Surprise Attack

DrNukenstein

The guaranteed crit is a great idea, the frequency of 4 seconds is fine. The problem is it doesn't POP. The guaranteed crit by itself does not feel that impactful on a class with naturally high crit chance.

So I'd lay out a few alternative ideas to make Surprise attack competitive mostly considered around the very fun flanking identity that the skill has.

-a 10% unique damage buff to the skill itself while flanking. Plays into the idea that surprise attack is about the skill itself, while concealed is about the whole kit

-A sizable crit damage bonus for the guaranteed crit. Around 15%. Make it stand out, show the cooldown on the skill/buff bar, maybe add a sound effect.

-Instead of a crit, make the skill empowered when used on a target you're flanking every few seconds. Something like a 40% bonus, not as strong as whip but kind of in the ball park

-Instead of a crit, make it fire an extra light attack every few seconds. Pretty much same idea as above but more surprising. Inspired by the icon for Surprise Attack looking like an LA-Weave in portrait form.

Jazraena

Or just give it the same Major Berserk.

DrNukenstein

If you give it major berserk, everyone will just pick surprise attack over concealed weapon again.

JerBearESO

Just a thought, what if it grants major force just on the guaranteed crit itself. Or something like that

DrNukenstein

JerBearESO wrote: »

Just a thought, what if it grants major force just on the guaranteed crit itself. Or something like that

If it's just on the crit then I don't see a difference with giving the guaranteed crit simple bonus crit damage.

If they made it give you M force for several seconds it would lead to some weird decision making. Do you get the M force first or apply the incap debuff first?

Jazraena

Or just give it the same Major Berserk.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

If you give it major berserk, everyone will just pick surprise attack over concealed weapon again.

I don't see why. I'd use the one using the resource I need.

DrNukenstein

Jazraena wrote: »

I don't see why. I'd use the one using the resource I need.

Yeah, but you could also use the morph that gives you Mbers, a guaranteed crit (which is very nice for PK purposes), and mbreach over the one that only gives Mbers and mexp. It's very easy to sustain Surprise attack on a full mag build using DW in medium armor, considerably easier than sustaining concealed weapon on that same build.

Jazraena

I never said to keep the guaranteed crit; not that it matters much on a high crit class.

DrNukenstein

The crit does matter (in pvp), but by itself it's not enough to compete with the benefits of concealed weapon in all content.

Right now the solution was to increase the frequency of the crit, I think increasing the impact of it is what the people want.

Panderbander

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

I don't see why. I'd use the one using the resource I need.

Yeah, but you could also use the morph that gives you Mbers, a guaranteed crit (which is very nice for PK purposes), and mbreach over the one that only gives Mbers and mexp.

This was painful to read lmao. I love it.

Vaqual

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Yeah, but you could also use the morph that gives you Mbers, a guaranteed crit (which is very nice for PK purposes), and mbreach over the one that only gives Mbers and mexp. It's very easy to sustain Surprise attack on a full mag build using DW in medium armor, considerably easier than sustaining concealed weapon on that same build.

DrNukenstein

I should patent this short hand for buffs. Forum posters will save a cumulative 3 hours of their life per year.

Dojohoda

Give some cool unnamed buff. Something that makes up for medium armor shortcomings such as a unique breach or penetration.

Kaysha

I really like the guaranteed crit and I think that a cooldown of 3s is probably the sweet spot. Well done ZOS!

acastanza_ESO

A thousand times NO to every proposed buff here. Once again, Nightblade does not need buffs. It needed a significant nerf. The loss of the unique 10% damage buff in favor of the named buff it should have been all along is barely even getting started, and you come in an propose a whole bunch of other completey unnecessary buffs and especially not any unnamed ones. Come on.

birdik

Kaysha wrote: »

I really like the guaranteed crit and I think that a cooldown of 3s is probably the sweet spot. Well done ZOS!

Nothing will changes

birdik

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

A thousand times NO to every proposed buff here. Once again, Nightblade does not need buffs. It needed a significant nerf. The loss of the unique 10% damage buff in favor of the named buff it should have been all along is barely even getting started, and you come in an propose a whole bunch of other completey unnecessary buffs and especially not any unnamed ones. Come on.

Some ppl play pve

SaffronCitrusflower

Yeah, because NB's aren't already super OP in PvP and have one of the most complete tool boxes in the game, not even with the new upcoming buffs with U39. Sheesh.

warm_blanket

CW is still overloaded and deserves to be looked at again.

As for SA the increase of guaranteed crit frequency on PTS won't have much effect for SA on pvp.

Maybe in pve it can result in a small dps gain, but builds in general have at least 33% crit rate, so 1/3 of the time (usually much more) the guaranteed crit is totally wasted, as you would have crit anyway.

All this assumes you're "flanking" in the first place. Other players won't easily allow you to parse their backs.

If SA is fully intended to be the backstab skill, then from the list posted by OP,

DrNukenstein wrote: »

-A sizable crit damage bonus for the guaranteed crit. Around 15%. Make it stand out, show the cooldown on the skill/buff bar, maybe add a sound effect.

the above seems the most fair, for a few reasons

• It buffs Cdmg - it's not berserk or even worse an unnamed % damage buff. A % increase on the sum total of all other modifiers (including Cdmg) for every damage ability you happen to be using is just too much. Buffing Cdmg alone is a much safer alternative.
  
• Cdmg is capped, so the damage potential is limited by a hard ceiling. Even when combined with other sources of Cdmg you can only boost the numbers so far.
  
• Cdmg is directly negated by another stat players have access to, Crit resist.

VaxtinTheWolf

Several other games use increased damage modifiers when attacking an enemies' blind spot. While 'just do more damage' might sound simple and boring, it still fits the theme of assassin themed tactics to attack an opponent from behind.

So yeah, let the skill hit harder on the built in proc with an additional bonus or increased critical damage.

warm_blanket

warm_blanket wrote: »

builds in general have at least 33% crit rate, so 1/3 of the time (usually much more) the guaranteed crit is totally wasted, as you would have crit anyway.

To add to this, a buff to Cdmg on the guaranteed crit would solve the above problem, as even though the guaranteed crit itself will occasionally be redundant the Cdmg buff on that cast still applies.

Writing this out just makes me laugh at how cracked CW is again. Even with such a 15% Cdmg buff on SA it is completely outclassed by what CW offers. On a crit CW still hits nearly as hard. Hilarious.

Turtle_Bot

Whatever buff the devs decide to give NB needs to come with the clause "only against monsters". So sick of the devs just plastering any and all buffs onto the NB class without any semblance of balance that goes towards helping the class where it actually needs help (PvE) and only ever over buffing it where it doesn't need any help at all (PvP).

Now, with that caveat out of the way, I would be all for the following change as long as its tied to the monsters only condition.

DrNukenstein wrote: »

-A sizable crit damage bonus for the guaranteed crit. Around 15%. Make it stand out, show the cooldown on the skill/buff bar, maybe add a sound effect.

katorga

Both Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon need significant nerfs

Both are heavily overloaded compared to other classes' spammables.

Major Berserk (or unnamed 10% damage buff) should not be on a spammable, period. Including Wrecking Blow.

kyatos_binarini

really? nightblades already have most powerful spammable in the game (not to mention one of the most powerful burst heals in the game) and still it's not enough for you?

Zastrix

kyatos_binarini wrote: »

really? nightblades already have most powerful spammable in the game (not to mention one of the most powerful burst heals in the game) and still it's not enough for you?

Most powerful spammable? Base damage wise vampire spammable does the same (comparing to SA).

Jierdanit

Zastrix wrote: »

kyatos_binarini wrote: »

really? nightblades already have most powerful spammable in the game (not to mention one of the most powerful burst heals in the game) and still it's not enough for you?

Most powerful spammable? Base damage wise vampire spammable does the same (comparing to SA).

And Concealed has Off Balance, 10% damage buff and Minor Expedition on top of that.
NB in PvE might not be a great DPS, but that doesn't change the fact that there is not a single spammable better than concealed in the game.

DrNukenstein

That is correct. Concealed weapon is the best spammy in the game. That's why we are contemplating ideas to make surprise attack competitive. The benefit is some assassins wills that hit you will hit for ~10% less and the user won't be able to run away at street legal vehicle speeds.

merpins

Make it ranged then.

LittlePinkDot

Jazraena wrote: »

Or just give it the same Major Berserk.

How about minor brittle?

kyatos_binarini

Jierdanit wrote: »

And Concealed has Off Balance, 10% damage buff and Minor Expedition on top of that.
NB in PvE might not be a great DPS, but that doesn't change the fact that there is not a single spammable better than concealed in the game.

and that's without class passives that can be proced with CW: +3%hp from dark vigor and passive major resolve from shadow barrier (okay this one can be proced from any other shadow skill)

Tommy_The_Gun

Main problem Veiled Strike & morphs (not that it is bad skill to begin with - it is one of the best single target spamable anyway) is that as far as I aware the whole "attacking from the flank" is bugged as it is taking into account position of the enemy on the map (if they are facing north or not) instead of your position vs their position (if you are facing them or you are on their flank).

Because you may stand right behind them and it won't trigger the "off-balance" effect. And sometimes you may stand face-to-face and constantly proc "off-balance"...