Dungeon Finder penalty should be account wide

TaSheen

Yep. This is the person who considers those of us who use addons as "cheaters".

wilykcat

Nah, I don't think it should be account wide. No one knows the exact story behind the players faking roles. There are so many variables/reasons behind it. It's better not to assume.

The penalty being account wide will make it unfair for that player is their whole account gets locked from doing dungeons.

Example/senerio:
If a player assumes I'm faking dps for some reason, I get removed from group, and then a account wide dungeon penalty happens. I would be pretty upset about not being able to do dungeons on any of my characters. Then instead I would play League of Legends up until in ESO the penalty expires .

MerguezMan

Account-wide dungeon penalty: hard no, there are multiple scenarios where you'd get an unfair penalty without having done anything wrong.

Adding more requirements to queue as a given role: yes, that is long overdue.
- having a shield or frost staff and a taunt skill equipped to queue as tank
- having a heal staff and a group heal skill to queue as healer
- having a minimum of x damage and no taunt skill equipped to queue as dd
Basics.

Kappachi

Not only accountwide but it should stop you from queueing other content as well. If you're kicked out then you shouldn't face a penalty, or if you're the last person in a part where everyone left then you should also incur no penalty (but obviously if you're reported you should have a serious penalty applied if you refused to leave and griefed/trolled to make them kick you)

It doesn't make much sense as to why people are allowed to freely leave, swap char, queue another dungeon or even just IMMEDIATELY with no penalty queue any of the other game modes like battlegrounds or ToT.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Even though I want fake roles gone, and feel these players should be permanently account banned for all ill-gotten gains they have received. I do not think the groupfinder penalty should be accountwide, as the groupfinder, grouping, and dungeons themselves can sometimes bug out and give a penalty when it is not deserved.

permabanned? because they don't fit some people's opinions on what a role should do to their exact specifications?

Yikes.

Games have roles for a reason, if you're a healer then you MUST heal, you can do other supporting stuff or even slip in some DPS but your primary job is to HEAL. If you're a tank then you NEED to have TAUNT skills equipped and taunt the appropriate enemies/turn them to face the appropriate ways to avoid wipes, etc. It isn't just what one person feels, this is what MMO trifecta has been and people should be banned/face a penalty for fake tanking/fake healing, i report every fake i see before leaving.

wilykcat

Its just a game, chill-lax.

Also I recently discovered that spamming customer support with reports is not recommended.

Since when was it against the Code of Conduct and TOS to not play as a specific role, having non-specific gear/skills, and for making a silly mistake? No. Players can make their characters how ever they want, have what ever builds they want, play the roles they want, have what ever skills/abilities, and so forth. Its ok when players make mistakes, we all do. We gotta learn from them and move on.

Rage-quitting in dungeons is not fair to the rest of the team.

The game is meant to be fun and enjoyable for everyone, so lets keep it that way.

valenwood_vegan

Imagine thinking that players should actually be BANNED FROM THE GAME [not even just the dungeon finder] for not playing exactly how you expect them to. Definite yikes.

boi_anachronism_

Sarannah wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Even though I want fake roles gone, and feel these players should be permanently account banned for all ill-gotten gains they have received. I do not think the groupfinder penalty should be accountwide, as the groupfinder, grouping, and dungeons themselves can sometimes bug out and give a penalty when it is not deserved.

permabanned? because they don't fit some people's opinions on what a role should do to their exact specifications?

Yikes.

No, because they purposely waste three other players their time and feel themselves so important to skip the line. Meaning they had no right to those dungeoncomplete rewards in the first place. And both stole the place and rewards from another player who would queue up with their real role for that role.

Fake roles(and speedrunner) players destroy the entire MMO part of this game, making it into a horrible experience for almost everyone else. Who knows how many players they have already chased away from the game due to giving them bad experiences in groupplay.

So yes, permaban would fit the crime in my opinion. As players like these make or break a game, in this case break.

PS: I have no issue with players who are bad at their role, which is very different from a fake role.

Holy....wow. thats so wayyy over the top i can't even find the words.

tmbrinks

Kappachi wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Even though I want fake roles gone, and feel these players should be permanently account banned for all ill-gotten gains they have received. I do not think the groupfinder penalty should be accountwide, as the groupfinder, grouping, and dungeons themselves can sometimes bug out and give a penalty when it is not deserved.

permabanned? because they don't fit some people's opinions on what a role should do to their exact specifications?

Yikes.

i report every fake i see before leaving.

No wonder they can't fix bugs, we have people abusing the report function, they can't find the real reports in the middle of all these abusive ones.

I'm shocked there are two people who think players should be PERMANANTLY BANNED FROM THE GAME for something like this... it's like taking a bomb to an ant hill.

Now abusing the report function by making fake reports... that is a ban worthy offense.

Yikes indeed.

wilykcat

tmbrinks wrote: »

I'm shocked there are two people who think players should be PERMANANTLY BANNED FROM THE GAME for something like this

me too

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic, as it deals with dungeons.

Thank you for your understanding

boi_anachronism_

tmbrinks wrote: »

Kappachi wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Even though I want fake roles gone, and feel these players should be permanently account banned for all ill-gotten gains they have received. I do not think the groupfinder penalty should be accountwide, as the groupfinder, grouping, and dungeons themselves can sometimes bug out and give a penalty when it is not deserved.

permabanned? because they don't fit some people's opinions on what a role should do to their exact specifications?

Yikes.

i report every fake i see before leaving.

No wonder they can't fix bugs, we have people abusing the report function, they can't find the real reports in the middle of all these abusive ones.

I'm shocked there are two people who think players should be PERMANANTLY BANNED FROM THE GAME for something like this... it's like taking a bomb to an ant hill.

Now abusing the report function by making fake reports... that is a ban worthy offense.

Yikes indeed.

On top of the fact that there is no way to tell if a low level tank is actually just trying to figure it out or not a tank. Ive seen a level 500cp guy trying to tank with a greatsword. He didnt even have breach. How you gonna know. Its just gross and petty on top of everything else wrong with that comment. Lord have mercy.

Kite42

Scale transmutes (and XP maybe) to somewhat fit difficulty and time.

FG1 : 10 crystals
Black drake villa with all extra stuff (that has to be typed out and explained to the keeno that wants to do it) : 10 crystals

Obvious outcome is people just duck out. If FG1 was 4 crystals and a full DLC run, say, 12 crystals, then that would fix the vast majority of problems I think.

Jierdanit

Kite42 wrote: »

Scale transmutes (and XP maybe) to somewhat fit difficulty and time.

FG1 : 10 crystals
Black drake villa with all extra stuff (that has to be typed out and explained to the keeno that wants to do it) : 10 crystals

Obvious outcome is people just duck out. If FG1 was 4 crystals and a full DLC run, say, 12 crystals, then that would fix the vast majority of problems I think.

That would just lead to people leaving FG to get a DLC dungeon instead.

Marcus684

It seems to me that the simplest solution would be to implement a "base game dungeon only" toggle to the random dungeon finder to direct those that are queueing as fakes where they are most wanted and useful. Yes, it will definitely make queues for DLC dungeons longer, but at this point the system just seems to be broken, and trying to get people to change their behavior is utterly useless. The number of RNDs I do has dropped off lately, mostly because a majority of the dungeons I've been getting are DLC and most end up ruined by fakes and bailers. I'd rather wait longer to group with players that actually want to run DLC dungeons.

Poss

wilykcat wrote: »

The penalty being account wide will make it unfair for that player is their whole account gets locked from doing dungeons.

Locked for 15 minutes isn’t the end of the world. It’s the speed runners who wanna rush through random dailies on all of the toons that are likely to queue as a tank and then leave 2 seconds in to LoM. Simple, don’t leave or fake queue. It’s selfish.

Braffin

Marcus684 wrote: »

It seems to me that the simplest solution would be to implement a "base game dungeon only" toggle to the random dungeon finder to direct those that are queueing as fakes where they are most wanted and useful. Yes, it will definitely make queues for DLC dungeons longer, but at this point the system just seems to be broken, and trying to get people to change their behavior is utterly useless. The number of RNDs I do has dropped off lately, mostly because a majority of the dungeons I've been getting are DLC and most end up ruined by fakes and bailers. I'd rather wait longer to group with players that actually want to run DLC dungeons.

Would be a solution, if no transmutes are earned for placing oneself in a "base game dungeon only" queue.

ForzaRammer

dungeon finder penalty should be removed completely, no one should be penalized at all for refusing to carry human dd that is no better than companion bot

AlterBlika

MerguezMan wrote: »

Adding more requirements to queue as a given role: yes, that is long overdue.
- having a shield or frost staff and a taunt skill equipped to queue as tank
Basics.

You don't need a shield or frost staff to tank dungeons. Most of them are soloable on vet, and with other dps and a dedicated healer it's even easier. Yes, it requires some skill and different sets sometimes but it's doable. I could just throw out a dot and slot a taunt and I'm good. I don't even consider normals...
Sure there's a problem with fake tanks but you're just forcing players to play specific weapons for the role. It's like forcing dds to go only with dw and ban bow/2h/staff completely.

Although I would agree with needing a taunt as a requirement.

AlterBlika

Marcus684 wrote: »

It seems to me that the simplest solution would be to implement a "base game dungeon only" toggle to the random dungeon finder to direct those that are queueing as fakes where they are most wanted and useful. Yes, it will definitely make queues for DLC dungeons longer, but at this point the system just seems to be broken, and trying to get people to change their behavior is utterly useless. The number of RNDs I do has dropped off lately, mostly because a majority of the dungeons I've been getting are DLC and most end up ruined by fakes and bailers. I'd rather wait longer to group with players that actually want to run DLC dungeons.

I'd like it to be the way that if you select more than 10 dungeons (specific dungeons in group finder) you still get the reward, or something like that. Also more rewards for dlc, for vet, and finally allow us to go there with premade groups (even incomplete or solo) and get rewards.

Marcus684

Braffin wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

It seems to me that the simplest solution would be to implement a "base game dungeon only" toggle to the random dungeon finder to direct those that are queueing as fakes where they are most wanted and useful. Yes, it will definitely make queues for DLC dungeons longer, but at this point the system just seems to be broken, and trying to get people to change their behavior is utterly useless. The number of RNDs I do has dropped off lately, mostly because a majority of the dungeons I've been getting are DLC and most end up ruined by fakes and bailers. I'd rather wait longer to group with players that actually want to run DLC dungeons.

Would be a solution, if no transmutes are earned for placing oneself in a "base game dungeon only" queue.

In that case the fakes and would still queue for the full set of dungeons and we'd still have the same problem, because why else are they queueing at all except for the transmutes?

I think a better solution would be to give fewer transmutes for the base game set so the fakes still get their daily transmutes, but a higher number for the full dungeon set as an incentive for those that are actually willing to put in the effort for DLC dungeons.

Braffin

Marcus684 wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

It seems to me that the simplest solution would be to implement a "base game dungeon only" toggle to the random dungeon finder to direct those that are queueing as fakes where they are most wanted and useful. Yes, it will definitely make queues for DLC dungeons longer, but at this point the system just seems to be broken, and trying to get people to change their behavior is utterly useless. The number of RNDs I do has dropped off lately, mostly because a majority of the dungeons I've been getting are DLC and most end up ruined by fakes and bailers. I'd rather wait longer to group with players that actually want to run DLC dungeons.

Would be a solution, if no transmutes are earned for placing oneself in a "base game dungeon only" queue.

In that case the fakes and would still queue for the full set of dungeons and we'd still have the same problem, because why else are they queueing at all except for the transmutes?

I think a better solution would be to give fewer transmutes for the base game set so the fakes still get their daily transmutes, but a higher number for the full dungeon set as an incentive for those that are actually willing to put in the effort for DLC dungeons.

I agree partially.
The problem I have with this solution is the disparity to pledge rewards.

Actually you get 5 transmutes for vet hm, 3 for vet and 1 for normal.

I'm fine if people earn 10 transmutes for the full random experience, as they keep the queues somewhat healthy by using the finder. Sure, if one is lucky, it's an easy dungeon with a good team, but worse experiences are possible (and probably regarding to this forum).

But handing out transmutes for guaranteed easy content (normal base game dungeons) is way over the top for the effort made imo.

Maybe it's better to make the transmute reward once per account, while increasing the amount gained accordingly.

So people would've less need to speedrun (no more daily rnd on X toons, but only once).

It would also lead to longer queues tho, but that's the case with every action taken, as long as support roles are as unattractive for pugging as it's currently the case.

DivineKitty

Making the penalty account wide is way too harsh, because there's been a few time in the past here, I've been in a pre-made and faked tank or healer for easy content that doesn't need either (E.G. a Guildmate has said "I have a new level 10 character, anyone want some easy transmutes while I'm leveling up?") and then I later queue for actual content, and I've forgotten to swap my role back. in this case, should my entire account be penalised for an honest mistake? No.

Likewise, I think the solution to the whole Deliberate Fake Roles problem would be to either have a base-game only RND queue, (because unless you only get a full team of new players, you literally don't need a tank or healer) or you make an "Anything Goes" queue. You could get any role in this, you could get 3 healers, you could get 4 DPS, go wild.

AvalonRanger

The real problem is unreasonable penalty of the innocence fair players.

If you're real DD or real healer, and didn't queue as fake tank, then you're innocence.
But, you'll also suffer unreasonable punishment which is long waiting time by the fake tank cheaters.

AvalonRanger

Actually say, I can't understand why the people are not willing to become real tank.

I know that real tank doesn't fit for the solo trial or PVP because of low damage. But they're tough.
Not so easily killed by damage only "ganker" player in PVP zone, and you can do solo in the
most of overland. There're many of benefit to become real tank.

Let's feel the situation that "I'm great wall for the team mate" in front of dangerous foe.
It's really stressful moment. I know it as the tank. But you can feel honor at same time.

Jierdanit

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Actually say, I can't understand why the people are not willing to become real tank.

I know that real tank doesn't fit for the solo trial or PVP because of low damage. But they're tough.
Not so easily killed by damage only "ganker" player in PVP zone, and you can do solo in the
most of overland. There're many of benefit to become real tank.

Let's feel the situation that "I'm great wall for the team mate" in front of dangerous foe.
It's really stressful moment. I know it as the tank. But you can feel honor at same time.

The only times I tried to actually tank in PvE usually both the DDs combined had about the same damage as my tank.
That is just absolutely no fun.
More than enough reason for me to not tank, at least in PuGs.

M0ntie

Poss wrote: »

Blood_again wrote: »

To OP:
As for accountwide penalties - I'm strongly against this idea.
There were lots of situations when low level or low CP characters were kicked at start, probably because their low level.
There shouldn't be that kind of punishment that hits hard to innocent. Even if the real toxic behaviour avoids punishment because of this. We need other measures.

Ok that’s fair and I didn’t think about that scenario.

A lot of games have a restriction on the amount of games you can leave. Perhaps something similar, you leave x amount of dungeons over x amount of time you get your account banned from queuing for a period.

I don’t know. The current system and the amount of fake tanks that queue for quicker dungeons just isn’t working. I love doing my dungeons, fills my sticker book and gets me transmutes but the amount of times I end up raging because I receive a penalty because the dungeon falls apart and I have to leave just makes me not want to play

If you are kicked you DON'T get the penalty.
I strongly agree with the OPs proposal.
When you queue for a random dungeon with a role, you are expected to fulfil that role. ie if ur a tank taunt, if ur a healer you should have at least 1 group heal. No excuse for not making an attempt at the role.

So often these fake tanks (low hp no taunt) are also low dps so they are basically skipping the queue and expecting to be carried

AstroST

Today I left the gropup two times, I was on a real tank, as soon dungeon started coupled guy started sprinting without asking in chat if everyone was ok with that.
I'm not really in the mood anymore to deal with this kind of people, so i just leave, wait for my penalty do drop out and requeue.

AvalonRanger

Braffin wrote: »

How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?

And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.

"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"

Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.

Braffin

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?

And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.

"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"

Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.

That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.

The regular rant of the anti-fake-tank-crowd won't change anything, if they furthermore refuse to git gud themselves, as probably 80% of them are subpar fake dds which refuse to learn this game properly.

These guys are keeping support roles away from finder (as in every other mmo btw), while ranting, abusing the report function and asking for permabans for fellow players.

In my opinion they deserve what they get.

the1andonlyskwex

Braffin wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?

And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.

"How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning?"

Because, real tank will not do like those behavior.

That's wrong. Alone in this very thread (and every other too of course) several tanks told us, that they leave group right at the beginning, if they suspect the presence of fake dds.

But all of those are leaving after seeing the fake DDs. The leavers mentioned in the OP are leaving without even knowing who else is in the group.