Serious questions that need answers from ZOS. (The data is out, no need for "more time to bake")

sarahthes · September 2023

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Lykeion wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

I will say it again, this thread is cherry picked data and presented in a misleading way. Arcanist and DK are great and "easy to play (this is subjective)," but if I'm a DPS in a trial I know that the way to pad my DPS numbers is to aim my beam at the adds while hitting the boss, as opposed to just hitting the boss.

I disagree with your argument about cherrypick. This thread counts the top 100 ranking's classes for each trial as a source of statistical data on well-performing classes. So far in U39, most of the HM trials have less than 500 records (this includes healers and tanks). Exactly how many stats do you need to make you think it's not cherry-picked data?

Regarding the other part of your argument, I'd say that AOE damage is meaningful; damage against adds is meaningful. It's not what you called 'pad DPS'. Not killing frogs fast enough in Oaxiltso or wraiths in Bahsei can be a serious threat to healers or DDs, not to mention watchings in Xalvakka. Let alone the fact that in many cases Arcanist is superior to other classes even in terms of single-target damage without adds. Xalvakka's top tier Arcanist's damage to bosses is much higher than the first non-Arcanist or DK's class's damage to bosses

Additionally, esolog provides Damage To Bosses Ranking, and using RG as an example, I've tallied up the non-Arcanist and DK classes in the top 100 for you since you insist on damage to bosses being so meaingful

Oaxiltso
https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/15#boss=49&class=DPS&metric=bossdps
2 Blades
2 Temps
0 Others

Flame-Herald Bahsei
https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/15#boss=50&class=DPS&metric=bossdps
2 Blades
2 Temps
2 Necros
0 Others

Xalvakka
https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/15#boss=51&class=DPS&metric=bossdps
2 Blades
2 Temps
2 Sorcs
0 Others

For the rest of the trials, check it out for yourself.

But it is cherry picked because it’s only based on trials and trials is only a small part of the game. I would hope that the devs don’t make any sort of balance changes based on trials data from esologs. You know how many players avoid trials?

I think Arcanist and DK work and are popular because you can look at their skills and think of builds whether it’s healing, tanking, dps or a combo of those and use those skills. They are the classes where you’ll hear “that ability is trash” not often if at all. That’s the goal I’d say. Other classes should be in the same position.

Here the thing though, even if all the skills on all the classes and everywhere else were perfect and awesome. I think you’d still have a logjam at the top of leaderboards because people who do content for leaderboard purposes will always seek the advantage, even if it’s slight.

It's also cherry picked because everyone is still limit testing arcanist. And they like having a new class that they haven't used before. It skews the data more than just the class performance.

Lykeion · September 2023

OtarTheMad wrote: »

This may be unpopular for me to say but I don’t think classes should be balanced around dps numbers. They should be based on functionality and feel of any skill line class or otherwise, basically are all the skills useful in situations that they should be and you can complete anything in the game.

I agree with most of your points, but I think they are off the topic of this thread. The main point of the poster is precisely that Arcanist and DK has an overpowered DPS ability, that other classes looks unworthy to be played as DPS anymore.

OtarTheMad · September 2023

Lykeion wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

This may be unpopular for me to say but I don’t think classes should be balanced around dps numbers. They should be based on functionality and feel of any skill line class or otherwise, basically are all the skills useful in situations that they should be and you can complete anything in the game.

I agree with most of your points, but I think they are off the topic of this thread. The main point of the poster is precisely that Arcanist and DK has an overpowered DPS ability, that other classes looks unworthy to be played as DPS anymore.

And those numbers represent one playstyle out of so many. People here have been asking for DK and Arcanist to be nerfed and I say: why? Why bring them down to the level of classes that people have said need adjustments?

I’ve been playing long enough to have seen players leave because they think the dps numbers they are getting aren’t good enough when they are doing 30-40k. All these videos and topics on people pulling 100k+ make it seem like the norm and it frustrates people, I was one of them a long time ago too.

You want to base this off those numbers? Fine. It’s no way to balance but fine… then bring the other classes up to DK and Arcanist. Don’t nerf the two that are in a good spot… that’s what been happening for a long time and it’s lead no where except one big giant circle. You nerf those two, another class will just take flood the top. Plus Arcanist is only there because it’s easy and the new class like @sarahthes said.

You say other classes aren’t worthy of being played as dps anymore and while that may be true for leaderboard chasers… I’m doing fine on my warden, hell I am even getting content done on my Magcro. Granted playing Necromancer now makes me wanna jam my head into a wood chipper but I can do content just fine… class is crap tho lol.

Turtle_Bot · September 2023

For those who are so tunnel vision focused on the data being "cherry picked", it's called showing a large enough sample that shows a trend. A trend is then used to form early results which can be backed up by further research and data. It's the reason I included the links to the logs that has the data. Those links show the entire data that we have available and show it for more than just trials content, which is far more than just what I have shown here and would help for those to do further research on this.

I would like to see the logs and data that backs up the claims being made about the data provided via ESOLOGS. If this other data is as robust (or more so) as the data I have provided I would be more than interested in taking a look at it to see what it can tell us and adjust accordingly.

But based on the data that we have available to us (which is more than just hearsay or opinion), DK and Arcanist are overperforming everywhere currently and it's not just in AoE fights either like some are trying to claim, the logs for Asylum Sanctorium (a completely single target focused trial with minimal adds) completely debunk that myth.

To re-iterate, I would be completely fine and wouldn't even be making this thread if we could see that the peak DPS of each class was on average within 5% or so to the top classes for actual content, but the fact that the top 2 classes are significantly above the rest (by over 20% on average), this issue needs bringing up so ZOS can explain the reasons for this to be occurring, or hopefully fix this by bringing the other classes up to be closer to that 5% differential range of the top 2 classes, or at the bare minimum explain what their plan is to close this gap.

The reason it is so important for the top end to be as close as possible for peak potential is because who do you think the majority of the players base looks up to when they choose their class and research builds, the top end players.
The majority of the player base wants to know that the class they are playing is up there with the best of them because otherwise they feel like they are handicapping themselves by playing a "lesser" class.
They don't care that any class can technically complete any content, because to them, it's not the best class, or the effort required to get to the stage where they can do that on any class is too much or impossible for them to reach.
If the gap is small enough (around that 5%), 99.9% of players won't care, but considering the gap is 20% or more (over 40% for some classes/content), that is drastic enough for the general player base to say, well why bother with these other 5 classes when the top 2 are just so much stronger than them.
It is also why DPS is a big factor in this. Yes there will always be those who just want to tank or heal, but the vast majority of the player base wants to be the DD, so seeing such a huge difference in DPS levels between the classes will have the biggest impact because that metric is what the majority of the player base wants to play.

Don't believe me about the attitude towards the classes? Take a look at the sets/builds/weapons being used over the past year.
Everyone is saying there is only about a dozen max sets/builds that are viable and everyone is already complaining about all classes running the same builds all the time with no class diversity.
The evidence that the attitude of the general player base will be to just not bother to play the other weaker classes due to such a big gap in power is already there, it has been there for years in the number of sets seeing play in any given meta (in both PvE and PvP).

sarahthes · September 2023

I think you aren't giving enough credit to the fact that people are bored with the older classes, especially in endgame. They're playing arcanist because it's fresh.

OtarTheMad · September 2023

With all due respect, truly, I think you are the one with tunnel vision. I think that part of the problem with the game is players look at the top end for what they should play Vs just leveling up a class and seeing if they enjoy it or not. It’s okay to get ideas and try them out, for sure, but you should always do what best suites you.

I’ve been here since 2014, every class has had its day on top of the mountain… flooding whatever leaderboards existed. The approach has been the same for years… nerf the “op” class but then you know what happens? The classes that had issues get fixed and now they are “op” and then they get nerfed and another class that needed help gets “op”. You nerf DK and Arcanist all that is going to happen is one or two other classes will flood the top. But buff the other classes and now people got choices.

As an average player I don’t care about the meta and I don’t care about the gap between top end leaderboards pushers. 100k dps is not the norm so why would I stress?

It could be as simple as those two classes are the easiest to play so they are more fun. I don’t have a DK really, it’s a crafter, but I can see how the class would be easy. DoTs provide constant damage, that’s all DK is… wear sets that benefit that and fire… good to go. Arcanist is just new so people are gravitating towards it. Arcanist is probably the first new class that is balanced too which I think gets people curious.

I think players should play what they like, what brings them the most fun times. The goal for dps, if you want to complete a lot of the game is around 30-40k I’d say (according to what I’ve been told) and even 20-25k can get a lot done too because that’s where I was for years and I’ve done a ton of stuff including dlc dungeons and maelstrom etc.

And the blunt answer to why a lot of people don’t wear other viable sets is because a content creator hasn’t worn it yet and made a video about it. Easiest way to see what works well for anyone struggling is to go onto PTS servers and make a template character. That template will have all the sets, try ones on that you’re curious about and just test away… see what works… see what doesn’t.

Marto · September 2023

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I’ve been here since 2014, every class has had its day on top of the mountain… flooding whatever leaderboards existed. The approach has been the same for years… nerf the “op” class but then you know what happens? The classes that had issues get fixed and now they are “op” and then they get nerfed and another class that needed help gets “op”. You nerf DK and Arcanist all that is going to happen is one or two other classes will flood the top. But buff the other classes and now people got choices.

[...]

And the blunt answer to why a lot of people don’t wear other viable sets is because a content creator hasn’t worn it yet and made a video about it. Easiest way to see what works well for anyone struggling is to go onto PTS servers and make a template character. That template will have all the sets, try ones on that you’re curious about and just test away… see what works… see what doesn’t.

Furthermore, the gap has never been as small as it is today. Endgame players really don't like to admit it, but ZOS really has done a much better job balancing the game in the past few years.

Using any of those other unpopular sets you describe will still incur a DPS loss compared to the most optimized setup, sure. But it's way smaller than it was in the past.

There comes a point where the community needs to stop obsessing over numbers, and just accept when the balance is good enough. A 10% gap between the top and the bottom of non-arcanist builds seems pretty damn good to me.

The cases where it reaches 20% are a little troubling, but it's not unreasonable or unexpected considering the design of the class, and how young it is.

OtarTheMad · September 2023

Marto wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

I’ve been here since 2014, every class has had its day on top of the mountain… flooding whatever leaderboards existed. The approach has been the same for years… nerf the “op” class but then you know what happens? The classes that had issues get fixed and now they are “op” and then they get nerfed and another class that needed help gets “op”. You nerf DK and Arcanist all that is going to happen is one or two other classes will flood the top. But buff the other classes and now people got choices.

[...]

And the blunt answer to why a lot of people don’t wear other viable sets is because a content creator hasn’t worn it yet and made a video about it. Easiest way to see what works well for anyone struggling is to go onto PTS servers and make a template character. That template will have all the sets, try ones on that you’re curious about and just test away… see what works… see what doesn’t.

Furthermore, the gap has never been as small as it is today. Endgame players really don't like to admit it, but ZOS really has done a much better job balancing the game in the past few years.

Using any of those other unpopular sets you describe will still incur a DPS loss compared to the most optimized setup, sure. But it's way smaller than it was in the past.

There comes a point where the community needs to stop obsessing over numbers, and just accept when the balance is good enough. A 10% gap between the top and the bottom of non-arcanist builds seems pretty damn good to me.

The cases where it reaches 20% are a little troubling, but it's not unreasonable or unexpected considering the design of the class, and how young it is.

Agreed.

You know I was one of those players. I obsessed about the numbers, got mad about not having the dps I needed to do content. I ended up rage quitting. I realized a few months later that the content I was so mad I “couldn’t” do… I was doing while trying to get top numbers. I realized that while it was good to push, be competitive… I also had to know my limits and just have fun. Then some people helped me with what the numbers I really needed to get to and I pretty much already had.

Turtle_Bot · September 2023

OtarTheMad wrote: »

With all due respect, truly, I think you are the one with tunnel vision.
[...]
But buff the other classes and now people got choices.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Respectfully, you (and many others) are the ones tunnel visioning here. You and many others here disputing this thread are so concerned about DK and arcanist getting nerfed you aren't reading the entirety of my comments.

I never stated I wanted classes nerfed, in fact I stated the exact opposite, that I want the other lower classes to be brought up to a spot that is close to the top 2 classes for in content performance so that all classes are close to being equal in potential, much more so than they are currently.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

[...]
by bringing the other classes up to be closer to that 5% differential range of the top 2 classes
[...]

Ph1p · September 2023

Marto wrote: »

Furthermore, the gap has never been as small as it is today. Endgame players really don't like to admit it, but ZOS really has done a much better job balancing the game in the past few years.

Using any of those other unpopular sets you describe will still incur a DPS loss compared to the most optimized setup, sure. But it's way smaller than it was in the past.

There comes a point where the community needs to stop obsessing over numbers, [...]

I think if you make such a sweeping statement about the power gap between classes being as small as it has ever been, you need to provide some evidence or examples. You cannot dismiss this burden of proof by calling for everyone to stop looking at numbers.

Let me be clear: I don't necessarily think you're wrong. I can think of several balancing updates that are in line with your statement, like recent buffs to Templars. But let's look at the status of Wardens, for example, and how they compare to the top DPS class for a couple of trials. We'll ignore the optimized groups at the top and only look at "regular" veteran difficulty and the median DPS output per class:

vSE: Stamina Arcanist median DPS is 34-37% higher than that of Warden (stamina and magicka)
vDSR: 46-52%
vRG: 57-69%
vKA: 48-58%
vSS: 44-49%

With ESO's complexity, I would never expect these differences to disappear and I don't even know whether a gap of 10% or 30% in these numbers would constitute a "good balance". But at least in this example, I don't see a well-balanced situation. And keep in mind that Warden was a DLC class as well and has been the target of multiple balancing changes recently. By the way, in Update 37 this gap between Warden and the best class (Dragonknight at the time) was more like 20-30% across these trials and they were almost even for vSS.

However, this could be cherry-picked data for Wardens. So let's compare the top class to whatever are the next best five and do so over several updates. I used Update 34, 37, and 39, where top DPS classes were Necro (U34), Dragonknight (U37), and Arcanist (U39):

vDSR
- U34: Median Stamcro damage was 9-25% higher than that of the next 5 class setups
- U37: Median MagDK damage was 6-24% higher
- U39: Medcian StamArc damage is 13-23% higher
vRG:
- U34: Stamcro was 6-27% higher
- U37: MagDK was 15-23% higher
- U39: StamArc is 17-37% higher
vKA:
- U34: Stamcro was 23-44% higher
- U37: MagDK was 6-21% higher
- U39: StamArc is 12-36% higher
vSS:
- U34: Stamcro was 10-23% higher
- U37: MagDK was 9-14% higher
- U39: StamArc is 13-31% higher

I indeed see that from U34 to U37 ZOS generally improved class balance for PVE trial damage. The top 6 setups all got closer together. But the spread has widened significantly with U39 again. I think that's why we are having this discussion in the first place.

Data sources: Statistics function from ESO Logs (example for vDSR)

Zodiarkslayer · September 2023

While we can all argue about interpretation of the data from esologs, i think there is an indisputably large gap between top and bottom classes.

I however, also have no problem with it. There will always be gaps.
What I have a problem with is how one can get high numbers very easily on one class and struggles to be mid tier on others.

As long as there is a huge gap in mastering a class, there is no balance.
The performance should reflect the effort necessary to put into a class.

BetweenMidgets · September 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

This is literally just damage done in PVE trials. It's a good set of data, but it's just not enough to make widespread conclusions.

I'd like to see a lot of data points from PVP logs. Obviously that will be more complicated to aquire, but not impossible.

The ones I have access to show nightblade and warden consistently dealing the most damage, and with nightblade, warden and sorc as the most consistent healers. For all the talk of how busted DK is, it isn't showing up on either list.

Now these are only the guilds organized group logs. I can't post them because I know that they would not want me to, but I do think there needs to be more logs of PVP that CAN be shown

Unfortunately PVP logs don't generally show you how overpowered the shielding is.

Arcanist doesn't shine with heals, they shine with their shielding. And with the upcoming change to make their ulti hit 12 instead of 6 without any reduction to the shielded amount ... that is going to be straight bonkers. Massively better than barrier for almost all cases.

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

This is literally just damage done in PVE trials. It's a good set of data, but it's just not enough to make widespread conclusions.

I'd like to see a lot of data points from PVP logs. Obviously that will be more complicated to aquire, but not impossible.

The ones I have access to show nightblade and warden consistently dealing the most damage, and with nightblade, warden and sorc as the most consistent healers. For all the talk of how busted DK is, it isn't showing up on either list.

Now these are only the guilds organized group logs. I can't post them because I know that they would not want me to, but I do think there needs to be more logs of PVP that CAN be shown

Unfortunately PVP logs don't generally show you how overpowered the shielding is.

Arcanist doesn't shine with heals, they shine with their shielding. And with the upcoming change to make their ulti hit 12 instead of 6 without any reduction to the shielded amount ... that is going to be straight bonkers. Massively better than barrier for almost all cases.

Shields are lumped in with healing done on logs. The main "heal" seen on dk tanks in logs is usually their class shield

Four_Fingers · September 2023

Relax, stop trying to play data scientists and just play the game.

carlos424 · September 2023

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Could it be that some players mostly play certain classes as DD and other classes as support?
The trinity exists despite trying to make an MMO a solo player game.
Many variables in stats.

The stats don’t account for the player skill. If all the top players were playing, say, templar, and others were playing arcanist, I’m sure the arcanist numbers wouldn’t look nearly as skewed. Not saying that arcanist isn’t powerful. Just saying that all the top players are playing the new, easy-to-play, powerful class. Naturally, the arcanist numbers will be high.

Jazraena · September 2023

OtarTheMad wrote: »

With all due respect, truly, I think you are the one with tunnel vision. I think that part of the problem with the game is players look at the top end for what they should play Vs just leveling up a class and seeing if they enjoy it or not. It’s okay to get ideas and try them out, for sure, but you should always do what best suites you.

I’ve been here since 2014, every class has had its day on top of the mountain… flooding whatever leaderboards existed. The approach has been the same for years… nerf the “op” class but then you know what happens? The classes that had issues get fixed and now they are “op” and then they get nerfed and another class that needed help gets “op”. You nerf DK and Arcanist all that is going to happen is one or two other classes will flood the top. But buff the other classes and now people got choices.

As an average player I don’t care about the meta and I don’t care about the gap between top end leaderboards pushers. 100k dps is not the norm so why would I stress?

It could be as simple as those two classes are the easiest to play so they are more fun. I don’t have a DK really, it’s a crafter, but I can see how the class would be easy. DoTs provide constant damage, that’s all DK is… wear sets that benefit that and fire… good to go. Arcanist is just new so people are gravitating towards it. Arcanist is probably the first new class that is balanced too which I think gets people curious.

I think players should play what they like, what brings them the most fun times. The goal for dps, if you want to complete a lot of the game is around 30-40k I’d say (according to what I’ve been told) and even 20-25k can get a lot done too because that’s where I was for years and I’ve done a ton of stuff including dlc dungeons and maelstrom etc.

And the blunt answer to why a lot of people don’t wear other viable sets is because a content creator hasn’t worn it yet and made a video about it. Easiest way to see what works well for anyone struggling is to go onto PTS servers and make a template character. That template will have all the sets, try ones on that you’re curious about and just test away… see what works… see what doesn’t.

If you don't care, why do you oppose it being fixed for those that do?

sarahthes · September 2023

Ph1p wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

Furthermore, the gap has never been as small as it is today. Endgame players really don't like to admit it, but ZOS really has done a much better job balancing the game in the past few years.

Using any of those other unpopular sets you describe will still incur a DPS loss compared to the most optimized setup, sure. But it's way smaller than it was in the past.

There comes a point where the community needs to stop obsessing over numbers, [...]

I think if you make such a sweeping statement about the power gap between classes being as small as it has ever been, you need to provide some evidence or examples. You cannot dismiss this burden of proof by calling for everyone to stop looking at numbers.

Let me be clear: I don't necessarily think you're wrong. I can think of several balancing updates that are in line with your statement, like recent buffs to Templars. But let's look at the status of Wardens, for example, and how they compare to the top DPS class for a couple of trials. We'll ignore the optimized groups at the top and only look at "regular" veteran difficulty and the median DPS output per class:
vSE: Stamina Arcanist median DPS is 34-37% higher than that of Warden (stamina and magicka)

vDSR: 46-52%

vRG: 57-69%

vKA: 48-58%

vSS: 44-49%

With ESO's complexity, I would never expect these differences to disappear and I don't even know whether a gap of 10% or 30% in these numbers would constitute a "good balance". But at least in this example, I don't see a well-balanced situation. And keep in mind that Warden was a DLC class as well and has been the target of multiple balancing changes recently. By the way, in Update 37 this gap between Warden and the best class (Dragonknight at the time) was more like 20-30% across these trials and they were almost even for vSS.

However, this could be cherry-picked data for Wardens. So let's compare the top class to whatever are the next best five and do so over several updates. I used Update 34, 37, and 39, where top DPS classes were Necro (U34), Dragonknight (U37), and Arcanist (U39):
vDSR
- U34: Median Stamcro damage was 9-25% higher than that of the next 5 class setups
- U37: Median MagDK damage was 6-24% higher
- U39: Medcian StamArc damage is 13-23% higher

vRG:
- U34: Stamcro was 6-27% higher
- U37: MagDK was 15-23% higher
- U39: StamArc is 17-37% higher

vKA:
- U34: Stamcro was 23-44% higher
- U37: MagDK was 6-21% higher
- U39: StamArc is 12-36% higher

vSS:
- U34: Stamcro was 10-23% higher
- U37: MagDK was 9-14% higher
- U39: StamArc is 13-31% higher

I indeed see that from U34 to U37 ZOS generally improved class balance for PVE trial damage. The top 6 setups all got closer together. But the spread has widened significantly with U39 again. I think that's why we are having this discussion in the first place.

Data sources: Statistics function from ESO Logs (example for vDSR)

Have you accounted for the fact that the strong players are playing arcanists and that most of the wardens etc in the logs are in fact weaker *players* rather than the class being weaker?

Ingenon · September 2023

Want class balance at the top DPS level for trials? Make it so every class has a unique buff that is needed for the group. Every class will get included in the top performing groups, so they are there to provide their needed buff.

Without doing what I said above, I think that ZOS would be wasting their time trying to balance DPS. As long as one class has a bit higher DPS at the top end, a large percentage of folks will use it.

Separately, does anyone have the numbers for how many "carries" for Vet content are being sold recently? Are they down significantly, because ZOS has introduced a powerful easy to play class, and therefore less folks need carried? And is this why some folks would be pushing to nerf the Arcanist DPS? I find that follow the money often leads to the real answer.

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

Ingenon wrote: »

Want class balance at the top DPS level for trials? Make it so every class has a unique buff that is needed for the group. Every class will get included in the top performing groups, so they are there to provide their needed buff.

Without doing what I said above, I think that ZOS would be wasting their time trying to balance DPS. As long as one class has a bit higher DPS at the top end, a large percentage of folks will use it.

Separately, does anyone have the numbers for how many "carries" for Vet content are being sold recently? Are they down significantly, because ZOS has introduced a powerful easy to play class, and therefore less folks need carried? And is this why some folks would be pushing to nerf the Arcanist DPS? I find that follow the money often leads to the real answer.

Carries are down because crown gifting is down.

Arcanist as a class has nothing to do with it. As a rule, people do not pay for content they sincerely want to run. I would never pay for a carry because for me the joy is in the prog and the achievement.

For some people, the joy is in having the skin/title/gear/whatever.

Carries is the former meeting the latter and coming to a mutually beneficial agreement.

OtarTheMad · September 2023

Jazraena wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

With all due respect, truly, I think you are the one with tunnel vision. I think that part of the problem with the game is players look at the top end for what they should play Vs just leveling up a class and seeing if they enjoy it or not. It’s okay to get ideas and try them out, for sure, but you should always do what best suites you.

I’ve been here since 2014, every class has had its day on top of the mountain… flooding whatever leaderboards existed. The approach has been the same for years… nerf the “op” class but then you know what happens? The classes that had issues get fixed and now they are “op” and then they get nerfed and another class that needed help gets “op”. You nerf DK and Arcanist all that is going to happen is one or two other classes will flood the top. But buff the other classes and now people got choices.

As an average player I don’t care about the meta and I don’t care about the gap between top end leaderboards pushers. 100k dps is not the norm so why would I stress?

It could be as simple as those two classes are the easiest to play so they are more fun. I don’t have a DK really, it’s a crafter, but I can see how the class would be easy. DoTs provide constant damage, that’s all DK is… wear sets that benefit that and fire… good to go. Arcanist is just new so people are gravitating towards it. Arcanist is probably the first new class that is balanced too which I think gets people curious.

I think players should play what they like, what brings them the most fun times. The goal for dps, if you want to complete a lot of the game is around 30-40k I’d say (according to what I’ve been told) and even 20-25k can get a lot done too because that’s where I was for years and I’ve done a ton of stuff including dlc dungeons and maelstrom etc.

And the blunt answer to why a lot of people don’t wear other viable sets is because a content creator hasn’t worn it yet and made a video about it. Easiest way to see what works well for anyone struggling is to go onto PTS servers and make a template character. That template will have all the sets, try ones on that you’re curious about and just test away… see what works… see what doesn’t.

If you don't care, why do you oppose it being fixed for those that do?

Because balancing classes based on just one tiny part of the game, trials, has a trickle down effect and heavily alters how a lot of us who never do trials plays. That forces me to care which frustrates me, because even though I don’t do trials, classes I enjoy are affected by it and on top of that affected by people who do 100k+ dps which is WAY over the dps you need for a lot of the game.

Also Turtle I know you were asking for the lower classes to be buffed but others here and just in other places on the forums were asking for nerfs.

Sometimes we focus on the numbers too much which can be misleading and paint the picture that numbers like that are normal and the minimum to do anything.

Ph1p · September 2023

sarahthes wrote: »

Have you accounted for the fact that the strong players are playing arcanists and that most of the wardens etc in the logs are in fact weaker *players* rather than the class being weaker?

That’s why I’m not looking at hard mode data or top 100 numbers that include all the optimized groups, but at the median for each class in regular veteran trials.

Why would you assume that in this population Wardens players are inherently “weaker” than Arcanist ones? If anything, Warden players will on average have more experience with and knowledge about their class, since the Arcanist is still so new.

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

Ph1p wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Have you accounted for the fact that the strong players are playing arcanists and that most of the wardens etc in the logs are in fact weaker *players* rather than the class being weaker?

That’s why I’m not looking at hard mode data or top 100 numbers that include all the optimized groups, but at the median for each class in regular veteran trials.

Why would you assume that in this population Wardens players are inherently “weaker” than Arcanist ones? If anything, Warden players will on average have more experience with and knowledge about their class, since the Arcanist is still so new.

Never assume that just because someone is playing it longer they know it better.

Ph1p · September 2023

carlos424 wrote: »

The stats don’t account for the player skill. If all the top players were playing, say, templar, and others were playing arcanist, I’m sure the arcanist numbers wouldn’t look nearly as skewed. Not saying that arcanist isn’t powerful. Just saying that all the top players are playing the new, easy-to-play, powerful class. Naturally, the arcanist numbers will be high.

That definitely explains why the top 100 on the hard mode leaderboards are full of Arcanists and why the Arcanist's maximum DPS is ahead. But it doesn't explain why the average Arcanist does better than the average "anything else". Even the bottom 25% of all Arcanists outdo the bottom 25% of all other classes, at least when it comes to "regular" veteran trials.

FantasticFreddie · September 2023

Ph1p wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

The stats don’t account for the player skill. If all the top players were playing, say, templar, and others were playing arcanist, I’m sure the arcanist numbers wouldn’t look nearly as skewed. Not saying that arcanist isn’t powerful. Just saying that all the top players are playing the new, easy-to-play, powerful class. Naturally, the arcanist numbers will be high.

That definitely explains why the top 100 on the hard mode leaderboards are full of Arcanists and why the Arcanist's maximum DPS is ahead. But it doesn't explain why the average Arcanist does better than the average "anything else". Even the bottom 25% of all Arcanists outdo the bottom 25% of all other classes, at least when it comes to "regular" veteran trials.

Arcanist benefits greatly from velothi amulet. Which means people that struggle with light attack weaving will get better results when using it.

Ph1p · September 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Never assume that just because someone is playing it longer they know it better.

You can always focus on the exceptions, but how about this: I randomly pick a DD who has played their toon for 2 years. You randomly pick a DD of the same class who created their character 2 months ago. Both have the same gear, CPs, skill points, content experience, everything. You wanna put money on your DD doing better?

OtarTheMad · September 2023

Ph1p wrote: »

carlos424 wrote: »

The stats don’t account for the player skill. If all the top players were playing, say, templar, and others were playing arcanist, I’m sure the arcanist numbers wouldn’t look nearly as skewed. Not saying that arcanist isn’t powerful. Just saying that all the top players are playing the new, easy-to-play, powerful class. Naturally, the arcanist numbers will be high.

That definitely explains why the top 100 on the hard mode leaderboards are full of Arcanists and why the Arcanist's maximum DPS is ahead. But it doesn't explain why the average Arcanist does better than the average "anything else". Even the bottom 25% of all Arcanists outdo the bottom 25% of all other classes, at least when it comes to "regular" veteran trials.

For me, Arcanist is just easier and an easier rotation to remember which is vital for me. I have some issues and it’s hard for me to remember rotations. Arcanist is easy tho… cast skill that makes your staff green, runeblades till 3 crux, then tentacles, runeblades till 3 green doritos, fatecarver, repeat. Only other class that might have something similar to this as an easier rotation is DK.

Ph1p · September 2023

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Arcanist benefits greatly from velothi amulet. Which means people that struggle with light attack weaving will get better results when using it.

Fair point and good explanation :thumbsup:

By this logic Arcanist is indeed stronger as a class, since the same player gets better results than with other classes.

Ph1p · September 2023

OtarTheMad wrote: »

For me, Arcanist is just easier and an easier rotation to remember which is vital for me. I have some issues and it’s hard for me to remember rotations. Arcanist is easy tho… cast skill that makes your staff green, runeblades till 3 crux, then tentacles, runeblades till 3 green doritos, fatecarver, repeat. Only other class that might have something similar to this as an easier rotation is DK.

Good point and @FantasticFreddie made a similar one. I think this fits with the idea of raising the floor and if it brings more people into trials that's good for everyone. Overall, I am just surprised when people keep saying that there isn't any meaningful spread or imbalance, despite all evidence to the contrary. Not just from logs but also from player experience like yours and other anecdotal evidence.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating for Arcanists to be nerfed, although I do expect some adjustments simply based on how things went with Wardens and Necros.

OtarTheMad · September 2023

Ph1p wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

For me, Arcanist is just easier and an easier rotation to remember which is vital for me. I have some issues and it’s hard for me to remember rotations. Arcanist is easy tho… cast skill that makes your staff green, runeblades till 3 crux, then tentacles, runeblades till 3 green doritos, fatecarver, repeat. Only other class that might have something similar to this as an easier rotation is DK.

Good point and @FantasticFreddie made a similar one. I think this fits with the idea of raising the floor and if it brings more people into trials that's good for everyone. Overall, I am just surprised when people keep saying that there isn't any meaningful spread or imbalance, despite all evidence to the contrary. Not just from logs but also from player experience like yours and other anecdotal evidence.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating for Arcanists to be nerfed, although I do expect some adjustments simply based on how things went with Wardens and Necros.

Yeah and I think that would be a shame because I really do think the class has some real balance to it. Each powerful ability has a downside except for the Shield ultimate, maybe that gets toned down but other than that I’m good. Even Fatecarver needs people to be lined up and either stunned or slowed to even be good. Even that “cannot be interrupted” part I think is misunderstood. I use that morph and enemies can knock me back, stun me, pull me, use abilities that throw me up in the air but I don’t think they can walk up, use block and bash me… which is how you interrupt targets.

Jazraena · September 2023

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

With all due respect, truly, I think you are the one with tunnel vision. I think that part of the problem with the game is players look at the top end for what they should play Vs just leveling up a class and seeing if they enjoy it or not. It’s okay to get ideas and try them out, for sure, but you should always do what best suites you.

I’ve been here since 2014, every class has had its day on top of the mountain… flooding whatever leaderboards existed. The approach has been the same for years… nerf the “op” class but then you know what happens? The classes that had issues get fixed and now they are “op” and then they get nerfed and another class that needed help gets “op”. You nerf DK and Arcanist all that is going to happen is one or two other classes will flood the top. But buff the other classes and now people got choices.

As an average player I don’t care about the meta and I don’t care about the gap between top end leaderboards pushers. 100k dps is not the norm so why would I stress?

It could be as simple as those two classes are the easiest to play so they are more fun. I don’t have a DK really, it’s a crafter, but I can see how the class would be easy. DoTs provide constant damage, that’s all DK is… wear sets that benefit that and fire… good to go. Arcanist is just new so people are gravitating towards it. Arcanist is probably the first new class that is balanced too which I think gets people curious.

I think players should play what they like, what brings them the most fun times. The goal for dps, if you want to complete a lot of the game is around 30-40k I’d say (according to what I’ve been told) and even 20-25k can get a lot done too because that’s where I was for years and I’ve done a ton of stuff including dlc dungeons and maelstrom etc.

And the blunt answer to why a lot of people don’t wear other viable sets is because a content creator hasn’t worn it yet and made a video about it. Easiest way to see what works well for anyone struggling is to go onto PTS servers and make a template character. That template will have all the sets, try ones on that you’re curious about and just test away… see what works… see what doesn’t.

If you don't care, why do you oppose it being fixed for those that do?

Because balancing classes based on just one tiny part of the game, trials, has a trickle down effect and heavily alters how a lot of us who never do trials plays. That forces me to care which frustrates me, because even though I don’t do trials, classes I enjoy are affected by it and on top of that affected by people who do 100k+ dps which is WAY over the dps you need for a lot of the game.

Also Turtle I know you were asking for the lower classes to be buffed but others here and just in other places on the forums were asking for nerfs.

Sometimes we focus on the numbers too much which can be misleading and paint the picture that numbers like that are normal and the minimum to do anything.

I don't do high-end trials. The exact same slant appears in 4 man content. As I've laid out earlier.

What is the specific concern you're having here? Because even in the framework of making entirely theme-based builds well below meta it's a lot easier to get away with things on an arcanist or DK and still maintain high performance.