Nightblade - Stamina/Magicka Imbalance

Decimus

Hello! Just making a thread about this as I didn't see too much talk about it.

Currently when playing nightblade you're heavily pushed towards magicka attributes (and consequently race etc) - we're at a point where a magicka specced nightblade does everything better than a stamina specced one, whether we're talking about PvE or PvP.


There are a couple of reasons for this.

First one is the obvious imbalance between the magicka spammable Concealed Weapon and the stamina spammable Surprise Attack. The highest parsing PvE builds right now are using Concealed Weapon as the morph is simply much stronger than the alternative... people are literally using it either as spammable (on magicka builds) or as a buff skill (on stamina builds).

A guaranteed critical strike every 4 seconds and Sundered status simply does not compete with 10% damage done modifier, not even in PvE where you don't have to worry about that Critical Hit doing significantly less damage due to impenetrable/rallying cry etc.


Needless to say, in PvP Concealed Weapon is even stronger compared to Surprise Attack as you also gain significant benefit from the passive Minor Expedition speed.


Concealed Weapon needs to be tuned down in efficiency, or Surprise Attack buffed - especially when it comes to PvP.


The second problem with nightblade can be found in the Siphoning passives. Over a year ago the game was hybridized to the point where your damage will always scale based on highest stats - your abilities can cost either magicka or stamina, but they'll always check your highest stat (weapon/spell dmg, stamina/magicka etc) when it comes to how much damage/healing they do.

Sounds good right? Unfortunately nightblade class was left with a passive that does not fit in with the goal of hybridization: Magicka Flood.

Magicka Flood is the only class passive in the game that only benefits people speccing into maximum magicka, as it provides 8% Maximum Magicka (and only Magicka) for having a Siphoning ability slotted.


This passive needs to be changed into something more universally useful that doesn't pigeonhole min-maxers into max magicka builds to get the most out of their class.


I'm not going to touch other nightblade matters as I think those have been covered extensively here on the PTS forums, but this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine and would be nice to see some changes in this regard.


Thanks for reading!

Edit:
There was an update to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack in the PTS Patch 9.1.2.

Veiled Strike
Surprise Attack: Reduced the cooldown of the guaranteed Critical Strike on this morph to 3 seconds, down from 4.
Concealed Weapon: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 7-10 seconds based on rank, rather than a unique 7-10% damage done when meeting its conditions.

I believe the change to Surprise Attack certainly helps make it more competitive in PvE, but for PvP this changes little.

A good way to make Surprise Attack a little bit more appealing in PvP compared to Concealed Weapon would be giving Veiled Strike (base morph) the Minor Expedition, as the base version of the skill currently only does damage and sets people Off Balance and extra speed (particularly when paired with +10% damage, which every build apart from a few brawler builds running Sea-Serpent will still have).

Magicka Flood still needs to be updated to something that doesn't just encourage people to put their attributes into magicka instead of stamina.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

A good buff for Stamina builds would be to make Medium Armor grants penetration and critical again and Magicka flood should grant 8% stamina whichever offensive stat is currently higher.

Sikon

I totally agree with you on this Nightblade issue atm. I pointed out this case in another thread especially focused on the PVE situation for NBs.
It's good that you focus on the PvP impact of this and also clarify the "Magicka Flood" Hybridization.

If you want you can also checkout my thread here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638169/lets-face-the-nightblade-problem

kojou

I agree with you on Concealed Weapon. I never really liked that interaction between it and Expedition.

emilyhyoyeon

I don't even know how Veiled Strike turned into what it is currently. Right now the morphs are not only unbalanced, but also just a mess. Clean it up, something like:

Base: does damage and gives the 10% damage buff
Stam: does damage and gives the 10% damage buff + sets off balance from flank
Mag: does damage and gives the 10% damage buff + minor expedition

or

Base: does damage and sets off balance from flank
Stam: does damage and sets off balance from flank + 10% damage buff
Mag: does damage and sets off balance from flank + minor expedition

Or something else. Get rid of the 10% thing and put something else there, maybe. Concealed is just way too overstacked right now.


Also a bit off topic but... I don't even know why Veiled Strike & morphs are in the Shadow line and why Blur & morphs are in the assassination line. I mean it's probably because nightblade was made back when the classes' skill lines weren't designed with damage-tank-heal separation in mind. But now at this point I think they need to be swapped. Way more intuitive and coherent with the NB passives.

VixxVexx

I think at base it should just proc off balance. Let the stam version have the sundered effect and the mag version the minor expedition. Remove the 10% extra damage and adjust to Flood passive to 10% of both resources.

NyassaV

It has always been easier to stack max magicka than it has been to stack max stam. As for the speed passive I preferred how it used to be, where you were caster when cloaked, I don't know why they gave it minor expedition that's just rude to sorc.

DrNukenstein

NB has a mag bias for stats, but a stam bias for buffs with m savagery. If you want to prebuff M Brut/Sorc without a 2 hander, you will have much better synergy with stamina potions.

That said the class feels great with a big mag pool, and small but fast stam pool. If they made the passive boost stam too, it would be a buff to the class but it would remove the advantages of that very fun stat distribution.

Decimus

DrNukenstein wrote: »

NB has a mag bias for stats, but a stam bias for buffs with m savagery. If you want to prebuff M Brut/Sorc without a 2 hander, you will have much better synergy with stamina potions.

That said the class feels great with a big mag pool, and small but fast stam pool. If they made the passive boost stam too, it would be a buff to the class but it would remove the advantages of that very fun stat distribution.

There are ways around getting Major Savagery on a magicka NB in order to stack it with the class Minor Savagery - there are no ways around a passive giving you 8% magicka except having your attributes and racial passives in magicka to benefit from it.


It's nice if magblades are having fun with a small stam pool, I happen to have one as well.

However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be possible to build around stamina as well without severely gimping yourself.

merpins

Making Concealed Weapon scale with the higher resource would help to fix the problem, imo.

pedrogonzalez

Just put back major breach to surprise

Zabagad

merpins wrote: »

Making Concealed Weapon scale with the higher resource would help to fix the problem, imo.

I don't play NBs yet (just leveling my for U39), but are you sure it doesn't?
I thought since hybrid all(?) skills do that and at least if I use UESP, Concealed Weapon scales with the higher resource....

BasP

Zabagad wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Making Concealed Weapon scale with the higher resource would help to fix the problem, imo.

I don't play NBs yet (just leveling my for U39), but are you sure it doesn't?
I thought since hybrid all(?) skills do that and at least if I use UESP, Concealed Weapon scales with the higher resource....

I think they meant that the cost of Concealed Weapon would depend on the highest max resource (like some of the Arcanist's skills), so that Stamblades could use it as a spammable too instead of having to use CW alongside a spammable.

Bokila

Just make surprise attack always crit from behind like it was first in the pts and let it cc as it was. It will compensate with the huge dmg buff you get from concealed weapon.

Zastrix

VixxVexx wrote: »

I think at base it should just proc off balance. Let the stam version have the sundered effect and the mag version the minor expedition. Remove the 10% extra damage and adjust to Flood passive to 10% of both resources.

This will be really bad in PvE. Just give sundered to stam, minor exp. to mag and 10% + offbalance to base.

master_vanargand

Comparing Concealed Weapon and Surprise Attack shows that the game balance is out of order.
Need move Concealed Weapon's "your damage done is increased by 10%" to Veiled Strike (base skill).
Don't penalize people who like "Stamina Nightblade DPS".

JerBearESO

Hm...idk about giving stam blade essentially 15% more damage when NB is already getting buffs....

master_vanargand

PvE stamina Nightblade is in despair.
Can't understand the suffering of PvE stam NB?

Currently only Magicka Nightblade is playable in PvE.

Those who want to use Stamina Nightblade in PvE will be punished and weakened.
ESO is a sinner when you play it the way you want it.

Cast_El

Nb is the last class who needs buff

Turtle_Bot

I would be fine with buffs to NB if the buffs were strictly limited to PvE only.

But until that happens, just no. NB is already top tier in PvP, it does not need anymore help there and the devs seem intent on not limiting the buffs they give to NB to PvE only so it's going to have to be a flat no until they change their minds and do the right thing for actual balance.

emilyhyoyeon

Hybridization was a mistake. Revert it. No other option, really.

master_vanargand

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I would be fine with buffs to NB if the buffs were strictly limited to PvE only.

But until that happens, just no. NB is already top tier in PvP, it does not need anymore help there and the devs seem intent on not limiting the buffs they give to NB to PvE only so it's going to have to be a flat no until they change their minds and do the right thing for actual balance.

NB is not top tier for PvP.
Top tier in PvP is DK and everything else is garbage.

JerBearESO

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Hybridization was a mistake. Revert it. No other option, really.

No, hybridization is fine. It just needs more follow up

Lykeion

Maintaining the magicka required for Concealed Weapon is now a huge challenge for Stamblade. Considering the new mechanic introduced in Arcanist where consumption depends on maximum resources, modifying Concealed Weapon to also dynamically consume maximum resources might be a good solution.

Zastrix

Lykeion wrote: »

Maintaining the magicka required for Concealed Weapon is now a huge challenge for Stamblade. Considering the new mechanic introduced in Arcanist where consumption depends on maximum resources, modifying Concealed Weapon to also dynamically consume maximum resources might be a good solution.

I'd be fine with this as long as they don't increase the cost on a parse in the end. As a magblade I'm currently having sustain issues on a 105-110k parse on PTS and can barely sustain the execute.

Tornaad

The whole game has an imbalance towards stamina builds. The Arcanist presents a wonderful breath of fresh air in that imbalance, and I hope that spreads to other classes in the form of class reworks.

The imbalance I am talking about is seen through the following question:

For class skills, how many unmorphed skills are stamina? If you count the morphed skills how big of a difference does that make?

Based on those numbers, every class is a magic based class. The only way to make a class that does not use magic (if you wanted to) is to abandon your class skills. The Arcanist changes that, and I hope that make more changes like that to other classes.

Chilly-McFreeze

Tornaad wrote: »

The whole game has an imbalance towards stamina builds. The Arcanist presents a wonderful breath of fresh air in that imbalance, and I hope that spreads to other classes in the form of class reworks.

The imbalance I am talking about is seen through the following question:

For class skills, how many unmorphed skills are stamina? If you count the morphed skills how big of a difference does that make?

Based on those numbers, every class is a magic based class. The only way to make a class that does not use magic (if you wanted to) is to abandon your class skills. The Arcanist changes that, and I hope that make more changes like that to other classes.

Unmorphed class skills are mostly magic bc of how the Game was designed. Class skills were magic, weapon skills stamina. Iirc the game didnt divide builds into stam/mag at first. It was introduced later as a cheap way to increase number of classes.

Tornaad

I didn't know that.
I can see it

Decimus

There was an update to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack in the PTS Patch 9.1.2.

Veiled Strike
Surprise Attack: Reduced the cooldown of the guaranteed Critical Strike on this morph to 3 seconds, down from 4.
Concealed Weapon: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 7-10 seconds based on rank, rather than a unique 7-10% damage done when meeting its conditions.

I believe the change to Surprise Attack certainly helps make it more competitive in PvE, but for PvP this changes little.

A good way to make Surprise Attack a little bit more appealing in PvP compared to Concealed Weapon would be giving Veiled Strike (base morph) the Minor Expedition, as the base version of the skill currently only does damage and sets people Off Balance and extra speed (particularly when paired with +10% damage, which every build apart from a few brawler builds running Sea-Serpent will still have).

Magicka Flood still needs to be updated to something that doesn't just encourage people to put their attributes into magicka instead of stamina.


Updated the original post.

emilyhyoyeon

JerBearESO wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Hybridization was a mistake. Revert it. No other option, really.

No, hybridization is fine. It just needs more follow up

it's a year and a half after it started and the four original classes still have the minor buffs issue

emilyhyoyeon

Decimus wrote: »

There was an update to Concealed Weapon/Surprise Attack in the PTS Patch 9.1.2.

Veiled Strike
Surprise Attack: Reduced the cooldown of the guaranteed Critical Strike on this morph to 3 seconds, down from 4.
Concealed Weapon: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 7-10 seconds based on rank, rather than a unique 7-10% damage done when meeting its conditions.

Magicka Flood still needs to be updated to something that doesn't just encourage people to put their attributes into magicka instead of stamina.

my favorite fix for this I've seen is changing it to +8% of mag or stam whichever is higher. Could change the name to something like ''Resource Flood'' instead as well