't design the ESO like that way as group mission.
You can do anything you want, but in solo mission only.

Ever heard of the outfit-system (you can find it in your collections-tab)?

Happy judging what your tank is wearing.

Ima tell you right now when my (dd qued) nightblade stepped up to tank moonhunter keep bc we had no tank he was not a real tank. 19k hp, magblade. I slapped some heavy gear i had just crafted for my tank on him cause it was still in my inventory, threw on a taunt and a s/b and prayed. I managed. He ticked the "real tank" boxes of taunt, heavy gear, s/b but he was no tank.

El_Borracho

@Braffin I 100% agree with you.

MannedYeti

I pretty much agree with all of these. I play on Xbox-NA, and have Vet, no death, speed runs and hard modes for every dungeon up to Castle Thorn, after that I have Vet, no death and speed runs (still working on hard modes). Most of them I have done one my DPS (Khajiit Magplar) but several of them I have tanked.

I consider myself a decent tank, I have several Vet trial clears (I was a tank on a Prog team for several months before life got in the way), but I am by no means the best of even an amazing tank, I know I make mistakes and I have been playing off and on since console release.

My wife is normally my healer and her tv is next to mine and between the two of us we get to see some crazy thing from dps sometimes (or just other people in general depending on what we que as is we que for a random). We have friends who are newer to the game who I swear sometimes when fighting bosses will end up on the damn ceiling or in another room because they are just running around spamming buttons.

I do hate going into a random que and getting fake roles for a tank and healer when my wife and I are on our dps, my magplar is a glass cannon, I can't put a taunt on I will get wrecked my wife's sorc can put a taunt on, but on the flip side sometimes when we are going through all of our toons on the days when we hit a lot of fake roles we end up getting stuck in ques on our healer and tank combo's because there is so many fake roles now (I know the issue before was to many dps now there is sometimes to many fakes hopefully the LFG system will help that).

Like someone said please have a taunt if your the tank, I helped a guildie farm for SPC a few months ago, they got 2 others from the same guild. The tank was a templar in the 600s who was using one of the morphs of piercing javelin as his taunt and thought that would work, said mid dungeon "man I really should get a taunt eventually, but this skill works just as good I think" and the healer who wanted SPC made sure to tell us about 17 times that he "only wanted SPC pieces in light"... luckily the RNG gods were on our side and we got the pieces he needed in 1 run.

Basically help people out, it's not that hard. If you take 5 mins to help someone you might find someone that you like running content with and be able to put together a team to finish that thing that you haven't been able to finish yet one day.

AvalonRanger

The real problem is CP over 1000 noob players.

Just keep doing easy XP farming enough long time, but didn't do fundamental combat training.
This type of player never learn, just playing ESO enough long time without any of combat evolution.

Just never learn.

Ignore craft technique,
Ignore food buff,
Stupid DD Jump in tons of mobs enemy without tank .
Crappy healer can't do emergency healing for the team .
Keep standing on Damage AoE .
Keep standing outside of Healing AoE .
Can't do situation adaption .

And, be dead instantly.

I've seen many of those type of high CP noob. Simply, they are extremely terrible players.
But push Vet DLC dungeon Hardmode switch, and die just 5 sec after the combat started.

Once you reach CP1500, then you can get most of perk. But perk is not everything for the
good team players. Even CP can't make you special anymore, but only for the low Lv players.

Actually say, I've seen many of CP below 700 decent role player as real tank in Vet, but also
seen CP 2400 brain dead DD in normal dungeon.