Time to tone down that ridicolous Arcanist

AstroST

I get, you have to sell the chapter, but is past time to down down this pay2win class.
It's really not fun fighing agaist someone thjat can just crutch on a risdicolus shield.

merpins

In pvp? Sure, Arcanist is pretty tanky but it doesn't have much in the way of actually killing anybody, unless you don't know how to deal with it. If you know how to deal with an arcanist, it can be a pain to kill, but they won't be able to kill you.

In pve? Yeah, support skills, healing skills, and tanking skills could use some tuning since the class is very good in those aspects. Its damage is in a good spot, nerfs there would just kill the class, but it does need nerfs in those other aspects.

Twohothardware

The passives are what make Arcanist strong in PvP.

12% increased Crit Damage and Healing, 5% increased weapon spell damage, 15% increased Status Effect damage and 75% increased Status Effect chance, 991 Penetration added per Herald of the Tome skill slotted up to 5946 Penetration. Then theres multiple sources of increased armor and Crux weave armor automatically applies Minor Breach to anyone attacking you.

Compare that to passives on say Necromancer and you'll see why Arcanist is dealing more damage in PvP on top of being one of the tankiest classes.

LittlePinkDot

Twohothardware wrote: »

The passives are what make Arcanist strong in PvP.

12% increased Crit Damage and Healing, 5% increased weapon spell damage, 15% increased Status Effect damage and 75% increased Status Effect chance, 991 Penetration added per Herald of the Tome skill slotted up to 5946 Penetration. Then theres multiple sources of increased armor and Crux weave armor automatically applies Minor Breach to anyone attacking you.

Compare that to passives on say Necromancer and you'll see why Arcanist is dealing more damage in PvP on top of being one of the tankiest classes.

In PvP they have to use weapon skills though. So they won't he able to make much use of the class pen because it requires herald of Tomb abilities.

boi_anachronism_

Twohothardware wrote: »

The passives are what make Arcanist strong in PvP.

12% increased Crit Damage and Healing, 5% increased weapon spell damage, 15% increased Status Effect damage and 75% increased Status Effect chance, 991 Penetration added per Herald of the Tome skill slotted up to 5946 Penetration. Then theres multiple sources of increased armor and Crux weave armor automatically applies Minor Breach to anyone attacking you.

Compare that to passives on say Necromancer and you'll see why Arcanist is dealing more damage in PvP on top of being one of the tankiest classes.

You can't legitimately compare anything to the necro. Its bottom of the bin for everything dps based period. Especially in regards to pvp.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

Agreed. Necromancer needs its own help, but don't even use it as a comparison tool for Arcanist.

The arcanists limitations have already been spelt out. It doesn't need a need. The other classes instead can be improved.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Twohothardware

I don't want to see Arcanist nerfed because I think it's where the other classes need to be brought up to. Necromancer and Warden especially need buffs to their skills and passives because both were overnerfed in the past.

AstroST

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

I am also very sick of the toxicity shown by a lot of pvers. We got It, you are a lot more important but try at least to have some respect for people that love other aspects of the game.

We are not killling or sabotaging anything, we just love balanced things and not playing on easy mode.

[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

LittlePinkDot

AstroST wrote: »

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

I am also very sick of the toxicity shown by a lot of pvers. We got It, you are a lot more important but try at least to have some respect for people that love other aspects of the game.

We are not killling or sabotaging anything, we just love balanced things and not playing on easy mode.

Theres nothing wrong with arcanists impervious runeward.
The 9k portion of the shield only lasts 1 second and the heal needs 3 Crux. Meaning if you use it once you have to generate Crux again before you can use it as a heal again.

Your problem is the 60k health proc tank meta in PvP in general. My almost glass cannon 27k health bowcanist can certainly die, the shield only gives me a couple seconds to either attempt to finish the opponent off or get the hell out of dodge.

[edited to remove quote]

Amerises

Having not bought the chapter, I don’t know all the mechanics on the Arcanist, but when I fight them PvP, I’d have to agree that the shield is a little OP, and everything else seems pretty fair. The shield seems to last long enough for the HoTs to bring them full health pretty easy while I’m beaming them down with bastion, deadly, and CP for DoTs and DD. My beam hits HARD against others, but the arcanist can survive with as little as 10% health and get back to full in 2-3 GCDs.

Mr_Jord_Joe

Arcanist doesn't need nerfs, the other classes that need improvement...

LittlePinkDot

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Agreed. Necromancer needs its own help, but don't even use it as a comparison tool for Arcanist.

The arcanists limitations have already been spelt out. It doesn't need a need. The other classes instead can be improved.

[snip]

Actually it's Pvers that have been asking for fatecarver to be nerfed. They don't like how Arcanists can achieve high DPS without weaving.
Arcanist is a nice accessible class to people who are not normally good at DPS.
I'm not good at vet PVE, I'm hoping the Arcanist tank I'm building will help me and make DLC Vet dungeons more accessible for me.
So many monster helm sets I can't get, but want.

[edited to remove quote]

boi_anachronism_

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Agreed. Necromancer needs its own help, but don't even use it as a comparison tool for Arcanist.

The arcanists limitations have already been spelt out. It doesn't need a need. The other classes instead can be improved.

[snip]

Actually it's Pvers that have been asking for fatecarver to be nerfed. They don't like how Arcanists can achieve high DPS without weaving.
Arcanist is a nice accessible class to people who are not normally good at DPS.
I'm not good at vet PVE, I'm hoping the Arcanist tank I'm building will help me and make DLC Vet dungeons more accessible for me.
So many monster helm sets I can't get, but want.

Idk who those guys are. They are well accepted in end game circles I run in because they actually require skill and a lot of knowledge of mechs to properly time so they dont get interrupted every 30 seconds and lose all their dps. A parse is a parse. Content is different. Try running an arc well in vka hm with the block-a-thon of bosses and mobs as a rookie and see how good your dps is.

[edited to remove quote]

SandandStars

NB and DK are magnitudes above Arcanist.

Go into competitive pvp bgs and you won’t see Arcanists going 30-0.

Theyre a new class that can be built extremely tanky, but Arcanist’s offensive skills for pvp are non-existent compared to NB and DK.

Turtle_Bot

The only thing that needs fixing for the arcanist is the bug with the stun that prevents you from breaking free.

Outside of that, the class seems fine. Strong, yes, but nothing that isn't out of the ordinary when looking at DK, NB or warden, which is to be expected of a new class.
- Fatecarver is strong, but difficult to reliably land its full duration (unless you abuse the stun bug).
- The ultimate is strong but can be fairly reliably kited (again unless you abuse the stun bug).
- Arcanist is tanky thanks to the strong shields that also heal but this is nothing a DK, NB or warden cannot also pull off already thanks to block and super strong reliable heals.
- the execute is maybe a bit strong with the immovability there, but there's strong, common counters for that too (RaT), so I don't see that as an important issue that needs addressing anytime soon.

Personally, I'd like to see runeblades buffed a bit (maybe take some power from fatecarver if needed?), but that is more because I enjoy runeblades as a skill and want to see it be good to slot rather than fatecarver being overpowered.

AstroST

I see a lot o people didn't get it, I specifically talked bout their shield in pvp (see subforum - PvP and combat skills).
An avarage aracnist can use a little los and that ridicolous shield to always go full health and this is bad for pvp.
I never talked about their offensive potential, I don't care being killed in PvP, Pvp is about killing and being killed.
But spending half an hour to try to take down an arcanist is just not fun, so for now I just ignore them and go away.

And maybe look and that other ridicolous +18% stam AND mag recovery please

boi_anachronism_

AstroST wrote: »

I see a lot o people didn't get it, I specifically talked bout their shield in pvp (see subforum - PvP and combat skills).
An avarage aracnist can use a little los and that ridicolous shield to always go full health and this is bad for pvp.
I never talked about their offensive potential, I don't care being killed in PvP, Pvp is about killing and being killed.
But spending half an hour to try to take down an arcanist is just not fun, so for now I just ignore them and go away.

And maybe look and that other ridicolous +18% stam AND mag recovery please

I suppose they can just go sit over there with the horde of dk and warden pvp tanks that never die...so uhhh basically nothing new here.

LittlePinkDot

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

The only thing that needs fixing for the arcanist is the bug with the stun that prevents you from breaking free.

Outside of that, the class seems fine. Strong, yes, but nothing that isn't out of the ordinary when looking at DK, NB or warden, which is to be expected of a new class.
- Fatecarver is strong, but difficult to reliably land its full duration (unless you abuse the stun bug).
- The ultimate is strong but can be fairly reliably kited (again unless you abuse the stun bug).
- Arcanist is tanky thanks to the strong shields that also heal but this is nothing a DK, NB or warden cannot also pull off already thanks to block and super strong reliable heals.
- the execute is maybe a bit strong with the immovability there, but there's strong, common counters for that too (RaT), so I don't see that as an important issue that needs addressing anytime soon.

Personally, I'd like to see runeblades buffed a bit (maybe take some power from fatecarver if needed?), but that is more because I enjoy runeblades as a skill and want to see it be good to slot rather than fatecarver being overpowered.

I want a frost damage version of Rune blades

LittlePinkDot

AstroST wrote: »

I see a lot o people didn't get it, I specifically talked bout their shield in pvp (see subforum - PvP and combat skills).
An avarage aracnist can use a little los and that ridicolous shield to always go full health and this is bad for pvp.
I never talked about their offensive potential, I don't care being killed in PvP, Pvp is about killing and being killed.
But spending half an hour to try to take down an arcanist is just not fun, so for now I just ignore them and go away.

And maybe look and that other ridicolous +18% stam AND mag recovery please

That shield scales off health, not offensive resources. And it needs Crux to heal or it doesn't heal. Can't generate Crux from weapon skills either, which is basically what Arcanist needs to use in PvP for actually dealing damage.

If people couldn't rely on proc sets doing all their damage for them, we wouldn't have 50-60k health tanks in the first place.

Nerfing the Arcanist shield intended for PvE tanking isn't going to stop health stacking DK or warden polar wind tanks with procs either.

And arcanists have bad sustain as it is in PvE.
And procs don't consume resources, so you wouldn't be doing much of anything Nerfing their sustain except ruining the class in PvE.

Twohothardware

Crux are easy to always have up regardless if you’re running a cheese build with master DW.

If you’re not using Fatecarver nothing else is consuming your crux but your shield. Your Cruxweaver armor automatically generates a crux when you take damage. You then spam Flail a couple of times which heals you and immobilizes your attacker and your full crux.

OtarTheMad

Twohothardware wrote: »

Crux are easy to always have up regardless if you’re running a cheese build with master DW.

If you’re not using Fatecarver nothing else is consuming your crux but your shield. Your Cruxweaver armor automatically generates a crux when you take damage. You then spam Flail a couple of times which heals you and immobilizes your attacker and your full crux.

While true the issue is that there is a downside to a non-Fatecarver build and that’s the cost of the abilities. It’s really hard to spam that shield every 6 seconds, or when you need that heal when you got 3 crux. Especially since the Impervious Ward ability and the shield and the heal are all based on your health, so if you want to maximize that ability and all it’s benefits then you have to stack health. That means that recasting it and all the other abilities you need is harder because you have like 45k+ health which means your magicka and stamina is pretty low.

The only arcanists I’ve had trouble killing are tanks and honestly once I realized they were tanks I either just left the fight or ranged them because Arcanists tanks rely on you being in melee range. But truly, if you see someone in Cyrodiil with 45k or more health, especially Necro or Arcanist… just fight someone else. They are only there to troll or draw you into a trap.

AstroST

So I fought some other arcanist, basically they turtle down with that ridicolus shield and as soon you get bored, ignore them and engage other people they start hitting you form behind with that other ridicolous pragmatic fatecarver.
A skill that does a ton of damage, give a shield and immunity to interrupts lmao

OtarTheMad

AstroST wrote: »

So I fought some other arcanist, basically they turtle down with that ridicolus shield and as soon you get bored, ignore them and engage other people they start hitting you form behind with that other ridicolous pragmatic fatecarver.
A skill that does a ton of damage, give a shield and immunity to interrupts lmao

Fatecarver can hit hard for sure but has to be aimed so you can dodge it easily, also the interrupt part is kind of weird because you can get stunned, knocked back and all that while using it… happens to me all the time in PvE. I haven’t taken mine in PvP really yet but an NPC can use that two handed knock back on me, or I can stunned or knocked off balance… all stop my beam. I also used flame reach on an Arcanist trying to beam me and it knocked him back. So luckily there are counters.

katorga

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

The passives are what make Arcanist strong in PvP.

12% increased Crit Damage and Healing, 5% increased weapon spell damage, 15% increased Status Effect damage and 75% increased Status Effect chance, 991 Penetration added per Herald of the Tome skill slotted up to 5946 Penetration. Then theres multiple sources of increased armor and Crux weave armor automatically applies Minor Breach to anyone attacking you.

Compare that to passives on say Necromancer and you'll see why Arcanist is dealing more damage in PvP on top of being one of the tankiest classes.

In PvP they have to use weapon skills though. So they won't he able to make much use of the class pen because it requires herald of Tomb abilities.

"Having" to use weapon skills is not a bad thing. In fact, it is the meta thing.

But other than the annoying green rings around everyone. I don't notice Arcanists at all. Meh class.

Jierdanit

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Agreed. Necromancer needs its own help, but don't even use it as a comparison tool for Arcanist.

The arcanists limitations have already been spelt out. It doesn't need a need. The other classes instead can be improved.

[snip]

[snip]
Just because you are the majority of players doesn't mean PvP players don't deserve anything.

We already didn't get ANY new PvP content basically since Morrowind.
Imagine telling us to not ask for balance on top of that.

[snip]
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

Xandreia_

arcanist is fine as it is tbh the only thing that needs changing is probably the tentacle skill, the no cool down in the stun is pretty annoying, apart from that its not too bad. the only reason its tanky is because people build to not die, that would only get worse if it is changed

SandandStars

I’m going to stick by my original comment and say that arcanist does not have competitive offensive skills in PVP.

Good players simply do not get hit by fatecarver for more than half a second, Unless they are locked down by a zerg cc’ing them, and the delightful ESO cc lag dooms them anyways.

Arcanist in pvp is B tier, With the meaningless caveat that it can be built very tanky. I don’t want to play a tank that does no damage in pvp. I can’t imagine why anybody does.

LittlePinkDot

AstroST wrote: »

So I fought some other arcanist, basically they turtle down with that ridicolus shield and as soon you get bored, ignore them and engage other people they start hitting you form behind with that other ridicolous pragmatic fatecarver.
A skill that does a ton of damage, give a shield and immunity to interrupts lmao

Fatecarver sucks in PvP, I've never been killed by it once. It's so easy to avoid. You can literally Dodge roll through it.
I don't slot it at all on my PvP arcanist.
Weapon skills are superior to every offensive arcanist skill.


You also can't use fatecarver at the same time as impervious runeward shield. They both need 3 Crux to work and you can't hold 6 Crux. So they can't be used together.

There was a guy who posted about this back when Arcanist was on PTS. If you hit a fatecarver Arcanist hard first they will never be able to get off their back bar and will be stuck spending all their Crux on shield and healing, but will never have Crux to make fatecarver work.

Or if they try to attack you first and you just Dodge roll or sprint out of the way, they wasted all their crux and don't have any left to use fatecarver anymore. As soon as you see they wasted all their Crux, immediately attack. They also won't have Crux for healing either.

The Crux is literally a green neon sign telling you when they can attack with fatecarver or not.
You can attack with weapon skills at any time without a neon green sign telling everybody. Fatecarver is trash in PvP.

All my Crux is reserved for impervious runeward shield. I can use it to cover me while I snipe/poison injection/toxic barrage at full damage because bow skills don't need Crux.

jerj6925

AstroST wrote: »

I get, you have to sell the chapter, but is past time to down down this pay2win class.
It's really not fun fighing agaist someone thjat can just crutch on a risdicolus shield.

First let's fix the Dragon knights and wardens that requires 15+ people to kill first. Oldest problems first, as for arcanist... so few are far between compared to Dragon knights and Wardens.

boi_anachronism_

SandandStars wrote: »

I’m going to stick by my original comment and say that arcanist does not have competitive offensive skills in PVP.

Good players simply do not get hit by fatecarver for more than half a second, Unless they are locked down by a zerg cc’ing them, and the delightful ESO cc lag dooms them anyways.

Arcanist in pvp is B tier, With the meaningless caveat that it can be built very tanky. I don’t want to play a tank that does no damage in pvp. I can’t imagine why anybody does.

Yeah pretty much. Id never use carver in pvp. Its just trash. Basically what its got going for it in pvp is pen and a shield. I honestly think they did a good job of not making it too op for pvp and still having it be good in pve. Only thing i think they might get is a cooldown on immobilize for flail. Otherwise i think its fine tbh.

CameraBeardThePirate

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

SandandStars wrote: »

I’m going to stick by my original comment and say that arcanist does not have competitive offensive skills in PVP.

Good players simply do not get hit by fatecarver for more than half a second, Unless they are locked down by a zerg cc’ing them, and the delightful ESO cc lag dooms them anyways.

Arcanist in pvp is B tier, With the meaningless caveat that it can be built very tanky. I don’t want to play a tank that does no damage in pvp. I can’t imagine why anybody does.

Yeah pretty much. Id never use carver in pvp. Its just trash. Basically what its got going for it in pvp is pen and a shield. I honestly think they did a good job of not making it too op for pvp and still having it be good in pve. Only thing i think they might get is a cooldown on immobilize for flail. Otherwise i think its fine tbh.

Alright I'll bite.

Fatecarver is fantastic in PvP. People just suck at using it.

Camera Settings > Horizontal Offset - Make sure your toon is centered in the middle of your screen or aiming the beam is inaccurate.

Accessibility > Turn off Arcanist aim assist. It's trash, and you have to lead your target since ZOS never bothered fixing positional desync.

Never use beam without CC immunity. Never use it without 3 crux.

It's really not a bad ability. Its almost always the very top of my damage on CMX. It takes practice and a bit of game sense to know when to use it. You can get consistent 6k crits and up to 10k crits against players in a group setting. That's anywhere from 18k dps to 30k dps. It's free to cast with a couple cost reduction glyphs, and grants a 7-9k shield depending on stats. It's not bad.