ZOS, take a look how Baldur Gates 3 makes "Argonians"

AnduinTryggva

I've purchased BG3 and play a dragonborn. I think this is how Argonians should look like in ESO.

They did really an outstanding work with the head and body model.

wilykcat

What do they look like in BG3? Any images so I can better understand the comparison between eso and bg3 lizard people models?

TybaltKaine

There's a difference between a Dragonborn from D&D and an Argonian. Dragonborn are literally humanoid dragon hybrids created by dragons to serve them. They look like dragons because that is what they are.

Argonians were specifically created by the Hist to live in their environment, notably swampy terrain, and are as a result more amphibious in nature. Argonians are closer to frogs and salamanders than to lizards.

EDIT: D&D also has Lizardfolk, which are completely unrelated to Dragonborn and are the traditional "lizard people" that you see in many older fantasy games and fantasy stories in general.

emilyhyoyeon

I like ESO argonians

Lumenn

Nostalgia has me loving iksar, but if they introduced Sarpa into ESO I could have a new favorite.....

AnduinTryggva

TybaltKaine wrote: »

There's a difference between a Dragonborn from D&D and an Argonian. Dragonborn are literally humanoid dragon hybrids created by dragons to serve them. They look like dragons because that is what they are.

Argonians were specifically created by the Hist to live in their environment, notably swampy terrain, and are as a result more amphibious in nature. Argonians are closer to frogs and salamanders than to lizards.

EDIT: D&D also has Lizardfolk, which are completely unrelated to Dragonborn and are the traditional "lizard people" that you see in many older fantasy games and fantasy stories in general.

Thanks for the explanation of the origin. However, it does not change the fact that Larian managed to get a much better looking model (both universes are totally different so the different origins as invented by the two studies have no play in how both "lizzard-like" models look like).

As for images: I am not sure if it is allowed posting images from a different game here.
But probably I can post a link: https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/dragonborn

And what is even better: You have some options with respect to the tail appearance. You could even chose to have no tail at all although I would not mind if we continue to have an obligatory tail in ESO.

ArchMikem

Yeah, it's more detailed, but this is simply an engine difference, not just design choice. Besides Argonians aren't "Dragon Folk", they're more "Lizard Folk".

TX12001rwb17_ESO

They took "Dragonborn" a bit too literal, the TES version of a Dragonborn is far superior., anyone else think the D&D version is just embarrassing?

AnduinTryggva

I disagree here. Of course it is more detailed but that is not what makes the 3d model look simply better.

The argonian heads have to much bulges and embossements that simply look pretty much out of place.

Also the mouth shape is simply much better and believable in BG3.

Overall my grudge against argonian is really the 3D model, not the skin or texture.

TaSheen

Ew. Even worse than TES/ESO argonians.

wilykcat

ArchMikem wrote: »

Yeah, it's more detailed, but this is simply an engine difference, not just design choice. Besides Argonians aren't "Dragon Folk", they're more "Lizard Folk".

Thank you. I now see how eso lizards and bg3 lizards are different. The bg3 one has better 3d looking textures. The eso ones have better colors-- and I say they both look great.

TybaltKaine

The origin of the race, and the ideas that inspired its creation, play directly into the design of the race.

Argonians look "bumpy" because frogs and salamanders are "bumpy" for lack of a better term. Those bulges are directly informed by the real-world creatures that they are inspired by.

You can make a creature based on a Dragon/Humanoid hybrid look more humanoid because they are supposed to. They are literally a humanoid dragon, and as such they will look closer to a human. This is why the mouth is "more believable" and why they aren't as "bumpy". The design isn't being informed by frogs, toads and salamanders.

Understanding the differences in the creation and inspiration for a race helps to understand and inform the design choices made when they are visualized in a 3D medium.

Edit for spelling and punctuation errors.

Soarora

Eso argonians do look pretty bad but I think it’s far too late to change them. I model what an argonian should look like off of Skyrim. The eso cinematics do a decent job at argonians as well.

menedhyn

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

I like ESO argonians

Same. All of them, in fact. From every Elder Scrolls game.

Just redressing the balance…

alternatelder

It's a different universe, why should they look the same?

Thorntongue

This kind of sounds like "I like the way (insert car maker 1 here) makes their cars look, maybe (insert car maker 2 here) should take a look and make their car look the same as car maker 1. I guess looking different is bad, very bad...

CameraBeardThePirate

TybaltKaine wrote: »

There's a difference between a Dragonborn from D&D and an Argonian. Dragonborn are literally humanoid dragon hybrids created by dragons to serve them. They look like dragons because that is what they are.

Argonians were specifically created by the Hist to live in their environment, notably swampy terrain, and are as a result more amphibious in nature. Argonians are closer to frogs and salamanders than to lizards.

EDIT: D&D also has Lizardfolk, which are completely unrelated to Dragonborn and are the traditional "lizard people" that you see in many older fantasy games and fantasy stories in general.

Lizardfolk are also more similar to Argonians than Dragonborn are to Argonians - in DnD Lizardfolk lack empathy that other mortal races have (they're more primal/animalistic/selfish inherently). Elder Scrolls Argonians aren't exactly the same, but share a similar difference to the rest of the mortal races in their outlook on life and the Daedra/Divines/etc.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

wilykcat wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Yeah, it's more detailed, but this is simply an engine difference, not just design choice. Besides Argonians aren't "Dragon Folk", they're more "Lizard Folk".

The eso ones have better colors-- and I say they both look great.

The dragonborn in BG3 can have fantastic colours, it varies what type of dragon they are based on. Dragons in DnD comes in different types, like gold, blue, brass, black, white, green and more. The one there is a white one.


I wouldn't want argonians to look like them, though. Because they are different things from different settings.I like our argonians, although their face/head animation needs works, and their shape is a bit weird. Especially female argonians.

SeaGtGruff

TybaltKaine wrote: »

EDIT: D&D also has Lizardfolk, which are completely unrelated to Dragonborn and are the traditional "lizard people" that you see in many older fantasy games and fantasy stories in general.

TES:Arena also has "Lizard Men" which (to me, anyway) look a lot more like Argonians from later TES games than TES:Arena Argonians do-- although in the lore they're different species. TES:Arena Lizard Men remind me of ESO Argonian Behemoths-- or vice versa, really-- except they aren't as big.

RaikaNA

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I've purchased BG3 and play a dragonborn. I think this is how Argonians should look like in ESO.

They did really an outstanding work with the head and body model.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the beast design in this game. For the khajiit.. I feel like they're just humans inside of a costume rp'ing as a furry... same with the Argonians... feels like they're too plain.

RaikaNA

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

They took "Dragonborn" a bit too literal, the TES version of a Dragonborn is far superior., anyone else think the D&D version is just embarrassing?

The problem with TES version of a dragonborn is that it's full of Mary Sues. By the time I'm almost done playing Skyrim in terms of completing questlines... as a dragonborn I become so bored playing with my character because It feels like I'm in godmode... Nobody can stop me and I'm just unkillable... even in maximum difficulties.

spartaxoxo

ArchMikem wrote: »

Yeah, it's more detailed, but this is simply an engine difference, not just design choice. Besides Argonians aren't "Dragon Folk", they're more "Lizard Folk".

Thank you for the link. I actually dislike this look and prefer the "bumpy" look of TESO argonians. The mouth especially looks weird to me in this image.

ArchMikem

Soarora wrote: »

Eso argonians do look pretty bad but I think it’s far too late to change them. I model what an argonian should look like off of Skyrim. The eso cinematics do a decent job at argonians as well.

Blur does a great job at literally everything they make a cinematic for.

Amottica

Each artist should create their own work and not copy what others have done. They should always do their own work.

One does not suggest Jackson Pollock should have created work more like Piet Mondrain as they each did their own work and were great.

I also agree with what has already been said, that Argonians are not dragon folk. As such the inspiration would suggest a different appearance.

Luke_Flamesword

ESO is 10 years older game - I like argonians design more, they just have lower resolution textures and lightining is not good as is in BG3 - so they look less impressive. It's just not fair to compare games from 2023 and 2014..

SerafinaWaterstar

I like how Argonians look in the game.

Not sure the reason for this thread. A newer game has created a vaguely similar ‘race’ and the op prefers that look.
Well, ok. That’s nice.
Thank you for sharing 🙂

Wolfshade

spartaxoxo wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

Yeah, it's more detailed, but this is simply an engine difference, not just design choice. Besides Argonians aren't "Dragon Folk", they're more "Lizard Folk".

...The mouth especially looks weird to me in this image.

Especially the mouth looks for me more lizard-like then dragon-like. Overall i think, they are looking pretty cool as "argonians".

MasterSpatula

I know that when I want to make a truly fair comparison, I hold the graphics and design of a nine-year-old game up against a two-day-old game.

AnduinTryggva

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

ESO is 10 years older game - I like argonians design more, they just have lower resolution textures and lightining is not good as is in BG3 - so they look less impressive. It's just not fair to compare games from 2023 and 2014..

As I said twice in this thread it is not about texture and not even about polycount.

It is the 3D model that is much more believable. And no I don't mean the scales which are part of the texture.

Argonian 3D model looks like that older person having to use a tooth prothesis but forgot to put it in.
The transition from the skull to the neck on the back side of the Argonian model is bad.

The jaw bone should be more V-shape when looking at it from the top and not what we have currently where the bone is sort of bent inward before bending outward to the corner of the jaw. You have to put the jaw slider to the extreme position to mitigate a bit this but it is not enough.

AnduinTryggva

BTW if you look at the link I've posted you see that the skull is in no way "human". The picture that was directly posted here conceals it due to the front perspective.

AnduinTryggva

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I know that when I want to make a truly fair comparison, I hold the graphics and design of a nine-year-old game up against a two-day-old game.

I've disliked the 3d model for Argonians long long before BG3 existed. [snip]

[edited for flaming]