Magicka Sorcerer

ItsNotLiving

Zenimax please I just want to play magsorc without feeling like I have to hit a perfect timed combo 6 times to kill someone while they sit in an ash cloud and type laughing whispers at me.

BalticBlues

Laughing? Don't you know yet?
If you are a MagSorc or a MagCro and you meet a DK, you are supposed to run away.

There is NO WAY you can hurt a good DK with a MagSorc or MagCro.
Your tiny damage tickles them, so this is why they are laughing.

katorga

Saying a class cannot beat a DK is not really a valid comparison. They are on a entirely different level than the other classes.

Sorc is fine for the other 25% of cyrodill that doesn't play DK.

Tyrant_Tim

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

Zenimax please I just want to play magsorc without feeling like I have to hit a perfect timed combo 6 times to kill someone while they sit in an ash cloud and type laughing whispers at me.

https://youtu.be/u36oVtaPB9o
If you run this build while keeping distance with Streak it will be too much pressure for any melee class in the game to withstand. That new Monster Set paired with the Inferno change is what we’ve been waiting for.

ZhuJiuyin

But you just provided some data, and there is no actual combat data to support it.
And keeping your distance isn't easy when speed caps are easily accessible to all.

Tyrant_Tim

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

But you just provided some data, and there is no actual combat data to support it.
And keeping your distance isn't easy when speed caps are easily accessible to all.

You could have just asked for clips of gameplay instead of doing so subliminally.

https://youtu.be/j5BQ2L9xTyk
https://youtu.be/2dUThJaQ4nA
https://youtu.be/i5WXAWA4X4E

Turtle_Bot

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

But you just provided some data, and there is no actual combat data to support it.
And keeping your distance isn't easy when speed caps are easily accessible to all.

You could have just asked for clips of gameplay instead of doing so subliminally.

https://youtu.be/j5BQ2L9xTyk
https://youtu.be/2dUThJaQ4nA
https://youtu.be/i5WXAWA4X4E

I finally got a chance to sit down and test the changes to inferno staff properly myself yesterday.

It is definitely stronger than my first impressions. It will be a strong build, but it doesn't really fix sorcs issues. Sorc will be using the same amount or even fewer class abilities with it and magsorc will simply be "proc bowsorc but with blue main resource" instead of being it's own thing.

My main issue with it, which has been one of my main sticking points with the stamsorc builds over the past year that have been performing well (masters DW/vate destro/savage werewolf/way of fire/etc), is that it is another completely generic proc build that can be ran on any class that's going to result in another savage werewolf U35 situation where the proc build carries the class and masks the issues with it and gets the class, instead of the build, heavily nerfed in the following patch.
Which just like it did in U35, results in a complete overnerf of the class in the early weeks of the PTS followed by another misguided panic buff to pets and daedric prey because the overnerf from the early PTS weeks deleted the class entirely from all content just like it did in U35 PTS cycle.

I just wish they would just sit down and fix sorcerer as a class once and for all instead of constantly trying random changes to 1 or 2 abilities followed by panic overnerfs resulting from over performing proc builds followed by panic overbuffs to pets/prey that only serve to force it even further into pets and procs.
Give it a complete overhaul/update/rework like they did with NB, DK and warden allowing it to focus on its class abilities and themes, but with better balancing so its not completely overtuned like 2 of those 3 classes are.

Tyrant_Tim

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

But you just provided some data, and there is no actual combat data to support it.
And keeping your distance isn't easy when speed caps are easily accessible to all.

You could have just asked for clips of gameplay instead of doing so subliminally.

https://youtu.be/j5BQ2L9xTyk
https://youtu.be/2dUThJaQ4nA
https://youtu.be/i5WXAWA4X4E

I finally got a chance to sit down and test the changes to inferno staff properly myself yesterday.

It is definitely stronger than my first impressions. It will be a strong build, but it doesn't really fix sorcs issues. Sorc will be using the same amount or even fewer class abilities with it and magsorc will simply be "proc bowsorc but with blue main resource" instead of being it's own thing.

My main issue with it, which has been one of my main sticking points with the stamsorc builds over the past year that have been performing well (masters DW/vate destro/savage werewolf/way of fire/etc), is that it is another completely generic proc build that can be ran on any class that's going to result in another savage werewolf U35 situation where the proc build carries the class and masks the issues with it and gets the class, instead of the build, heavily nerfed in the following patch.
Which just like it did in U35, results in a complete overnerf of the class in the early weeks of the PTS followed by another misguided panic buff to pets and daedric prey because the overnerf from the early PTS weeks deleted the class entirely from all content just like it did in U35 PTS cycle.

I just wish they would just sit down and fix sorcerer as a class once and for all instead of constantly trying random changes to 1 or 2 abilities followed by panic overnerfs resulting from over performing proc builds followed by panic overbuffs to pets/prey that only serve to force it even further into pets and procs.
Give it a complete overhaul/update/rework like they did with NB, DK and warden allowing it to focus on its class abilities and themes, but with better balancing so its not completely overtuned like 2 of those 3 classes are.

Agreed, what it really comes down to in my opinion is the bar space problem, combined with the lack of Major and Minor Buffs that the class has.

You would think that the class that provides Minor Prophecy to the group would also have Major Prophecy somewhere tied to an ability in it’s kit.

Why does an ability that heals you on critical strikes give Major Sorcery instead of Prophecy?

They could take a look at Rune Prison and rework that into a heal or any of the other abilities not seeing any use in either PvE or PvP.

Like let’s be real here, when was the last time you’ve seen a Sorcerer use Daedric Minefield? That ability was a staple on Sorcerer year 1 and 2. Or how about the Clanfear? You just don’t see that pet anywhere other than a Sorc Tank and even then it’s unreliable.

IncultaWolf

What's magsorc? Just use masters duel wield/vateshran ice staff and pick the best morphs

Turtle_Bot

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Agreed, what it really comes down to in my opinion is the bar space problem, combined with the lack of Major and Minor Buffs that the class has.

You would think that the class that provides Minor Prophecy to the group would also have Major Prophecy somewhere tied to an ability in it’s kit.

Why does an ability that heals you on critical strikes give Major Sorcery instead of Prophecy?

They could take a look at Rune Prison and rework that into a heal or any of the other abilities not seeing any use in either PvE or PvP.

Like let’s be real here, when was the last time you’ve seen a Sorcerer use Daedric Minefield? That ability was a staple on Sorcerer year 1 and 2. Or how about the Clanfear? You just don’t see that pet anywhere other than a Sorc Tank and even then it’s unreliable.

Yeah, bar space has been such a massive pain point for sorcerer ever since the removal of the overload 3rd bar (which ZOS has still never compensated sorcs for even to this day and tbh I don't think they even realise what that change did to ruin sorcerer). Not only that, but sorcs main form of defense (shields) has been constantly nerfed into the ground, not just by numbers but via mechanical changes to its functionality as well.

I wonder what NBs would say if they suddenly had their bar space reduced by 1/3. Only 3 active abilities and 1 ultimate per bar.
No class has had those kinds of nerfs done to them except sorcerer, hence why I have no sympathy for NBs who cry about the Elswyr patch. They got off insanely easy compared to the nerfs sorcerer has constantly received over the years and will continue to receive until ZOS decides to actually fix the class properly.

At this point crit surge should just give both buffs or just simply proc off dealing any damage, especially when you look at NB getting access to pretty much every single buff/debuff (both major and minor) in the game in their class kit and plenty of unique buffs/mechanics on top of that alongside strictly better versions of most of sorcs abilities and passives to boot. There's simply no reason the ability should not get that buff.

Yeah, rune prison needs a complete rework, as does encase, both skills are completely unplayable for both PvE and PvP. Encase especially, since it's not only completely useless in PvP thanks to all the free snare/immobilization immunity being given out, but it also actively hinders the tanks ability to pull and group up mobs in PvE by granting those mobs/adds CC immunity.

I actually proposed a huge rework to sorcerers back in U36 (when they were really bottom of the barrel) including specifically for rune cage and encase (making rune cage into a DoT/HoT ability where defensive rune was a self HoT that stuns the next target that attacks you after a 2 seconds delay and rune prison was a single target sticky DoT that attempts to stun the target after a 2 second delay. Alongside this was a complete tidy up and update to sorcs passives and changing damage types of frags/curse to shock damage to better synergise with the class passives.
I included a lot of balances (including the option to remove the stun from streak now that rune cage was a reasonably viable stun) and the numbers were left out, but indicated to not exceed the standards ZOS already set out to not create balance issues, but as usual it got shouted down by all the NB mains that troll these forums despite never mentioning NB anywhere in the post or the title, they just simply appeared and harassed, baited and bashed the crap out of that thread until it got so heavily moderated I never bothered responding in it anymore.

Yep, the NBs trolling the forums successfully shut down any discussion about reworking/buffing the literal weakest class in the game at that time despite balance options being provided to not make it OP and by not doing anything to stop it, despite several reports being submitted, the mods just allowed it to continue and get completely out of hand.
So much for the forums being inclusive and friendly, it's only that way if you agree with everything the NBs say...

For Daedric minefield, it was used in U34 on a niche dark convergence build and a niche melee build for IC/sewers where it was ok, but it wasn't anywhere near as good as a traditional necro bomber and other classes were just flat out better for that melee playstyle (DK/plar/warden/NB). Outside of that, it was ok in PvE since it was a nice burst of damage against bosses despite its hefty 5400 mag cost.

Ever since ZOS completely destroyed that ability in U35 though alongside the overnerf to sorcs that same patch that completely deleted magsorc as a playable class, it hasn't seen any real play.
It needs the target cap removed again or reduce its cost down to like 2500 to make it somewhat usable, but I won't be holding my breath for it with how many NBs troll these forums, who instantly jump onto anything that even remotely asks for sorcs to get anything that resembles QoL/buff/fix, screaming and crying about "streak OP" etc etc.

Turtle_Bot

IncultaWolf wrote: »

What's magsorc? Just use masters duel wield/vateshran ice staff and pick the best morphs

If this patch goes through, magsorc will just be a proc bowsorc that uses the blue coloured resource instead of the green one anyway.

Melzo

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Agreed, what it really comes down to in my opinion is the bar space problem, combined with the lack of Major and Minor Buffs that the class has.

You would think that the class that provides Minor Prophecy to the group would also have Major Prophecy somewhere tied to an ability in it’s kit.

Why does an ability that heals you on critical strikes give Major Sorcery instead of Prophecy?

They could take a look at Rune Prison and rework that into a heal or any of the other abilities not seeing any use in either PvE or PvP.

Like let’s be real here, when was the last time you’ve seen a Sorcerer use Daedric Minefield? That ability was a staple on Sorcerer year 1 and 2. Or how about the Clanfear? You just don’t see that pet anywhere other than a Sorc Tank and even then it’s unreliable.

Yeah, bar space has been such a massive pain point for sorcerer ever since the removal of the overload 3rd bar (which ZOS has still never compensated sorcs for even to this day and tbh I don't think they even realise what that change did to ruin sorcerer). Not only that, but sorcs main form of defense (shields) has been constantly nerfed into the ground, not just by numbers but via mechanical changes to its functionality as well.

I wonder what NBs would say if they suddenly had their bar space reduced by 1/3. Only 3 active abilities and 1 ultimate per bar.
No class has had those kinds of nerfs done to them except sorcerer, hence why I have no sympathy for NBs who cry about the Elswyr patch. They got off insanely easy compared to the nerfs sorcerer has constantly received over the years and will continue to receive until ZOS decides to actually fix the class properly.

At this point crit surge should just give both buffs or just simply proc off dealing any damage, especially when you look at NB getting access to pretty much every single buff/debuff (both major and minor) in the game in their class kit and plenty of unique buffs/mechanics on top of that alongside strictly better versions of most of sorcs abilities and passives to boot. There's simply no reason the ability should not get that buff.

Yeah, rune prison needs a complete rework, as does encase, both skills are completely unplayable for both PvE and PvP. Encase especially, since it's not only completely useless in PvP thanks to all the free snare/immobilization immunity being given out, but it also actively hinders the tanks ability to pull and group up mobs in PvE by granting those mobs/adds CC immunity.

I actually proposed a huge rework to sorcerers back in U36 (when they were really bottom of the barrel) including specifically for rune cage and encase (making rune cage into a DoT/HoT ability where defensive rune was a self HoT that stuns the next target that attacks you after a 2 seconds delay and rune prison was a single target sticky DoT that attempts to stun the target after a 2 second delay. Alongside this was a complete tidy up and update to sorcs passives and changing damage types of frags/curse to shock damage to better synergise with the class passives.
I included a lot of balances (including the option to remove the stun from streak now that rune cage was a reasonably viable stun) and the numbers were left out, but indicated to not exceed the standards ZOS already set out to not create balance issues, but as usual it got shouted down by all the NB mains that troll these forums despite never mentioning NB anywhere in the post or the title, they just simply appeared and harassed, baited and bashed the crap out of that thread until it got so heavily moderated I never bothered responding in it anymore.

Yep, the NBs trolling the forums successfully shut down any discussion about reworking/buffing the literal weakest class in the game at that time despite balance options being provided to not make it OP and by not doing anything to stop it, despite several reports being submitted, the mods just allowed it to continue and get completely out of hand.
So much for the forums being inclusive and friendly, it's only that way if you agree with everything the NBs say...

For Daedric minefield, it was used in U34 on a niche dark convergence build and a niche melee build for IC/sewers where it was ok, but it wasn't anywhere near as good as a traditional necro bomber and other classes were just flat out better for that melee playstyle (DK/plar/warden/NB). Outside of that, it was ok in PvE since it was a nice burst of damage against bosses despite its hefty 5400 mag cost.

Ever since ZOS completely destroyed that ability in U35 though alongside the overnerf to sorcs that same patch that completely deleted magsorc as a playable class, it hasn't seen any real play.
It needs the target cap removed again or reduce its cost down to like 2500 to make it somewhat usable, but I won't be holding my breath for it with how many NBs troll these forums, who instantly jump onto anything that even remotely asks for sorcs to get anything that resembles QoL/buff/fix, screaming and crying about "streak OP" etc etc.

Using a set of dc, you could use mines with one button to remove half the life of one enemy. Of course, against the crowd, he worked worse, but anyway it was too greedy a combo in which you were beaten for 5 mines, the damage of which can be compared with a curse, but there were 5 of them. Also with mines there were other combos like pulling from a crossbow. The mines were nerfed for a reason. You still get a good skill whose damage is pretty good and you also immobilize. Many sorcerers created builds without this skill even when the sorcerer was not so nerfed. And this skill is much better than 90 percent of the skills that operate on earth.

The argument against this skill is that you can outrun this skill. Stupid argument if you put 5 mines in a narrow passage or you just kite around the mines. One way or another, you will have to walk through the mines and die from the fact that a curse and damage from 5 mines will fly to you. The damage from mines is not small.

In PvE content, you can place 3 mines under the boss every 6 seconds and deal damage like 3 crystal attacks. In fact, mine damage to a single target is superior to any skill in the game. Or am I wrong?

In pvp, mines are superior to any skill on the ground. As long as the Necromancer's Coffins or other similar skill deals 5k damage in 10 seconds, the mines will deal that much damage instantly. And who will just do stand in one place for 10 seconds? In general, mines are useful, and all other skills that deal damage within 10-20 seconds on the ground are useless garbage.

Turtle_Bot

Melzo wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Agreed, what it really comes down to in my opinion is the bar space problem, combined with the lack of Major and Minor Buffs that the class has.

You would think that the class that provides Minor Prophecy to the group would also have Major Prophecy somewhere tied to an ability in it’s kit.

Why does an ability that heals you on critical strikes give Major Sorcery instead of Prophecy?

They could take a look at Rune Prison and rework that into a heal or any of the other abilities not seeing any use in either PvE or PvP.

Like let’s be real here, when was the last time you’ve seen a Sorcerer use Daedric Minefield? That ability was a staple on Sorcerer year 1 and 2. Or how about the Clanfear? You just don’t see that pet anywhere other than a Sorc Tank and even then it’s unreliable.

Yeah, bar space has been such a massive pain point for sorcerer ever since the removal of the overload 3rd bar (which ZOS has still never compensated sorcs for even to this day and tbh I don't think they even realise what that change did to ruin sorcerer). Not only that, but sorcs main form of defense (shields) has been constantly nerfed into the ground, not just by numbers but via mechanical changes to its functionality as well.

I wonder what NBs would say if they suddenly had their bar space reduced by 1/3. Only 3 active abilities and 1 ultimate per bar.
No class has had those kinds of nerfs done to them except sorcerer, hence why I have no sympathy for NBs who cry about the Elswyr patch. They got off insanely easy compared to the nerfs sorcerer has constantly received over the years and will continue to receive until ZOS decides to actually fix the class properly.

At this point crit surge should just give both buffs or just simply proc off dealing any damage, especially when you look at NB getting access to pretty much every single buff/debuff (both major and minor) in the game in their class kit and plenty of unique buffs/mechanics on top of that alongside strictly better versions of most of sorcs abilities and passives to boot. There's simply no reason the ability should not get that buff.

Yeah, rune prison needs a complete rework, as does encase, both skills are completely unplayable for both PvE and PvP. Encase especially, since it's not only completely useless in PvP thanks to all the free snare/immobilization immunity being given out, but it also actively hinders the tanks ability to pull and group up mobs in PvE by granting those mobs/adds CC immunity.

I actually proposed a huge rework to sorcerers back in U36 (when they were really bottom of the barrel) including specifically for rune cage and encase (making rune cage into a DoT/HoT ability where defensive rune was a self HoT that stuns the next target that attacks you after a 2 seconds delay and rune prison was a single target sticky DoT that attempts to stun the target after a 2 second delay. Alongside this was a complete tidy up and update to sorcs passives and changing damage types of frags/curse to shock damage to better synergise with the class passives.
I included a lot of balances (including the option to remove the stun from streak now that rune cage was a reasonably viable stun) and the numbers were left out, but indicated to not exceed the standards ZOS already set out to not create balance issues, but as usual it got shouted down by all the NB mains that troll these forums despite never mentioning NB anywhere in the post or the title, they just simply appeared and harassed, baited and bashed the crap out of that thread until it got so heavily moderated I never bothered responding in it anymore.

Yep, the NBs trolling the forums successfully shut down any discussion about reworking/buffing the literal weakest class in the game at that time despite balance options being provided to not make it OP and by not doing anything to stop it, despite several reports being submitted, the mods just allowed it to continue and get completely out of hand.
So much for the forums being inclusive and friendly, it's only that way if you agree with everything the NBs say...

For Daedric minefield, it was used in U34 on a niche dark convergence build and a niche melee build for IC/sewers where it was ok, but it wasn't anywhere near as good as a traditional necro bomber and other classes were just flat out better for that melee playstyle (DK/plar/warden/NB). Outside of that, it was ok in PvE since it was a nice burst of damage against bosses despite its hefty 5400 mag cost.

Ever since ZOS completely destroyed that ability in U35 though alongside the overnerf to sorcs that same patch that completely deleted magsorc as a playable class, it hasn't seen any real play.
It needs the target cap removed again or reduce its cost down to like 2500 to make it somewhat usable, but I won't be holding my breath for it with how many NBs troll these forums, who instantly jump onto anything that even remotely asks for sorcs to get anything that resembles QoL/buff/fix, screaming and crying about "streak OP" etc etc.

Using a set of dc, you could use mines with one button to remove half the life of one enemy. Of course, against the crowd, he worked worse, but anyway it was too greedy a combo in which you were beaten for 5 mines, the damage of which can be compared with a curse, but there were 5 of them. Also with mines there were other combos like pulling from a crossbow. The mines were nerfed for a reason. You still get a good skill whose damage is pretty good and you also immobilize. Many sorcerers created builds without this skill even when the sorcerer was not so nerfed. And this skill is much better than 90 percent of the skills that operate on earth.

The argument against this skill is that you can outrun this skill. Stupid argument if you put 5 mines in a narrow passage or you just kite around the mines. One way or another, you will have to walk through the mines and die from the fact that a curse and damage from 5 mines will fly to you. The damage from mines is not small.

In PvE content, you can place 3 mines under the boss every 6 seconds and deal damage like 3 crystal attacks. In fact, mine damage to a single target is superior to any skill in the game. Or am I wrong?

Unlike colossus, the 5 mines had to placed around the caster NOT AT RANGE, range was 3 mines only, so for a sorc with really bad healing and mitigation and no invisibility to run into the middle of a group and cast the mines to proc dark convergance was a super risky play compared to casting colossus at max range (or from the top of keep walls) that not only deleted half of someones health instantly per smash, but applied major vulnerability on all enemies in its AoE that also increased the damage they took from dark convergence and colossus and vicious death/plaguebreak and all other sources by a substantial amount.

Unlike curse/frags/etc, mines are also the single most expensive damage skill in the game, at a cost of 5400 magicka per cast. That 5400 magicka cost was not sustainable. In PvE, at most the mines were used once every 8-10 seconds to sustain the cost or damage was heavily reduced to ensure enough sustain to support that cost. It is crazy expensive to use that skill.

Don't forget that even though after the change in U35 making it so that targets can only be affected once every 2 seconds now, that 5400 cost per cast is still there. Mines are now the same damage as hard casting frags once every 2 seconds, but with double the cost to cast it.

I also said that it was good in IC Sewers where the narrow corridors forced you to either run through it or turn around, but outside of that niche scenario the build was mediocre and other classes could do the same playstyles of those builds better.

Turtle_Bot

I was comparing them because they were the most common skills being used to trigger the convergence bomb builds by the 2 classes.

If you want to compare non ultimate to non ultimate and ultimate to ultimate, fine, lets compare.

Necro had boneyard that had a synergy that deleted 3/4 of all enemies health in that area with 1 button press that also dealt a DoT and triggered dark convergence pulling everyone into it. Mines was limited to 3 targets unless the sorc put itself in extreme risk to set up the 5 mines. Boneyard also had 1/2 the cost to use than mines did despite having an AoE damage that was higher than mines and dealt all of its damage to all targets in its AoE. You could also take the other morph of boneyard that instead of the self synergy, inflicted MAJOR breach on all targets in its AoE. Both morphs of boneyard were also completely at range unlike the more damage morph of mines.

Negate deals minimal damage in PvP (like 1k per second on the damage morph) compared to colossus which I have gone through above. Negate also doesn't do anything to stamina builds and they can just ignore it too. Both negate and colossus cost 225 ultimate, so its not like negate was significantly cheaper to cast to make up for the extreme lack of damage it had.

It's not even comparable, necro was objectively the better bomber class by a large amount back then and was why sorc bomber was a super niche build that was rarely seen even in ball groups that abused that build like crazy.

Melzo

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I was comparing them because they were the most common skills being used to trigger the convergence bomb builds by the 2 classes.

If you want to compare non ultimate to non ultimate and ultimate to ultimate, fine, lets compare.

Necro had boneyard that had a synergy that deleted 3/4 of all enemies health in that area with 1 button press that also dealt a DoT and triggered dark convergence pulling everyone into it. Mines was limited to 3 targets unless the sorc put itself in extreme risk to set up the 5 mines. Boneyard also had 1/2 the cost to use than mines did despite having an AoE damage that was higher than mines and dealt all of its damage to all targets in its AoE. You could also take the other morph of boneyard that instead of the self synergy, inflicted MAJOR breach on all targets in its AoE. Both morphs of boneyard were also completely at range unlike the more damage morph of mines.

Negate deals minimal damage in PvP (like 1k per second on the damage morph) compared to colossus which I have gone through above. Negate also doesn't do anything to stamina builds and they can just ignore it too. Both negate and colossus cost 225 ultimate, so its not like negate was significantly cheaper to cast to make up for the extreme lack of damage it had.

It's not even comparable, necro was objectively the better bomber class by a large amount back then and was why sorc bomber was a super niche build that was rarely seen even in ball groups that abused that build like crazy.

You don't know much about bomb builds. I'm still playing Necromancer Bombs and my damage hasn't decreased much. The synergy dealt about 10,000 damage. But this is only when using the ult with all sets of procs. There, the blastobons did 8,000 damage. Under normal circumstances, you have a skill that deals damage 7000 times every 20 seconds.

And here is the assembly of the bomb for the sorcerer. Take the dc to the back with the fire staff and use the appropriate ultimate but on the front use the mace or ax from the dragon star arena. I have about the same assembly on the necromancer.

This is a classic assembly for any class and it works with any class. Only the necromancer and the dk use their ultimates.


When I talked about mines, I meant one-on-one pvp skill abuse. And not builds through build bombs.

Turtle_Bot

I have played bomb builds quite a lot, in fact as recently as last whitestrakes mayhem event where I used that exact build you described on my sorcerer with dark convergence back bar and 2 hand carve front bar with perfected dragonstar arena battle axe (for the bigger crit damage).

I also played a necro bomber back in U34 as part of a small scale with friends and it was ridiculously strong. Because I was part of a group I ran the breach morph of boneyard (my friend on the DK was the one running in for the synergy), but I have seen the self synergy used just as effectively and they were not hitting for 10k with the 60% buff they were getting from the harmony traits, it was much higher. You also only need to have 1 low health (or squishy) enemy in the AoE with the synergy to start the entire bomb chain reaction, with sorc bomber, you needed the mine to hit the low health (or squishy) target or the chain reaction would not start.

Melzo

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I have played bomb builds quite a lot, in fact as recently as last whitestrakes mayhem event where I used that exact build you described on my sorcerer with dark convergence back bar and 2 hand carve front bar with perfected dragonstar arena battle axe (for the bigger crit damage).

I also played a necro bomber back in U34 as part of a small scale with friends and it was ridiculously strong. Because I was part of a group I ran the breach morph of boneyard (my friend on the DK was the one running in for the synergy), but I have seen the self synergy used just as effectively and they were not hitting for 10k with the 60% buff they were getting from the harmony traits, it was much higher. You also only need to have 1 low health (or squishy) enemy in the AoE with the synergy to start the entire bomb chain reaction, with sorc bomber, you needed the mine to hit the low health (or squishy) target or the chain reaction would not start.

So what's the problem then? Synergy has been nerfed. Do you want to return the mines? And at the same time synergy for me? Even with the buffs behind the last two patches, the necromancer is still ***. But the most important thing is that the necromancer is a class designed for bomb builds or crowd damage. You can't argue that a necromancer shouldn't kill a bunch of players. After all, any sorcerer will win in a battle with a necromancer. Because that's how classes were created. The mines are nerfed but the sorcerer is still working and the mines do good damage, the synergy is nerfed and the necromancer is dead. Feel the difference?

Melzo

I still don't understand what the point is. What with synergy, what without it, I still kill a crowd of opponents. In a one-on-one battle, synergy did not provide such a serious advantage. And in a mass battle, it is enough to have a two-handed weapon from the dragonstar arena. But then the dc had a cooldown of 15 seconds and with one button the sorcerer could deal 15-25 thousand damage in a normal battle as a normal pvp build. These numbers are without crit. If you put on a well-known set that gives a crit chance for 5 seconds, you would see this mockery ...

Turtle_Bot

If you go back and read my post that you initially replied to, I was referring to U35 and U36 where sorcerer was in such a bad state thanks to over nerfs by ZOS that the class literally did not exist in PvP.

I'm done trying to explain things to you, you've done nothing but harass sorc threads non stop ever since U35/36 when sorcs back then were weaker than necros are now trying to call sorcs overpowered and broken in that patch where sorcs were literally non-existent in PvP.

Please, just stick to commenting on necro threads, it's getting sad and pathetic just how bias against sorcerers you clearly are.

Aces-High-82

On topic: ZOS Made very clear they aren't interested in any sort of feedback. Report bugs/exploits you come along and hope they'll get fixed between now and and the sun deveouring earth at it's life cycles end.

Jsmalls

My problem with the change is I feel like it went from a general buff (10% single target damage) to many different build options, to a buff targeted at builds that apply status effects (force pulse with charged trait, or elemental susceptibility etc etc). Which seems like a step in the wrong direction.

katorga

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Agreed, what it really comes down to in my opinion is the bar space problem, combined with the lack of Major and Minor Buffs that the class has.

You would think that the class that provides Minor Prophecy to the group would also have Major Prophecy somewhere tied to an ability in it’s kit.

Why does an ability that heals you on critical strikes give Major Sorcery instead of Prophecy?

They could take a look at Rune Prison and rework that into a heal or any of the other abilities not seeing any use in either PvE or PvP.

Like let’s be real here, when was the last time you’ve seen a Sorcerer use Daedric Minefield? That ability was a staple on Sorcerer year 1 and 2. Or how about the Clanfear? You just don’t see that pet anywhere other than a Sorc Tank and even then it’s unreliable.

Yeah, bar space has been such a massive pain point for sorcerer ever since the removal of the overload 3rd bar (which ZOS has still never compensated sorcs for even to this day and tbh I don't think they even realise what that change did to ruin sorcerer). Not only that, but sorcs main form of defense (shields) has been constantly nerfed into the ground, not just by numbers but via mechanical changes to its functionality as well.

I wonder what NBs would say if they suddenly had their bar space reduced by 1/3. Only 3 active abilities and 1 ultimate per bar.
No class has had those kinds of nerfs done to them except sorcerer, hence why I have no sympathy for NBs who cry about the Elswyr patch. They got off insanely easy compared to the nerfs sorcerer has constantly received over the years and will continue to receive until ZOS decides to actually fix the class properly.

At this point crit surge should just give both buffs or just simply proc off dealing any damage, especially when you look at NB getting access to pretty much every single buff/debuff (both major and minor) in the game in their class kit and plenty of unique buffs/mechanics on top of that alongside strictly better versions of most of sorcs abilities and passives to boot. There's simply no reason the ability should not get that buff.

Yeah, rune prison needs a complete rework, as does encase, both skills are completely unplayable for both PvE and PvP. Encase especially, since it's not only completely useless in PvP thanks to all the free snare/immobilization immunity being given out, but it also actively hinders the tanks ability to pull and group up mobs in PvE by granting those mobs/adds CC immunity.

I actually proposed a huge rework to sorcerers back in U36 (when they were really bottom of the barrel) including specifically for rune cage and encase (making rune cage into a DoT/HoT ability where defensive rune was a self HoT that stuns the next target that attacks you after a 2 seconds delay and rune prison was a single target sticky DoT that attempts to stun the target after a 2 second delay. Alongside this was a complete tidy up and update to sorcs passives and changing damage types of frags/curse to shock damage to better synergise with the class passives.
I included a lot of balances (including the option to remove the stun from streak now that rune cage was a reasonably viable stun) and the numbers were left out, but indicated to not exceed the standards ZOS already set out to not create balance issues, but as usual it got shouted down by all the NB mains that troll these forums despite never mentioning NB anywhere in the post or the title, they just simply appeared and harassed, baited and bashed the crap out of that thread until it got so heavily moderated I never bothered responding in it anymore.

Yep, the NBs trolling the forums successfully shut down any discussion about reworking/buffing the literal weakest class in the game at that time despite balance options being provided to not make it OP and by not doing anything to stop it, despite several reports being submitted, the mods just allowed it to continue and get completely out of hand.
So much for the forums being inclusive and friendly, it's only that way if you agree with everything the NBs say...

For Daedric minefield, it was used in U34 on a niche dark convergence build and a niche melee build for IC/sewers where it was ok, but it wasn't anywhere near as good as a traditional necro bomber and other classes were just flat out better for that melee playstyle (DK/plar/warden/NB). Outside of that, it was ok in PvE since it was a nice burst of damage against bosses despite its hefty 5400 mag cost.

Ever since ZOS completely destroyed that ability in U35 though alongside the overnerf to sorcs that same patch that completely deleted magsorc as a playable class, it hasn't seen any real play.
It needs the target cap removed again or reduce its cost down to like 2500 to make it somewhat usable, but I won't be holding my breath for it with how many NBs troll these forums, who instantly jump onto anything that even remotely asks for sorcs to get anything that resembles QoL/buff/fix, screaming and crying about "streak OP" etc etc.

The shield nerfs should be backed out for all of the classes that have them. They are an anachronism in today's game. Healing scales infinitely with stats, has four major/minor % buffs (not counting CP), and can crit. Shields are capped and have one CP buffing size. Even the Arcanist ward which is a shield AND a heal is garbage compared to just block casting an instant burst heal.

The daedric mines nerf never made any sense. Hit all five, and you still barely reach one Merciless Resolve proc. Plus it was completely avoidable by the target. I guess another skill make completely useless because they put Dark Convergence in the game (a bad move btw).

And yes, a certain dev has overloaded his favorite class.

Melzo

I wrote above that the mines were too strong because two or all five could work at once. It is not always possible to run around mines. And you were either dragged into mines or you had to run through them. Try to run five mines. If it's a matter of mana, then it's quite possible to agree that it is possible to reduce the cost of mines, but mines are not the only mechanic that is broken or too strong mechanics. Heavy attack dk or necromancer colossus. In the first case, the players killed with one hit without counterplay, in the other, a buff was added to you that increased damage by 30 percent. Mines are still a good skill. You can't just abuse the mechanics now. That's where you get offended.

Minami could be abused in combination with a crossbow before, but with proc sets, this has reached a new level. Curse and mines under set dc instantly killed players.

Abuse of some mechanics leads to nerfs. They themselves used and paid for it with a nerf.

Melzo

By the way, heavy attack was nerfed for the same reason. Abusing a skill leads to a nerf.

Melzo

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

[Snip]

It doesn't work that way. I wrote that the skeleton archer is weak and you need to give him a buff. In the next patch, he was nerfed and the ghost too. After that, I wrote that the necromancer has nothing but synergy, but in the next patch, the synergy was also nerfed. I wrote a couple of times in topics about the sorcerer that he is very strong and the sorcerer received buffs. I do not understand something in this life.

[Removed quote]

Aces-High-82

Melzo wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

[Snip]

It doesn't work that way. I wrote that the skeleton archer is weak and you need to give him a buff. In the next patch, he was nerfed and the ghost too. After that, I wrote that the necromancer has nothing but synergy, but in the next patch, the synergy was also nerfed. I wrote a couple of times in topics about the sorcerer that he is very strong and the sorcerer received buffs. I do not understand something in this life.

Nobody argues that Necro (pvp/except healer setups) ist at the very bottom but calling sorcs strong is ...lets say questionable. DK and NB are top dogs for having an reproducable health desync at their hands in addition to some weird reasoned amount of buffs and overloaded skills. Overload ist capable to desync too but it's random and running it as your ult is going to loose you some weapon passives while active. Plus you rely heavily on a hit'n run playstyle.

[Edited quote]

Melzo

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

[Snip]

It doesn't work that way. I wrote that the skeleton archer is weak and you need to give him a buff. In the next patch, he was nerfed and the ghost too. After that, I wrote that the necromancer has nothing but synergy, but in the next patch, the synergy was also nerfed. I wrote a couple of times in topics about the sorcerer that he is very strong and the sorcerer received buffs. I do not understand something in this life.

Nobody argues that Necro (pvp/except healer setups) ist at the very bottom but calling sorcs strong is ...lets say questionable. DK and NB are top dogs for having an reproducable health desync at their hands in addition to some weird reasoned amount of buffs and overloaded skills. Overload ist capable to desync too but it's random and running it as your ult is going to loose you some weapon passives while active. Plus you rely heavily on a hit'n run playstyle.

Where did you get that adhered to this style? I used harmony gameplay but hit and run more than once. In fact, I've played around with various builds based on synergy. I've played gryphon, I've played dual wielding from tragonstar arena, I've played light staff from dragonstar arena and synergy. I have created many combinations based on synergy including the use of three synergies. The synergy provided a lot of interesting ways to play besides using a broken dc set. Why does my class have to be destroyed because of a broken set?? The sorcerer got nerfed one skill that was very rarely hoped for from sorcerers. But even after the nerf, the mines deal 4-5 thousand damage. But now the synergy deals damage 3000 times every 20 seconds. Is honest just do?

Why, after a nerf, mines do adequate damage and immobilize the enemy, when, as a necromancer synergy, it only deals damage once every 20 seconds and deals 3000 damage?

[Edited quote]

Turtle_Bot

Melzo wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

[Snip]

It doesn't work that way. I wrote that the skeleton archer is weak and you need to give him a buff. In the next patch, he was nerfed and the ghost too. After that, I wrote that the necromancer has nothing but synergy, but in the next patch, the synergy was also nerfed. I wrote a couple of times in topics about the sorcerer that he is very strong and the sorcerer received buffs. I do not understand something in this life.

Nobody argues that Necro (pvp/except healer setups) ist at the very bottom but calling sorcs strong is ...lets say questionable. DK and NB are top dogs for having an reproducable health desync at their hands in addition to some weird reasoned amount of buffs and overloaded skills. Overload ist capable to desync too but it's random and running it as your ult is going to loose you some weapon passives while active. Plus you rely heavily on a hit'n run playstyle.

Where did you get that adhered to this style? I used harmony gameplay but hit and run more than once. In fact, I've played around with various builds based on synergy. I've played gryphon, I've played dual wielding from tragonstar arena, I've played light staff from dragonstar arena and synergy. I have created many combinations based on synergy including the use of three synergies. The synergy provided a lot of interesting ways to play besides using a broken dc set. Why does my class have to be destroyed because of a broken set?? The sorcerer got nerfed one skill that was very rarely hoped for from sorcerers. But even after the nerf, the mines deal 4-5 thousand damage. But now the synergy deals damage 3000 times every 20 seconds. Is honest just do?

Why, after a nerf, mines do adequate damage and immobilize the enemy, when, as a necromancer synergy, it only deals damage once every 20 seconds and deals 3000 damage?

One tiny nerf to mines? The ability that had its entire mechanic reworked to make it unusable with not even a tiny cost reduction to compensate for this?

Sorcerer was completely deleted in U35/36. People instantly abandoned kill sorcerer dailies because the class literally did not exist in PvP in U35/36.

Like I told you back then [Snip], it was such a bad over nerf to sorcerer (even more than what happened to your necro class) that ZOS was forced to buff 2 abilities by over 100% each that same PTS patch just to make the class playable in PvE, that did nothing to help the class in PvP.
That is not a "tiny nerf" like you have constantly claimed for a year now. No "tiny nerf" would ever result in multiple abilities getting a 100% or greater buff to them immediately without even waiting for 1 patch to see if those buffs were needed. It was that obvious that those over the top buffs were required because even ZOS spreadsheets were telling them that the over the top nerfs were that severe.

Necro got off lightly in U38 compared to what ZOS did to sorc in U35 and unlike sorc, necro is already starting to get buffs the very next patch where sorcs had to wait 2 full patches to get anything at all (and even then the small buffs they got did not fix the issues the class had and still has).

Sorc didn't even deserve the nerfs it got in that patch, savage werewolf was a set that the devs forgot to fix, DK was abusing oakensoul much more than sorcs were and necros were abusing dark convergence more than sorcs were as well, yet sorcs were the only class to get completely deleted that patch.

[Snip]

P.s. I am not trying to claim necro doesn't deserve to get buffed (like you have constantly claimed for sorcerers), I am in full support of buffing necro. I am simply pointing out that necro is not the only class to face the nerf hammer over the past year and necro isn't even the class that has had it the worst in that time either, so you need to stop attacking weaker classes like sorcerer and maybe focus your energy on providing suggestions to buff necro and bringing attention to the state of actually strong classes such as DK and NB.

[Edited quote/baiting]

katorga

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

[Snip]

It doesn't work that way. I wrote that the skeleton archer is weak and you need to give him a buff. In the next patch, he was nerfed and the ghost too. After that, I wrote that the necromancer has nothing but synergy, but in the next patch, the synergy was also nerfed. I wrote a couple of times in topics about the sorcerer that he is very strong and the sorcerer received buffs. I do not understand something in this life.

Nobody argues that Necro (pvp/except healer setups) ist at the very bottom but calling sorcs strong is ...lets say questionable. DK and NB are top dogs for having an reproducable health desync at their hands in addition to some weird reasoned amount of buffs and overloaded skills. Overload ist capable to desync too but it's random and running it as your ult is going to loose you some weapon passives while active. Plus you rely heavily on a hit'n run playstyle.

DK's is just on another level. From everything else.

But Sorc and NB. Go to the build editor, put the same build on each, and enable all of the class buffs, passives, and available major/minor buffs native to the class. The NB will have about 30% (or higher) "effective weapon/spell power" as calculated by the builder. My NB's concealed weapon hits as hard as my sorc's Curse.

[Edited quote]

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

We've had to remove and edit a few non-constructive and baiting comments. We know people will not always agree and many of you will share different opinions, but please remember that being rude to your fellow community members is against our forum rules and not in the spirit of our game.

Thank you for your understanding.

Pelanora

"Which just like it did in U35, results in a complete overnerf of the class in the early weeks of the PTS followed by another misguided panic buff to pets and daedric prey because the overnerf from the early PTS weeks deleted the class entirely from all content just like it did in U35 PTS cycle."

So true and funny i did laugh @Turtle_Bot