Dungeon Finder penalty should be account wide

Poss

Two times today I’ve had a fake tank leave at the start of a dungeon because it was a dlc dungeon and he wanted to rush through Fungal 1 or something. It’s so easy for them to just leave, speed run on another character and then return to do their daily shortly after.

I’m absolutely sick of this and if I didn’t so desperately need the transmutes I’d have rage quit already and done something else.

As soon as the tank leaves, it triggers a chain reaction and the rest of the group just leaves because the dungeon will never fill with a new tank

Please rework the dungeon finder, make the penalty account wide so it might actually encourage them to slot a taunt and actually try and tank rather than spoiling the experience for the other 3 people

Poss

(I’m Xbox EU and pop is low so requeuing will 90% of the time not yield us a new tank)

Braffin

How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?

And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.

the1andonlyskwex

Agree 100%.

The current (non-)penalty just encourages fake tanks and their toxic behavior.

the1andonlyskwex

Braffin wrote: »

How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?

And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.

If it's not a fake tank it's some other sort of lazy/toxic person who queued for a random dungeon and didn't like what they got.

That said, I definitely understand the frustration of just wanting to knock out a quick daily random and getting dropped into a DLC dungeon that's likely to take 2-10x as long as a base game dungeon. In fact, it's the main reason I don't currently sub to ESO+.

Blood_again

Braffin wrote: »

How do you know you're dealing with a "fake tank" if the player is leaving right at the beginning? Aren't there other possible reasons for leaving?

And no, we don't need accountwide penalties.

It is simple:
You ported to a dungeon
You see tank's hp bar, this "tank" has 23-25k hp
"Tank" see the dungeon he ended up in (the DLC one) and immediately leave the group.

It is systematic, not a single case.
It happens 19/20 in DLC dungeons.
It happens with tanks that have signs of fake role. Sometimes happens with heals also, but it is seldom.
It happens often before tank can see all other group mates, because I often got first in dungeon and those "tanks" run away even if they were second.

There is no need to call Mr. Holmes. It is a fake tank that wanted to run short and easy dungeon (doesn't want to spend time in long and harder DLC one), or those fair good 23k-hp tanks are somewhy afraid of my characters in their group. What do you think?

To OP:
As for accountwide penalties - I'm strongly against this idea.
There were lots of situations when low level or low CP characters were kicked at start, probably because their low level.
There shouldn't be that kind of punishment that hits hard to innocent. Even if the real toxic behaviour avoids punishment because of this. We need other measures.

Zyva

I absolutely DISAGREE.

Purely because the amount of times a dungeon queue has bugged out resulting in a stupid fake penalty. I would rage quit if I couldnt at least swap to another character to queue.

Calastir

A better solution would be an option to deselect the harder DLC Dungeons.

Destai

Honestly, I think he did the right thing. I'd rather have them leave then find out 3 bosses in they're not a fake in. To go one step further, I don't think there should be a leaving penalty. I got into a scrivener's hall and there was a fake healer. I voted to kick, and the other DPS wouldn't vote for him. I was tired of wiping, so I left. Penalty seems unfair to me in that circumstance.

Poss

Blood_again wrote: »

To OP:
As for accountwide penalties - I'm strongly against this idea.
There were lots of situations when low level or low CP characters were kicked at start, probably because their low level.
There shouldn't be that kind of punishment that hits hard to innocent. Even if the real toxic behaviour avoids punishment because of this. We need other measures.

Ok that’s fair and I didn’t think about that scenario.

A lot of games have a restriction on the amount of games you can leave. Perhaps something similar, you leave x amount of dungeons over x amount of time you get your account banned from queuing for a period.

I don’t know. The current system and the amount of fake tanks that queue for quicker dungeons just isn’t working. I love doing my dungeons, fills my sticker book and gets me transmutes but the amount of times I end up raging because I receive a penalty because the dungeon falls apart and I have to leave just makes me not want to play

p00tx

If someone is queueing as a tank, then leaving once they see the dungeon, chances are they're a real tank who assessed the group and decided they didn't want to spend next hour slogging through content. Tanking is already rough and largely thankless in this game, but it's actually miserable in a super slow group, especially when any attempt to add to the dps is met with "fake tank!". Same goes for healer in random dungeon queues. It just doesn't feel worth the time spent. I won't waste my time and energy if the end result is someone abusing the reporting system by reporting me for throwing on a damage skill to speed things along. No thanks. I just don't trust the community enough anymore.

Poss

p00tx wrote: »

If someone is queueing as a tank, then leaving once they see the dungeon, chances are they're a real tank who assessed the group and decided they didn't want to spend next hour slogging through content. Tanking is already rough and largely thankless in this game, but it's actually miserable in a super slow group, especially when any attempt to add to the dps is met with "fake tank!". Same goes for healer in random dungeon queues. It just doesn't feel worth the time spent. I won't waste my time and energy if the end result is someone abusing the reporting system by reporting me for throwing on a damage skill to speed things along. No thanks. I just don't trust the community enough anymore.

Someone who queues as a tank with 22k health and rocking dual wield daggers is definitely a “real tank” lol

Played this game long enough to be able to differentiate between real and fake tanks my guy and it’s those people I’m referring to.

Kisakee

DD's hate this trick. But serious, how about getting a tank youself?

Dagoth_Rac

Calastir wrote: »

A better solution would be an option to deselect the harder DLC Dungeons.

How would you ever get fills for a DLC dungeon, then? No one, absolutely no one, would select to include DLC dungeons in their random queue. So anyone who queues for a specific DLC dungeon, because they want the skill point, or they want gear, or they just like the way it looks, will be out of luck. It will become impossible to do a DLC dungeon, even on normal, without a pre-formed 4-man group.

"We have a group finder! But it only works for base game dungeons!" is what that boils down to.

I realize a lot of players want their transmutes and XP as a kind of glorified login reward. But it is supposed to be a reward for helping other players fill in their dungeon groups. The transmutes and XP are a reward because ZOS is asking you to do something you might not normally do, as a service to other players. It is not a reward just for doing a dungeon or just for playing the game.

Braffin

Poss wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

If someone is queueing as a tank, then leaving once they see the dungeon, chances are they're a real tank who assessed the group and decided they didn't want to spend next hour slogging through content. Tanking is already rough and largely thankless in this game, but it's actually miserable in a super slow group, especially when any attempt to add to the dps is met with "fake tank!". Same goes for healer in random dungeon queues. It just doesn't feel worth the time spent. I won't waste my time and energy if the end result is someone abusing the reporting system by reporting me for throwing on a damage skill to speed things along. No thanks. I just don't trust the community enough anymore.

Someone who queues as a tank with 22k health and rocking dual wield daggers is definitely a “real tank” lol

Played this game long enough to be able to differentiate between real and fake tanks my guy and it’s those people I’m referring to.

"Real Tanks" usually run their dungeons with likeminded people in premade groups.

Pugs brought their problems upon themselves by fake dding and mistreating support roles for years.

Let's face it: Aside a few altruists random group finder is primarily filled with "special" people to say the least. That goes for all roles of course, not only tanks.

p00tx

Poss wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

If someone is queueing as a tank, then leaving once they see the dungeon, chances are they're a real tank who assessed the group and decided they didn't want to spend next hour slogging through content. Tanking is already rough and largely thankless in this game, but it's actually miserable in a super slow group, especially when any attempt to add to the dps is met with "fake tank!". Same goes for healer in random dungeon queues. It just doesn't feel worth the time spent. I won't waste my time and energy if the end result is someone abusing the reporting system by reporting me for throwing on a damage skill to speed things along. No thanks. I just don't trust the community enough anymore.

Someone who queues as a tank with 22k health and rocking dual wield daggers is definitely a “real tank” lol

Played this game long enough to be able to differentiate between real and fake tanks my guy and it’s those people I’m referring to.

The only thing required to tank in dungeons is a taunt if you're good at the game, and there are taunts that don't require a sword and shield.At the upper end, damage is so high, you can complete a lot of content without sticking to old school role requirements. I think the problem lies in that randoms have a mixed bag of players, most of which are nowhere near the upper end and both ends have unrealistic expectations of one another.

Kisakee

p00tx wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

If someone is queueing as a tank, then leaving once they see the dungeon, chances are they're a real tank who assessed the group and decided they didn't want to spend next hour slogging through content. Tanking is already rough and largely thankless in this game, but it's actually miserable in a super slow group, especially when any attempt to add to the dps is met with "fake tank!". Same goes for healer in random dungeon queues. It just doesn't feel worth the time spent. I won't waste my time and energy if the end result is someone abusing the reporting system by reporting me for throwing on a damage skill to speed things along. No thanks. I just don't trust the community enough anymore.

Someone who queues as a tank with 22k health and rocking dual wield daggers is definitely a “real tank” lol

Played this game long enough to be able to differentiate between real and fake tanks my guy and it’s those people I’m referring to.

The only thing required to tank in dungeons is a taunt if you're good at the game, and there are taunts that don't require a sword and shield.At the upper end, damage is so high, you can complete a lot of content without sticking to old school role requirements. I think the problem lies in that randoms have a mixed bag of players, most of which are nowhere near the upper end and both ends have unrealistic expectations of one another.

This. I made a 2Hand Brawler build with Tormentor, Rush of Agony and Master 2Hander using Stampede to taunt while rocking a Resto staff on backbar. I don't need anyone in a normal dungeon PUG.

Marcus684

p00tx wrote: »

Poss wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

If someone is queueing as a tank, then leaving once they see the dungeon, chances are they're a real tank who assessed the group and decided they didn't want to spend next hour slogging through content. Tanking is already rough and largely thankless in this game, but it's actually miserable in a super slow group, especially when any attempt to add to the dps is met with "fake tank!". Same goes for healer in random dungeon queues. It just doesn't feel worth the time spent. I won't waste my time and energy if the end result is someone abusing the reporting system by reporting me for throwing on a damage skill to speed things along. No thanks. I just don't trust the community enough anymore.

Someone who queues as a tank with 22k health and rocking dual wield daggers is definitely a “real tank” lol

Played this game long enough to be able to differentiate between real and fake tanks my guy and it’s those people I’m referring to.

The only thing required to tank in dungeons is a taunt if you're good at the game, and there are taunts that don't require a sword and shield.At the upper end, damage is so high, you can complete a lot of content without sticking to old school role requirements. I think the problem lies in that randoms have a mixed bag of players, most of which are nowhere near the upper end and both ends have unrealistic expectations of one another.

There's nothing worse than queueing a RND as a DD and getting a DLC dungeon like LoM and seeing a fake tank, fake healer and a low-CP DD. I've toughed this scenario out more times than I can count, usually after 1 or 2 of them have bailed.

Yes, you can burn through any normal dungeon with enough damage but it takes at least 1 very experienced DD, and even then it becomes such a slog.

ApoAlaia

OK, so I hear what you say OP but here is a trend that might have existed for a long time but personally I have only encountered lately.

For reasons I don't understand if you queue as DD while in group with a character in a support role the queue pops instantly; like, in under 10s.

However if you just queue as DD on your own you can be anything between 10m (if the dungeon is popular and/or a pledge) and 1hr+ (if the dungeon is neither of those things) in the queue.

So, some players have taken it to group up with their alt - remember in ESO there is a strict no-multiboxing policy so you can only control one character at a time - instantly get ported to the dungeon and potentially get a free ride for their alt that cannot get kicked because you need three 'yeppers' to do that.

In my experience players who have so little regard for others don't really bother to bring a support character either.

Therefore the other two players can either leave the instance and take the hit - whatever time spent in the queue wasted plus the penalty - or give someone's alt a free 3DD ride through the dungeon, whether they want it or not.

With what you suggest, making the penalty account-wide, who are you punishing here?

EDIT: Also after having encountered this behaviour I am left wondering how many groups where one player 'vanishes' as soon as it ports to the dungeon is the same scenario, is just the fact that the actual person has not quite shed all shame just yet and kicks the alt from the instance rather than forcing the other two players to carry it.

Poss

Kisakee wrote: »

DD's hate this trick. But serious, how about getting a tank youself?

I do have a tank. I also have a healer. When I cycle through my characters to do my randoms, I will queue with them and queue correctly.

I join a random on one of my DDs, I get Lair of Marselok and the 22k-healthed “tank” will off and leave NOT because he has some family emergency 2 seconds into the dungeon or because he doesn’t like the fact the healer is only level 49 but because he isn’t a tank and won’t be able to deal with Selene’s spider or simple because he didn’t get Fungal I and doesn’t want to spend an extra 10 minutes for 10 transmutes.

Dungeons are group content, not intended for solo. These people who leave at the start and force the other 3 players to deal with it are selfish. No other word for it.

derkaiserliche

Sadly it punished people not tolerating bad behaviour as well, so its a bad idea for me.

I wouldnt want to be forced to deal with a 300cp fakeheal in hard veteran dungeons since i get punished accountwide when i leave..

omnidoh

If it's not Vet, it really doesn't matter.
I have two accounts, one with CP and one without.
Using crafted gear on a non-CP character, I can "fake" tank a norm in half medium, half light, without a monster set, and do just fine with a single taunt of choice. Heck, even the Destro staff taunt is more than sufficient.

Tanks simply aren't needed for normal content anymore.
Even DLC's aren't that difficult by comparison to their Veteran versions.
Aside to one-shot mechanics which even tanks should avoid, everything else can be mitigated with light healing, blocking, and positioning.
Folks who struggle with completing a normal dungeon would be (and have been since MMO-Time immemorial) advised to educate themselves for said role and fill-in when necessary.

At this point in my 25+ year gaming career, I have completely exhausted whatever Sympathy might have existed.
I can definitively say, "Yes, it really is that easy."
Once upon a time, it was not. But those times are gone, drowned in the rising tides of inclusive profiteering where participation trophies and micro-transactions reign.

Your best solution will be what history has consistently proven always has been: Learn and practice.
Or accept failure.

Blood_again

Poss wrote: »

I don’t know. The current system and the amount of fake tanks that queue for quicker dungeons just isn’t working. I love doing my dungeons, fills my sticker book and gets me transmutes but the amount of times I end up raging because I receive a penalty because the dungeon falls apart and I have to leave just makes me not want to play

Sorry to hear that.

I think missing tank situation can be solved with companion most of the times. Even poor leveled and white geared companion with taunt makes the DLC normal run way easier for middle-skilled group, if you remember to resurrect companion after some mechanics. It's a crutch, but it works. I've done Bal Sunnar with weak alts this way twice this week.

Two other solutions are premade groups or playing tank.
Premade requires more moves that just 2 clicks in LFG, but it solves the problem if there is such a struggle with randoms. You even don't have to find a real tank. Tough DD like "I'll taunt and will die twice a minute" will be OK if the whole group agreed That's how premades work.
As for playing tank, well, it can be not the way you enjoy the game. Anyway it is a guarantee that your group won't lose a tank from start. You can give it a try. Who knows, may be XBox community will obtain one more good tank.

Sarannah

Even though I want fake roles gone, and feel these players should be permanently account banned for all ill-gotten gains they have received. I do not think the groupfinder penalty should be accountwide, as the groupfinder, grouping, and dungeons themselves can sometimes bug out and give a penalty when it is not deserved.

boi_anachronism_

1000% no. Its too often i run my vet randoms and find its an incredibly inexperienced group or one with a fake tank expecting me to carry them. I should be able to leave that without having a penalty. At the very min i should be able to swap toons and find a new dungeon, not be confined to dealing with the mess until they give up and disband and i have to pay for all my trashed armor....

ShadowPaladin

I may have an interesting idea to solve this *queue dungeon finder random and leave when you get something you dislike* problem.

The main reason people do queue is because of the daily reward. So, what if ZOS would make it so that if a player *actively* leaves a random dungeon or does not return/log back in within a certain time frame, after being kicked/disconnected by the system, he will loose the possibility to get the daily (purple) random dungeon reward and will be switched to the common (blue) reward.

With that people would think twice before leaving and if they get a discon they would try to get back in fast, so that they still have the possibility to get the daily purple reward .

MidniteOwl1913

When the tank (fake or not it doesn't matter) it almost always means that that run is dead. The wait for a replacement is so long the dungeon will be over (one way or the other) before one appears.

I queue as a healer (yes a real one) and even if I land in a dungeon I hate (March of Sacrifices I'm looking at you!) I don't bail because like tanks it takes a while to replace a healer and I owe it to the other 3 players to fulfill the role I signed up for. Group content isn't solo, you owe something to other people and showing up is the very least you can do.

tmbrinks

Sarannah wrote: »

Even though I want fake roles gone, and feel these players should be permanently account banned for all ill-gotten gains they have received. I do not think the groupfinder penalty should be accountwide, as the groupfinder, grouping, and dungeons themselves can sometimes bug out and give a penalty when it is not deserved.

permabanned? because they don't fit some people's opinions on what a role should do to their exact specifications?

Yikes.

Sarannah

tmbrinks wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Even though I want fake roles gone, and feel these players should be permanently account banned for all ill-gotten gains they have received. I do not think the groupfinder penalty should be accountwide, as the groupfinder, grouping, and dungeons themselves can sometimes bug out and give a penalty when it is not deserved.

permabanned? because they don't fit some people's opinions on what a role should do to their exact specifications?

Yikes.

No, because they purposely waste three other players their time and feel themselves so important to skip the line. Meaning they had no right to those dungeoncomplete rewards in the first place. And both stole the place and rewards from another player who would queue up with their real role for that role.

Fake roles(and speedrunner) players destroy the entire MMO part of this game, making it into a horrible experience for almost everyone else. Who knows how many players they have already chased away from the game due to giving them bad experiences in groupplay.

So yes, permaban would fit the crime in my opinion. As players like these make or break a game, in this case break.

PS: I have no issue with players who are bad at their role, which is very different from a fake role.

Braffin

Sarannah wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Even though I want fake roles gone, and feel these players should be permanently account banned for all ill-gotten gains they have received. I do not think the groupfinder penalty should be accountwide, as the groupfinder, grouping, and dungeons themselves can sometimes bug out and give a penalty when it is not deserved.

permabanned? because they don't fit some people's opinions on what a role should do to their exact specifications?

Yikes.

No, because they purposely waste three other players their time and feel themselves so important to skip the line. Meaning they had no right to those dungeoncomplete rewards in the first place. And both stole the place and rewards from another player who would queue up with their real role for that role.

Fake roles(and speedrunner) players destroy the entire MMO part of this game, making it into a horrible experience for almost everyone else. Who knows how many players they have already chased away from the game due to giving them bad experiences in groupplay.

So yes, permaban would fit the crime in my opinion. As players like these make or break a game, in this case break.

PS: I have no issue with players who are bad at their role, which is very different from a fake role.

So, not meeting your expectations is literally a crime now.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

tmbrinks

Sarannah wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Even though I want fake roles gone, and feel these players should be permanently account banned for all ill-gotten gains they have received. I do not think the groupfinder penalty should be accountwide, as the groupfinder, grouping, and dungeons themselves can sometimes bug out and give a penalty when it is not deserved.

permabanned? because they don't fit some people's opinions on what a role should do to their exact specifications?

Yikes.

No, because they purposely waste three other players their time and feel themselves so important to skip the line. Meaning they had no right to those dungeoncomplete rewards in the first place. And both stole the place and rewards from another player who would queue up with their real role for that role.

Fake roles(and speedrunner) players destroy the entire MMO part of this game, making it into a horrible experience for almost everyone else. Who knows how many players they have already chased away from the game due to giving them bad experiences in groupplay.

So yes, permaban would fit the crime in my opinion. As players like these make or break a game, in this case break.

PS: I have no issue with players who are bad at their role, which is very different from a fake role.

1. There is absolutely no requirement to use the group finder.
2. There is no limit to the rewards, it's not like once 30 people claim it, you can no longer get it. So "stolen" is way too strong of a word.
3. You can always play in your own group if it's that big of a deal
4. Who decides if it's somebody actively faking... or if they're just bad? You?

Completely destroying another players account because they don't meet some players' expectations. To me those are the players who "feel themselves so important"... saying that everybody should cater to them.

So, I reiterate... Yikes.