Support mains, how often do you kick fake dd?

boi_anachronism_

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

If you can't carry damage for any (dlc included) dungeon don't que for a random vet. Simple as that. I wind up carrying damage for my group a solid 75% of the time. I see dps in vet dungeons with sword and board hitting like wet noodles or spamming light attacks and then wondering why i dip.

boi_anachronism_

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

ForzaRammer wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

This poll is biased, I don t believe that anything like a fake DD even exists

I agree. The only fakes are tanks and healers.

Mostly it's people who queue in a role they have no intention of filling to beat the DD longer queue times. There is a lot of overlap between speed runners and fakes. It's the me-before-thee attitude...

So fakes tanks and healers are queue in a fake role for a shorter queue what is the alleged "fake" DD trying to accomplish?

Already answered in an earlier reply, ignore the answer won’t strengthen your argument

A carry. Usually for a monster helm

spartaxoxo

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

Once upon a time I took logs of a particularly bad pug run. One dd, a warden, had almost 50k health and was spamming resto staff and bow light attacks.
Logs revealed plauge doctor and warrior freakin poet armor, a mish mash of traits, , and base enchants. No monster set, and this was long before mythics. He had mostly damage skills but also several self heals and shields.

He was a prime example of someone who wasn't a tank, wasn't a healer, but also was not, by any stretch of the imagination, s damage dealer either. His primary role was "be annoying"

Seen stuff like that plenty. There are 4 roles in the game according to build guide: tank, healer, DPS, and none.

Such players don't have a role because they are not built for group content and fulfilling a role. They should queue into normal which is generally designed to not require any roles in particular, despite roles making them smoother. Queuing into vet for a carry is the reason that so many tanks/healers have ceased using the activity finder for finding groups, myself included.

spartaxoxo

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

Braffin wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.

A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

So, following your reasoning, a player with 17k HP, full dps-equip and a taunt wouldn't be a fake tank then, even if the boss one-hits them.

It's just a bad tank.

I think I can live with that. There aren't much fakes left then, are they? 😆

They don't even need a taunt!

There was a weak DPS queued as tank in my group not too long ago that tried to out damage me the other day. If intent is the only thing that matters, they were a real tank, despite having no taunt slotted. You see, that DPS said that aggro would go to him since he had the best DPS. It doesn't work that way anyway, but aggro stayed on me most of the fight. He didn't have a taunt slotted. But, since he intended to hold aggro he's just a bad tank not a fake. /s

svendf

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

At the time I did run dungeons, though it didn´t have anything to do with low dps. I just left because of fake tank - got agro most of the time on my healer.

Same if people just run ahead and skiping - I just left. So where can I vote fake tank ?

Jaimeh

I've never kicked a bad DD when playing support, I just slot more DD skills and perhaps adjust my gear to do more damage, and try to get through the dungeon.

Dragonredux

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

It depends on the dungeon.

If it's a base game dungeon except Banished Cells 2, I can suffer through as most of the dungeons barely have a dps check that matters.

On the other hand, doing something like Ruins of Mazzatun which has a totem you have to kill and having low dps makes it an impossible fight.

With the dungeon finder the way it is currently having to wait 10+ mins for a replacement isn't great so I just leave.

Shara_Wynn

I am curious to know how much dps does a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also curious to know how are new players to obtain the sets required in order to get them the higher dps required for *** the content without doing... the content?

I ask this as I haven't been playing ESO for very long and never do random normal dungeons let alone veteran because all the toxicity around not being able to do the perfect run and not perfectly negotiating the mechanics, just puts new players like me off doing them at all, which is a shame. So I just duo dungeons with my other half and our companions to avoid all this.

I get there are guides to the mechanics, but you can read them all day and watch the videos, but sometimes it's still hard to appreciate a mechanic until you actually experience it yourself. So new players will never be perfect and if everyone just wants to do random dungeons with the perfect group, then that isn't conducive to enticing new players into the game or helping new players become better.

So what dps would a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also it would be helpful if ZOS could organize the dungeon tier system a little better because clearly most veteran basegame dungeons are NOT as difficult as most normal DLC dungeons, yet to the new player they are all just lumped together as normal and veteran and that is highly misleading.

FantasticFreddie

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

I am curious to know how much dps does a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also curious to know how are new players to obtain the sets required in order to get them the higher dps required for *** the content without doing... the content?

I ask this as I haven't been playing ESO for very long and never do random normal dungeons let alone veteran because all the toxicity around not being able to do the perfect run and not perfectly negotiating the mechanics, just puts new players like me off doing them at all, which is a shame. So I just duo dungeons with my other half and our companions to avoid all this.

I get there are guides to the mechanics, but you can read them all day and watch the videos, but sometimes it's still hard to appreciate a mechanic until you actually experience it yourself. So new players will never be perfect and if everyone just wants to do random dungeons with the perfect group, then that isn't conducive to enticing new players into the game or helping new players become better.

So what dps would a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also it would be helpful if ZOS could organize the dungeon tier system a little better because clearly most veteran basegame dungeons are NOT as difficult as most normal DLC dungeons, yet to the new player they are all just lumped together as normal and veteran and that is highly misleading.

You can literally do a respectable amount of damage in crafted or overland sets, plus dungeon gear is the same on normal or vet except for quality. The only thing that MUST be farmed on vet is the monster set, and that should be the finishing touch to the build and not the first step

A rule of thumb I always tell people is you should be doing your job well enough so that if everyone in the group was performing at your level, you would still be able to do the content.

spartaxoxo

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

I am curious to know how much dps does a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also curious to know how are new players to obtain the sets required in order to get them the higher dps required for *** the content without doing... the content?

I ask this as I haven't been playing ESO for very long and never do random normal dungeons let alone veteran because all the toxicity around not being able to do the perfect run and not perfectly negotiating the mechanics, just puts new players like me off doing them at all, which is a shame. So I just duo dungeons with my other half and our companions to avoid all this.

I get there are guides to the mechanics, but you can read them all day and watch the videos, but sometimes it's still hard to appreciate a mechanic until you actually experience it yourself. So new players will never be perfect and if everyone just wants to do random dungeons with the perfect group, then that isn't conducive to enticing new players into the game or helping new players become better.

So what dps would a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also it would be helpful if ZOS could organize the dungeon tier system a little better because clearly most veteran basegame dungeons are NOT as difficult as most normal DLC dungeons, yet to the new player they are all just lumped together as normal and veteran and that is highly misleading.

Enough damage to hit the DPS checks and clear things comfortably, personally. That's around 20-25k in base game, and 30k-35k in vet dlc.

You can hit that damage by just having a basic rotation with no weaving necessary. You don't need to do vet content to get the gear either. There are overland and crafted sets that can get you there, alongside a very rudimentary rotation without advanced skills like weaving.

If you want to look into some overland or crafted sets to improve your gear, check out Mother's Sorrow, Order's Wrath, Julianos, Hunding's Rage, and others.

Katheriah

Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake dd

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Also curious to know how are new players to obtain the sets required in order to get them the higher dps required for *** the content without doing... the content?

Well obviously not in veteran mode, which is the subject of this thread.

YffresTrill

Extremely biased poll, as there is no option for not believing there is such a thing as fake DD.

mdjessup4906

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

I almost never leave unless it's the whole group being a ***. I'd rather play than wait around twiddling my thumbs on penalty. I'm also one of those rare tanks who will spend 3 hours on fg1 as long as it looks like everyone is trying, but the key is they need to be actually trying. Following instructions, attempting mechs etc.

FantasticFreddie

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

Katheriah wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

Also curious to know how are new players to obtain the sets required in order to get them the higher dps required for *** the content without doing... the content?

Well obviously not in veteran mode, which is the subject of this thread.

Not just vet mode, this is specifically about vet content via the group finder.

I'm sure all of us had at least one experience where a mind friend or guild mate helped farm a monster set when we were still terrible at the game, but that's very different-- everyone knowing that it's part training run, part gear run and part carry is a much better experience for all involved.

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

ComradeBiscuit wrote: »

Extremely biased poll, as there is no option for not believing there is such a thing as fake DD.

Believe whatever you want, as you clearly don’t read any of the comments, and provide no evidence to support your belief.

Your downplaying of our suffering seems like prejudice and xenophobia towards supports mains.

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.

A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

So now you claim the intersection of tank and dd is empty, but ur definition clearly don’t imply that.

According to your definition, all tank has to do damage, thus all tanks are dd. That’s not disjoint.

Your new claim “tank and dd being disjoint sets” contradicts your earlier claim “tank need to taunt” + “any dmg makes it reap dd”.

What kind of person would agree with you if your own claims contradict each other?

Jierdanit

Not a support main or no opinion

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

I am curious to know how much dps does a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also curious to know how are new players to obtain the sets required in order to get them the higher dps required for *** the content without doing... the content?

I ask this as I haven't been playing ESO for very long and never do random normal dungeons let alone veteran because all the toxicity around not being able to do the perfect run and not perfectly negotiating the mechanics, just puts new players like me off doing them at all, which is a shame. So I just duo dungeons with my other half and our companions to avoid all this.

I get there are guides to the mechanics, but you can read them all day and watch the videos, but sometimes it's still hard to appreciate a mechanic until you actually experience it yourself. So new players will never be perfect and if everyone just wants to do random dungeons with the perfect group, then that isn't conducive to enticing new players into the game or helping new players become better.

So what dps would a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also it would be helpful if ZOS could organize the dungeon tier system a little better because clearly most veteran basegame dungeons are NOT as difficult as most normal DLC dungeons, yet to the new player they are all just lumped together as normal and veteran and that is highly misleading.

Enough damage to hit the DPS checks and clear things comfortably, personally. That's around 20-25k in base game, and 30k-35k in vet dlc.

You can hit that damage by just having a basic rotation with no weaving necessary. You don't need to do vet content to get the gear either. There are overland and crafted sets that can get you there, alongside a very rudimentary rotation without advanced skills like weaving.

If you want to look into some overland or crafted sets to improve your gear, check out Mother's Sorrow, Order's Wrath, Julianos, Hunding's Rage, and others.

I have been running Mother's Sorrow / Julianos and Zaan for years on my DD and still get enough DPS to do basically all the dungeon content in the game, even if I am the highest DPS in the group.

People seriously overestimate how important gear is.
You don't need a meta build and hit 120k dps if you just want to do dungeons.

FantasticFreddie

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

Jierdanit wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

I am curious to know how much dps does a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also curious to know how are new players to obtain the sets required in order to get them the higher dps required for *** the content without doing... the content?

I ask this as I haven't been playing ESO for very long and never do random normal dungeons let alone veteran because all the toxicity around not being able to do the perfect run and not perfectly negotiating the mechanics, just puts new players like me off doing them at all, which is a shame. So I just duo dungeons with my other half and our companions to avoid all this.

I get there are guides to the mechanics, but you can read them all day and watch the videos, but sometimes it's still hard to appreciate a mechanic until you actually experience it yourself. So new players will never be perfect and if everyone just wants to do random dungeons with the perfect group, then that isn't conducive to enticing new players into the game or helping new players become better.

So what dps would a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also it would be helpful if ZOS could organize the dungeon tier system a little better because clearly most veteran basegame dungeons are NOT as difficult as most normal DLC dungeons, yet to the new player they are all just lumped together as normal and veteran and that is highly misleading.

Enough damage to hit the DPS checks and clear things comfortably, personally. That's around 20-25k in base game, and 30k-35k in vet dlc.

You can hit that damage by just having a basic rotation with no weaving necessary. You don't need to do vet content to get the gear either. There are overland and crafted sets that can get you there, alongside a very rudimentary rotation without advanced skills like weaving.

If you want to look into some overland or crafted sets to improve your gear, check out Mother's Sorrow, Order's Wrath, Julianos, Hunding's Rage, and others.

I have been running Mother's Sorrow / Julianos and Zaan for years on my DD and still get enough DPS to do basically all the dungeon content in the game, even if I am the highest DPS in the group.

People seriously overestimate how important gear is.
You don't need a meta build and hit 120k dps if you just want to do dungeons.

Seriously. A couple of 5 piece sets geared towards doing damage, any weapons besides a resto staff or shield, a damage mundas, and a basic understanding of using dots and spammables is all we are asking for before pugging into veteran content with total strangers. Pretty sure almost every zone and dungeon in the game has at least 1 damage dealing set, and the mundas stones are in every base game zone. We aren't asking for anything impossible.

AvalonRanger

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

This is extremely decent poll.

People who can't believe "fake DD" problem, and keep complaining against being
kicked by the real tank or healer as DD role. Then, you might not understand dungeon mech.

Some dungeon(especially DLC contents ) very need important DD role even in normal. If DD can't destroy
specific important target within limited time, then everyone will be wiped. It's DD failure. And, being kicked.

DD role aren't just follower. Keep searching important target during combat, and must destroy it as fast as you can.
If you can't do those effort by proper way, then "both taunting and healing" are meaningless.
(But we have fake tank problem also in PUG.)

Rethink your gear and building style for the "DAMAGE DEALER".

spartaxoxo

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

Delete

Braffin

Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake dd

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.

A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

So, following your reasoning, a player with 17k HP, full dps-equip and a taunt wouldn't be a fake tank then, even if the boss one-hits them.

It's just a bad tank.

I think I can live with that. There aren't much fakes left then, are they? 😆

They don't even need a taunt!

There was a weak DPS queued as tank in my group not too long ago that tried to out damage me the other day. If intent is the only thing that matters, they were a real tank, despite having no taunt slotted. You see, that DPS said that aggro would go to him since he had the best DPS. It doesn't work that way anyway, but aggro stayed on me most of the fight. He didn't have a taunt slotted. But, since he intended to hold aggro he's just a bad tank not a fake. /s

Exactly! If someone is queued as tank and intends to do so, it's not a fake.

At least if we refuse to acknowledge the need for sufficient dps for damage dealers at the same time.

It's nonsensical to let dds do less dmg than support roles (or even let them use taunts and heals) without calling them fake, but expect tanks and healers to do their job exceedingly well, otherwise calling them fake.

Personally I think it's mainly the fake dds themselves, which complain about others. Let's be honest: No competent dd would complain about fake tanks in normal mode, as tanks aren't needed there.

And in veteran mode there are mostly bad dds the problem, as people looking for a quick run don't bother with vet due to the current reward structure.

spartaxoxo

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.

A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

So, following your reasoning, a player with 17k HP, full dps-equip and a taunt wouldn't be a fake tank then, even if the boss one-hits them.

It's just a bad tank.

I think I can live with that. There aren't much fakes left then, are they? 😆

They don't even need a taunt!

There was a weak DPS queued as tank in my group not too long ago that tried to out damage me the other day. If intent is the only thing that matters, they were a real tank, despite having no taunt slotted. You see, that DPS said that aggro would go to him since he had the best DPS. It doesn't work that way anyway, but aggro stayed on me most of the fight. He didn't have a taunt slotted. But, since he intended to hold aggro he's just a bad tank not a fake. /s

Exactly! If someone is queued as tank and intends to do so, it's not a fake.

At least if we refuse to acknowledge the need for sufficient dps for damage dealers at the same time.

It's nonsensical to let dds do less dmg than support roles (or even let them use taunts and heals) without calling them fake, but expect tanks and healers to do their job exceedingly well, otherwise calling them fake.

Personally I think it's mainly the fake dds themselves, which complain about others. Let's be honest: No competent dd would complain about fake tanks in normal mode, as tanks aren't needed there.

And in veteran mode there are mostly bad dds the problem, as people looking for a quick run don't bother with vet due to the current reward structure.

Eh. I dislike fake tanks in normal and I'm a competent dd, mostly when they don't slot a taunt. While I'm perfectly capable of handling aggro, I queued DPS because I didn't feel like handling it. So, I don't particularly like it when I have to deal with it after waiting forever in queue. It's not going to stop a run completion but it is annoying.

Braffin

Refuse to even continue the dungeon with fake dd

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.

A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

So, following your reasoning, a player with 17k HP, full dps-equip and a taunt wouldn't be a fake tank then, even if the boss one-hits them.

It's just a bad tank.

I think I can live with that. There aren't much fakes left then, are they? 😆

They don't even need a taunt!

There was a weak DPS queued as tank in my group not too long ago that tried to out damage me the other day. If intent is the only thing that matters, they were a real tank, despite having no taunt slotted. You see, that DPS said that aggro would go to him since he had the best DPS. It doesn't work that way anyway, but aggro stayed on me most of the fight. He didn't have a taunt slotted. But, since he intended to hold aggro he's just a bad tank not a fake. /s

Exactly! If someone is queued as tank and intends to do so, it's not a fake.

At least if we refuse to acknowledge the need for sufficient dps for damage dealers at the same time.

It's nonsensical to let dds do less dmg than support roles (or even let them use taunts and heals) without calling them fake, but expect tanks and healers to do their job exceedingly well, otherwise calling them fake.

Personally I think it's mainly the fake dds themselves, which complain about others. Let's be honest: No competent dd would complain about fake tanks in normal mode, as tanks aren't needed there.

And in veteran mode there are mostly bad dds the problem, as people looking for a quick run don't bother with vet due to the current reward structure.

Eh. I dislike fake tanks in normal and I'm a competent dd, mostly when they don't slot a taunt. While I'm perfectly capable of handling aggro, I queued DPS because I didn't feel like handling it. So, I don't particularly like it when I have to deal with it after waiting forever in queue. It's not going to stop a run completion but it is annoying.

Yeah, I don't like them either and think it's rude behaviour.

But I also strongly dislike fake dds. That's why I run premade almost exclusively.

My point is: Whoever is complaining about fake tanks but refuses to acknowledge the existance of fake dds, is inconsistent in their reasoning.

There is either a minimum performance someone has to deliver in group content or there isn't.

spartaxoxo

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

ForzaRammer wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

If they have weapons and a few skills slotted they are not fake. They may be bad but not fake.

If they can’t fulfill their responsibilities they are fake.

Tank and healer also have weapon and skill slotted, according to you tank and healer are both subset of dd.

I knew I should have put in damage skills instead of just saying skills. Their responsibility is to do damage. Even if they stand behind the healer lobbing heavy attacks with a bow (my favorite pet peeve when healing) they are at least attempting to fulfill their role. They aren't very good at their role but they are not faking. They absolutely could be wasting the groups time if they come in doing that with vet content and if it became obvious after attempting first boss the group was going nowhere fast I would opt out.

All taunt does dmg, your revised argument still imply tank is a subset of dd.

Are you claiming tank is a subset of dd?

Not any more than I would claim a DD with a skill that provides some self heals is a healer. It is a bonus that a tank or a healer can provide some damage but it isn't their primary focus. You are categorized by your primary focus. There is no subsets. Just three primary roles.

1. Fact: All taunts does damage, taunt skill is a subset of damage skill
2. Your claim: use damage skill qualify a person as real dd
3. Combine these 2, real tanks use damage skill so they qualify as dd

Primary focus or whatever words you want to use, are you claiming primary focus of a real tank already include primary focus of a real dd?

No I am saying there are three roles. Anything beyond your assigned role is a bonus to the group. If a player that has selected damage as their role does damage they are not a fake. A fake tank is a tank with no taunt skills slotted. For a damage dealer to be fake they would have to have no damage skills slotted and not light nor heavy attack.
The primary focus of the tank is to tank. That means taunt and ideally control the fight. Being able to also contribute some damage is a happy bonus for the group.
If a healer has no healing skills slotted they are a fake healer. If they have one slotted and use it only every once in a while they are a bad healer. A damage dealer with a self heal isn't a healer nor a subset of a healer. That player is a damage dealer with something else to contribute besides just damage.
Being able to contribute beyond your role is part of the difference in a player good at their role and a player bad at their roll. It doesn't mean you are a subset of anything.

Tell me, how do you taunt without doing damage?

What you are describing as “duty of a tank” is your “duty of a dd” then some

You do not taunt without doing damage. I've never argued that. I've argued if you can preform your assigned role in any capacity you are not fake. The damage is a bonus to your duties as a tank. There are three roles. If you queue as a role and can perform that role in any way no matter how poorly you are not faking that role. There is no 2ndary or subset roles. A damage dealer that has an archer agro on him isn't tanking. He isn't a subset of a tank. He is a damage dealer. Just like a tank doing some damage is still a tank.

You claimed “tank need taunt”, you also claim “any damage make you a real dd”.

According to how you define the sets (tank/dd/healer/rest), a tank is already a dd, that’s exactly what subset means.

If you dispute this, show 1 example a player satisfy your description of tank while not satisfy your description of dd.

My example is simple. You are what you queued as. Nothing more than that.

A player queues as a tank and has a taunt. That player is a tank. That he does some DPS doesn't matter he is as he queued. He fills the role of a tank with his taunt so he is not a fake tank.
Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

So, following your reasoning, a player with 17k HP, full dps-equip and a taunt wouldn't be a fake tank then, even if the boss one-hits them.

It's just a bad tank.

I think I can live with that. There aren't much fakes left then, are they? 😆

They don't even need a taunt!

There was a weak DPS queued as tank in my group not too long ago that tried to out damage me the other day. If intent is the only thing that matters, they were a real tank, despite having no taunt slotted. You see, that DPS said that aggro would go to him since he had the best DPS. It doesn't work that way anyway, but aggro stayed on me most of the fight. He didn't have a taunt slotted. But, since he intended to hold aggro he's just a bad tank not a fake. /s

Exactly! If someone is queued as tank and intends to do so, it's not a fake.

At least if we refuse to acknowledge the need for sufficient dps for damage dealers at the same time.

It's nonsensical to let dds do less dmg than support roles (or even let them use taunts and heals) without calling them fake, but expect tanks and healers to do their job exceedingly well, otherwise calling them fake.

Personally I think it's mainly the fake dds themselves, which complain about others. Let's be honest: No competent dd would complain about fake tanks in normal mode, as tanks aren't needed there.

And in veteran mode there are mostly bad dds the problem, as people looking for a quick run don't bother with vet due to the current reward structure.

Eh. I dislike fake tanks in normal and I'm a competent dd, mostly when they don't slot a taunt. While I'm perfectly capable of handling aggro, I queued DPS because I didn't feel like handling it. So, I don't particularly like it when I have to deal with it after waiting forever in queue. It's not going to stop a run completion but it is annoying.

Yeah, I don't like them either and think it's rude behaviour.

But I also strongly dislike fake dds. That's why I run premade almost exclusively.

My point is: Whoever is complaining about fake tanks but refuses to acknowledge the existance of fake dds, is inconsistent in their reasoning.

There is either a minimum performance someone has to deliver in group content or there isn't.

Oh. I agree with that much. I just disagreed with that one point, because fake tanks ran me out of the DPS queue. Now if I run a normal dungeon with randoms, I queue as tank and slot a taunt. As a result, I run dungeons a lot less. It's not really that fun tanking stuff like the spit on the second boss of Scrivener's Hall on a character not built for tanking. I mean, I can do it, I can flat out solo that dungeon. But, it's not fun.

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

Shara_Wynn wrote: »

I am curious to know how much dps does a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also curious to know how are new players to obtain the sets required in order to get them the higher dps required for *** the content without doing... the content?

I ask this as I haven't been playing ESO for very long and never do random normal dungeons let alone veteran because all the toxicity around not being able to do the perfect run and not perfectly negotiating the mechanics, just puts new players like me off doing them at all, which is a shame. So I just duo dungeons with my other half and our companions to avoid all this.

I get there are guides to the mechanics, but you can read them all day and watch the videos, but sometimes it's still hard to appreciate a mechanic until you actually experience it yourself. So new players will never be perfect and if everyone just wants to do random dungeons with the perfect group, then that isn't conducive to enticing new players into the game or helping new players become better.

So what dps would a damage dealer have to achieve in order NOT to be a fake DD?

Also it would be helpful if ZOS could organize the dungeon tier system a little better because clearly most veteran basegame dungeons are NOT as difficult as most normal DLC dungeons, yet to the new player they are all just lumped together as normal and veteran and that is highly misleading.

Post is about vet.

Also no one yet suggested knowing mechanics as part of the minimal expectations for dd, knowing dungeon mechanics is also not a prerequisite of having a rotation.

kargen27

Katheriah wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Tank, healer and damage dealers are the three choices we have when we join groups. That is it, nothing else. There is no subset you get to choose. You are a tank, a healer or a damage dealer. If you queue as one of those roles and can contribute a minimum effort as that role you are not fake. Not good, but not fake.

I would like to respectfully point out that's your opinion and I don't agree with all of it.

It is very possible to be so bad at your role that the only label that should be applied is 'wants a carry'.

Between 0 gear+0 skills and a minimally functioning DD is unfortunately a pretty big grey area which includes some people that are clueless (I'm willing to help them out, sometimes) and people that just don't care (and I'm not carrying them).

I agree there are players that are looking for a carry. They perform badly at their role and really can't be bothered to get better. They are bad players and sometimes bad players are worse for the group than a player in a fake role.

boi_anachronism_

Never kick fake dd, rather just leave

Great example: i just got off. Had been in a vsh. Dps left at first boss bc he kept dying (we didnt kick him). 2nd dps showed up. We clear boss 2 but it was a ton of work for me and takes way longer then it should with two dps. Get to last boss. the tank was squishy - no big he was trying and had agro but he died a bunch. 2nd dps was dying to mechs and the burn was- it was decent but i figured out quick that i was the dps. I know this because he left and i tried to solo dps it. Burn was exacly the same and that was with me running shields and armor pots because the healer had to completely focus on keeping the tank alive.Tank ended up leaving. Thats a fake dps. No mechanical knowledge in a vet dlc with no dps to speak of.

preevious

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

As sure as a fake tank should be kicked and reported, a DD who is obviously inadequate FOR THE CONTENT HE QUEUES FOR should be kicked. Because he expects to be carried.

He is not a cheater tough. He's just a prick.

That is to say, if you are complaining about a fake DD in nFG .. he is not the problem. You are.

ForzaRammer

Try to kick all, possibly suck it up if kick fail

preevious wrote: »

As sure as a fake tank should be kicked and reported, a DD who is obviously inadequate FOR THE CONTENT HE QUEUES FOR should be kicked. Because he expects to be carried.

He is not a cheater tough. He's just a prick.

That is to say, if you are complaining about a fake DD in nFG .. he is not the problem. You are.

Poll is about vet

preevious

Only try to kick the fake when real dd can’t carry

ForzaRammer wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

As sure as a fake tank should be kicked and reported, a DD who is obviously inadequate FOR THE CONTENT HE QUEUES FOR should be kicked. Because he expects to be carried.

He is not a cheater tough. He's just a prick.

That is to say, if you are complaining about a fake DD in nFG .. he is not the problem. You are.

Poll is about vet

Ooops, indeed, my bad, I didn't read that well.
Then, yes, any DD south of 10-15k should stay clear of Vet.
And those numbers go a bit higher for DLC content.