Class imbalance

ZDunlain

Hi guys, I was wondering why some classes are worst than others so I decided to count the number of unique buffs provided by the class and this is the result:

-Arcanist(13):
Major protection, Minor Heroism, Minor Courage, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Expedition, Minor Maim, Minor Lifesteal, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Minor Protection, Minor Vulnerability

-Dragonknight(15):
Major Defile, Major Breach, Major Expedition, Major Berserk, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Resolve, Minor Maim, Major Fortitude, Major Endurance, Minor Vitality, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Mending, Minor Brutality

-Necromancer(8):
Major Resolve, Major Protection, Minor Protection, Minor Vulnerability, Minor Maim, Major Vulnerability, Major Defile, Major Breach

-Nightblade(22):
Major Defile, Minor Vulnerability, Minor Berserk, Major Evasion, Minor Resolve, Major Breach, Minor Savagery, Major Protection, Minor Expedition, Minor Protection, Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, Minor Intellect, Major Cowardice, Minor Maim, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Magickasteal, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Minor Cowardice, Minor Courage

-Sorcerer(13):
Major Berserk, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Protection, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Berserk, Minor Force, Minor Resolve, Major Expedition, Minor Expedition, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery

-Templar(16):
Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Maim, Major Savagery, Major Prophecy, Major Defile, Minor Breach, Minor Sorcery, Minor Expedition, Minor Endurance, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Major Resolve, Minor Mending

-Warden(22):
Major Breach, Minor Breach, Minor Bulnerability, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Expedition, Minor Evasion, Minor Berserk, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Defile, Minor Cowardice, Minor Lifesteal, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Mending, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Protection, Major Heroism, Major Maim, Minor Toughness


As you can see, the classes with the biggest number of unique buffs are the ones that are better.

Also I didnt really count the ease to have access to them, because for example templar access to them is horrendous and more than a half of them is in useless abilities so if templars have 16, around 8 are actually useful, the same applies with othher classes.

At the same time we have Arcanist with 13 but with really easy access to them so he can put most of them in the two bars unlike nightblade that has a ton but but distributed in many skills. With easy access I meant the amount of uinique buffs per skill like DK or Arcanist has and in the opposite NB and Templars have them distributed really really bad.

As you can see, Necromancers, Templars, Sorcerers are really useless in PvP due to the low amount of usefull and easy access unique buffs.

Meanwhile in PvE nightblades suffer more due to the distributions of those buffs.

If you say all classes are fine, you are wrong. They are fine for housing or casual questing but not for endgame content like top% trial groups or ballgroups in PvP.

In my opinion they must buff necro, sorc and templar. They deserve some love.

Meanwhile dragonknights and wardens are stupidly broken (Arcanist right now is super strong in support roles and also in damage (burst) but it is normal because it is recently added, lets see in next patchs)

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the PvP Combat & Skills section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

gariondavey

Reminds me of the excel chart someone made on this topic before, maybe @MashmalloMan was the one...?

ZDunlain

gariondavey wrote: »

Reminds me of the excel chart someone made on this topic before, maybe @MashmalloMan was the one...?

This game is in my opinion really easy to balance but first the devs needs to play high level andunderstand fully the classes like top players know.

And with balance I dont pretend to say "all classes the same" nah, just pros and cons but specialized in their own way no tasteless classes like templars or necros.

LittlePinkDot

ZDunlain wrote: »

Hi guys, I was wondering why some classes are worst than others so I decided to count the number of unique buffs provided by the class and this is the result:

-Arcanist(13):
Major protection, Minor Heroism, Minor Courage, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Expedition, Minor Maim, Minor Lifesteal, Major Resolve, Minor Resolve, Minor Protection, Minor Vulnerability

-Dragonknight(15):
Major Defile, Major Breach, Major Expedition, Major Berserk, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Resolve, Minor Maim, Major Fortitude, Major Endurance, Minor Vitality, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Mending, Minor Brutality

-Necromancer(8):
Major Resolve, Major Protection, Minor Protection, Minor Vulnerability, Minor Maim, Major Vulnerability, Major Defile, Major Breach

-Nightblade(22):
Major Defile, Minor Vulnerability, Minor Berserk, Major Evasion, Minor Resolve, Major Breach, Minor Savagery, Major Protection, Minor Expedition, Minor Protection, Major Expedition, Minor Endurance, Minor Intellect, Major Cowardice, Minor Maim, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Magickasteal, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Minor Cowardice, Minor Courage

-Sorcerer(13):
Major Berserk, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Protection, Minor Resolve, Major Vitality, Minor Berserk, Minor Force, Minor Resolve, Major Expedition, Minor Expedition, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery

-Templar(16):
Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Maim, Major Savagery, Major Prophecy, Major Defile, Minor Breach, Minor Sorcery, Minor Expedition, Minor Endurance, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Major Resolve, Minor Mending

-Warden(22):
Major Breach, Minor Breach, Minor Bulnerability, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Expedition, Minor Evasion, Minor Berserk, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Major Defile, Minor Cowardice, Minor Lifesteal, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Major Mending, Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Protection, Major Heroism, Major Maim, Minor Toughness


As you can see, the classes with the biggest number of unique buffs are the ones that are better.

Also I didnt really count the ease to have access to them, because for example templar access to them is horrendous and more than a half of them is in useless abilities so if templars have 16, around 8 are actually useful, the same applies with othher classes.

At the same time we have Arcanist with 13 but with really easy access to them so he can put most of them in the two bars unlike nightblade that has a ton but but distributed in many skills. With easy access I meant the amount of uinique buffs per skill like DK or Arcanist has and in the opposite NB and Templars have them distributed really really bad.

As you can see, Necromancers, Templars, Sorcerers are really useless in PvP due to the low amount of usefull and easy access unique buffs.

Meanwhile in PvE nightblades suffer more due to the distributions of those buffs.

If you say all classes are fine, you are wrong. They are fine for housing or casual questing but not for endgame content like top% trial groups or ballgroups in PvP.

In my opinion they must buff necro, sorc and templar. They deserve some love.

Meanwhile dragonknights and wardens are stupidly broken (Arcanist right now is super strong in support roles and also in damage (burst) but it is normal because it is recently added, lets see in next patchs)

I don't think Warden is broken when you consider the fact they have no decent class spammable and are the lowest damage class in PVE.

MashmalloMan

gariondavey wrote: »

Reminds me of the excel chart someone made on this topic before, maybe @MashmalloMan was the one...?

Yeah I made one with a chart, I added my own power values with major = 2 and minor = 1 I think. It's not up to date, Sorc was dead last at the time with ease of access to named buffs/debuffs which imo severely points towards their issues in pve/pvp content.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/618634/class-access-to-named-buffs-debuffs#latest



The dps ceiling for pve is there. We can compete, but we don't offer much for groups and in solo pve, we need a crap ton of universal skills and sets for easy buffs/debuffs.

For pvp, the base skills are strong, but easily avoidable. Since we lack bar space with pets, it makes it especially difficult to slot universal skills for things like Major Savagery, Minor Protection, Major Breach, etc while still being able to actually kill anyone. It takes like 3-5 damage skills, all of which have no buffs/debuffs.

The change to Dark Exchange was a step in the right direction. If they gave Haunting Curse Major Savagery and Daedric Prey Empower, I feel like we'd be in a better place... Plus another suggestion with a new passive like.. +% damage done for no pets alive and +x pen for each pet you have alive... boosting non pet sorc, while still offering pet Sorc a strong, but capped stat.

TybaltKaine

I think simply counting the buffs is a simplistic approach if you aren't taking the time to differentiate between the sources. Different morphs give different things, and you aren't going to be able to get all of them at the same time.

You also need to account for bar space. You can only slot 10 abilities. There needs to be some sort of efficiency rating involved in this discussion.

How many buffs can you get slotting 10 purely class abilities? How many from 5? How do they synergize (I'm not referring to the gameplay synergy mechanic) with each other? What combinations work for which playstyle?

There is a lot more data to be parsed here before we can say that X class is better than X.

Wardens are not good at DPS right now and that's a fact. 22 buffs are meaningless if the class underperforms dramatically in one of the core three roles.

Nightblades stink at tanking and dealing group damage. You see what I mean?

We also need to account for passive buffs vs active buffs. What is being sourced for free? What requires a heavy investment into a skill tree? Wardens have a bunch of "with ability slotted from x" requirements on their passives. Nightblade tanks need to ramp up Shadow skills on bar to get the best synergistic buffs, thanks in large part to passives.

This is a good start point, but not the end of discussion.

ZDunlain

MashmalloMan wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Reminds me of the excel chart someone made on this topic before, maybe @MashmalloMan was the one...?

Yeah I made one with a chart, I added my own power values with major = 2 and minor = 1 I think. It's not up to date, Sorc was dead last at the time with ease of access to named buffs/debuffs which imo severely points towards their issues in pve/pvp content.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/618634/class-access-to-named-buffs-debuffs#latest



The dps ceiling for pve is there. We can compete, but we don't offer much for groups and in solo pve, we need a crap ton of universal skills and sets for easy buffs/debuffs.

For pvp, the base skills are strong, but easily avoidable. Since we lack bar space with pets, it makes it especially difficult to slot universal skills for things like Major Savagery, Minor Protection, Major Breach, etc while still being able to actually kill anyone. It takes like 3-5 damage skills, all of which have no buffs/debuffs.

The change to Dark Exchange was a step in the right direction. If they gave Haunting Curse Major Savagery and Daedric Prey Empower, I feel like we'd be in a better place... Plus another suggestion with a new passive like.. +% damage done for no pets alive and +x pen for each pet you have alive... boosting non pet sorc, while still offering pet Sorc a strong, but capped stat.

Awesome chart!

MashmalloMan

TybaltKaine wrote: »

I think simply counting the buffs is a simplistic approach if you aren't taking the time to differentiate between the sources. Different morphs give different things, and you aren't going to be able to get all of them at the same time.

You also need to account for bar space. You can only slot 10 abilities. There needs to be some sort of efficiency rating involved in this discussion.

How many buffs can you get slotting 10 purely class abilities? How many from 5? How do they synergize (I'm not referring to the gameplay synergy mechanic) with each other? What combinations work for which playstyle?

There is a lot more data to be parsed here before we can say that X class is better than X.

Wardens are not good at DPS right now and that's a fact. 22 buffs are meaningless if the class underperforms dramatically in one of the core three roles.

Nightblades stink at tanking and dealing group damage. You see what I mean?

We also need to account for passive buffs vs active buffs. What is being sourced for free? What requires a heavy investment into a skill tree? Wardens have a bunch of "with ability slotted from x" requirements on their passives. Nightblade tanks need to ramp up Shadow skills on bar to get the best synergistic buffs, thanks in large part to passives.

This is a good start point, but not the end of discussion.

Yeah, it was brought up in my same post with U35 and that graph I made, completely agree. It's not the entire picture and I wouldn't begin to say X class is OP because they have X amount of skills, but it provides valuable insight. There is a lot of subjectivity in delving into what you're suggesting. It only becomes apparent when you start playing with those classes how easy or hard it is to stack the buffs. Objectively speaking, we can at least count what is or isn't available to get a starting point.

I think it's obvious there are classes that are MEANT to have more named buff/debuff access.. like Wardens. From their inception they felt like a jack of all trades, master of none, one man army's so to speak. Every major basic skill you slot has a named bonus attached to it in the Warden's kit. It makes them a really great solo class, but as always, named buffs/debuffs have ceilings because in group content, the value of those become null when everyone is standardized.

Whats funny is that is how it USED to be, if you look at my chart from U35. NB is actually the one with the most named buffs/debuffs and I bet they're a little higher now after the 4 updates since I made that. Thats a little odd to me personally, it only stands out when you start doing the math. When you actually play a NB you can really feel how flexible they are with their bar space.

This happens when you over focus on the trial dummy for balance changes too.. Sorc and Necro may be able to reach similar DPS ceilings as other classes, but they have way less utility when they're brought into solo environments where someone else isn't picking up the slack with buffs. Necro at the very least has what I would consider more rare named effects for having so little.

It's a huge reason why before the trial dummy, DPS parses had very little credit. I remember on Sorc I would struggle to get 35-40k on the 6 mil dummy, but my NB/DK could reach 50-60k easily because they have the major DPS building blocks built in to their core skills.

Dojohoda

Absolutely, being aware of your class buffs is an important part of your character building. However, when comparing classes, keep in mind that not all buffs can usually be included on the character build. One would also need to investigate how the buff is obtained such as, is it a passive, or a skill, or a particular morph of a skill. Let's have more details on the mechanics before we set the building on fire.

katorga

The flaw in the argument and why ZOS won't listen is that DK with 15 is the strongest class.

The real thing to look at are how many GCD and bar slots must be wasted maintaining essential buffs. That is where the benefit is for pvp.

Melzo

It's funny to me to see how you point out that buffs affect the strength of the class. Each skill can give you damage, some kind of boost or buff. You cannot get a lot of damage and a bunch of buffs in one skill. The sorcerer's hurricane is an example of what not to do. But there is an exception for the class because of the gameplay as a whole, but in fact the reasoning that the sorcerer is weak because of the buffs is nonsense. Two years ago it was the strongest class, but at the same time, most players did not even reduce the enemy's armor using the staff of destruction. What do I mean.


Spell damage can be increased by 10% with medium armor, 20% with a buff, 8-14% with class skills and fighters guild, and 10% with a class buff of a dk or templar.

As a result, buffing a sorcerer won't make sorcerer's mana the dominant specialization for the class. In order to bring the sorcerer closer to the level of strength of the dk or nb, the sorcerer needs to be given a lot of serious buffs, but at the same time the stam-sorcerer will receive the most buff and will be ahead of both the dk and nb, and any other class. Does not wake up any balance if you buff the sorcerer, if you do not affect the main stats.

jhall03

ZOS_Icy wrote: »

Greetings,

This thread has been moved to the PvP Combat & Skills section, as it is better suited there.

Thank you for your understanding.

Its actually a PVE discussion too

SandandStars

I think we can safely deduce that PvP class balance is not the game designer’s plan.

At least not if you’re thinking “class balance” should mean that all classes can compete equally with others.