Give the "while slotted on either bar" treatment to concealed weapon

merpins

Pretty please? In all seriousness, I'm gonna put a list of skills that should have this benefit:

Nightblade:
Concealed Weapon
Death Stroke's morphs

Warden:
Bird of Prey
Magicka Morph of Bear to make it more competitive

Sorc:
One of the two pets at least. It doesn't need to be both.

Templar:
None unless you make the Solar Barrage bonus a passive, but it doesn't need to be.

DK & Necro:
I do not play these enough to have an opinion.

If ya have more suggestions, post them here.

the1andonlyskwex

If they're going to do it for anything, they should do it for everything that has an effect while slotted (where in the case of pets the effect is being allowed to keep the pet summoned).

Some more examples include: both sorc pets, Templar's Restoring Aura, Expert Hunter, Magelight, DK's Inferno, and several Necro skills.

Tyrant_Tim

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

If they're going to do it for anything, they should do it for everything that has an effect while slotted (where in the case of pets the effect is being allowed to keep the pet summoned).

Some more examples include: both sorc pets, Templar's Restoring Aura, Expert Hunter, Magelight, DK's Inferno, and several Necro skills.

Sorc pets definitely need the one bar treatment, playing a build with even one pet is extremely restrictive due to how hard it is to obtain Major and Minor buffs through Sorcerer class abilities.

NyassaV

Concealed doesn't need minor expedition, it was fine when it gave a unquie buff to speed when cloaked. Giving it expedition was just rude to sorcs.

The Reave passive however, I could see being nice on both bars.

JerBearESO

Also the shadow passive for % max health per shadow ability slotted needs this effect.

Should probably give NB a bit of a nerf somewhere when implementing these outstandingly good for QoL changes, since they do add a bit of power. Should do this with all classes that still need these QoL changes as well. We WANT the QoL, but must be cautious of how it buffs the class....

OBJnoob

Not here to argue, but genuinely curious, does anybody else kinda hate these quality of life changes and think things are becoming too easy?

I enjoy the difficulty of setting up ability bars and trying to get everything just right and where you need them.

I think this is a bad change that's going to inflate powercreep. I also think the armory station is pretty dumb. I read a thread a while ago complaining about the "in combat" bug we all love to hate, with a specific emphasis on this particular person wanted to pass through a castle door swap gear and then go right back out. Cuz they had a loadout prepared that was better for the situation apparently. Or people in trials swapping gear between trash and boss. Or people saving loadouts with unspent skill points to avoid ever paying gold again.

Like wow. Seems a bit much to me. Then again I play on Xbox and would exclusively play in Ravenwatch if it wasn't so dead and exploited. So there's a lot of "quality" I can't appreciate I guess. I been playing for like 5 years and only realized I could turn ability timers on like a year ago, LOL. Now I can't play without it cuz I forgot how to keep track of a rotation in my head. I can feel myself getting worse at the game, even as I beat better and better people.

emilyhyoyeon

OBJnoob wrote: »

Not here to argue, but genuinely curious, does anybody else kinda hate these quality of life changes and think things are becoming too easy?

I enjoy the difficulty of setting up ability bars and trying to get everything just right and where you need them.

yeah, I do as well. I was so disappointed, however long ago it was, when they merged physical and magical breach together. I think that was the first instance of ZOS starting to do stuff like this.

OBJnoob

@emilyhyoyeon Thank you! I'm glad someone agrees. Now I'll leave this thread alone because I don't want to rain on anyone's parade honestly... But jeez. Things are about to get pretty crazy with everybody having every buff on every bar.

Last thing I'ma say cuz I don't think anyone has said it yet-- this is going to be a huge nerf to Oakensoul.

merpins

OBJnoob wrote: »

@emilyhyoyeon Thank you! I'm glad someone agrees. Now I'll leave this thread alone because I don't want to rain on anyone's parade honestly... But jeez. Things are about to get pretty crazy with everybody having every buff on every bar.

Last thing I'ma say cuz I don't think anyone has said it yet-- this is going to be a huge nerf to Oakensoul.

Streamlining things isn't a bad thing. For example, not having to cast grim focus, and instead having it be passive with a proc you can click makes things easier sure, but why did it need to be a cast in the first place? I'm okay with changes like that. Some with hybridization. That opens the game up a bit more when it comes to your choices, but does make build diversity a bit less. I wish they could diversify our choices without making build diversity worse, but that would require adding more skills to the game which they obviously don't want to do right now.

I'm not sure where I was going with this comment, tbh. But I'm like 50/50 on what Zos has been doing with the hybridization.

Melzo

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

If they're going to do it for anything, they should do it for everything that has an effect while slotted (where in the case of pets the effect is being allowed to keep the pet summoned).

Some more examples include: both sorc pets, Templar's Restoring Aura, Expert Hunter, Magelight, DK's Inferno, and several Necro skills.

No. Pets should only have one slot if they only have one mechanic. Sorcerer pets have two mechanics and should therefore have two slots. Or give my skeleton archer a direct heal or some other extra skill. In the case of the sorcerer, you only nerf the pets. They will become temporary and remove additional skills. No pve player will appreciate this.

The maximum that you will get is two pets of the necromancer skeleton archer type. Do you need it?

Tyrant_Tim

Melzo wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

If they're going to do it for anything, they should do it for everything that has an effect while slotted (where in the case of pets the effect is being allowed to keep the pet summoned).

Some more examples include: both sorc pets, Templar's Restoring Aura, Expert Hunter, Magelight, DK's Inferno, and several Necro skills.

No. Pets should only have one slot if they only have one mechanic. Sorcerer pets have two mechanics and should therefore have two slots. Or give my skeleton archer a direct heal or some other extra skill. In the case of the sorcerer, you only nerf the pets. They will become temporary and remove additional skills. No pve player will appreciate this.

The maximum that you will get is two pets of the necromancer skeleton archer type. Do you need it?

So by that argument, every ability that provides something extra should take another slot per addition?

Like this horrible one?


How many slots would this be? 5?

You’ll be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees that Necromancer as a Summoner feels horrible, but any attention to pets is a good thing, it leads back to your class. You can bet if they buff Sorc pets, they are gonna buff Skeletal Archer and Summon Shade.

WreckfulAbandon

Hell to the no on giving any pets the executive treatment, sorc already has enough of its power budget wasted on these stupid pets that over half of sorcs hate and don't use.

Tyrant_Tim

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Hell to the no on giving any pets the executive treatment, sorc already has enough of its power budget wasted on these stupid pets that over half of sorcs hate and don't use.

Most of the reason Sorcs hate them is due to how inconvenient they are to run and how cosmetically unappealing they are. You literally have a blue monkey and a bird flapping huge wings in your camera disrupting your screen.

Nothing to do with how powerful they are and everything to do with the fact that to run 2 pets, you only have 6 active abilities to slot and Sorcerer abilities aren’t overloaded like other classes, making it a sacrifice that isn’t worth it outside of PvE where the only thing that matters in group content as a damage dealer is damage.

Melzo

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Hell to the no on giving any pets the executive treatment, sorc already has enough of its power budget wasted on these stupid pets that over half of sorcs hate and don't use.

Seriously?? Tell stories about pets elsewhere. Almost every sorcerer plays PvE content through pets. Two years ago, when pets were more effective, there were whole raids of sorcerers in pvp. If you don't like playing through pets, then play without them, but you don't have to speak for every player. Deleting an entire gameplay variant just because you don't like it is ***. A sorcerer can be both a wizard class and an archer, as well as a warrior, as well as a breeder. You don't like pets, but I do. And why is your opinion more important?

WreckfulAbandon

Not sure what you're arguing here @Tyrant_Tim ??

I main sorc, hate pets for a multitude of reasons, and don't want any buffs to stupid pets that could go to other skills. How powerful they are does actually affect the sorc class overall, why do you think we don't have a real burst heal that isn't tied to a pet? Because we have one already that's tied to a pet...

Let's not turn this into a circular firing squad.

WreckfulAbandon

Melzo wrote: »

And why is your opinion more important?

I would tell you but pretty sure I'm on my last warning.

Melzo

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

If they're going to do it for anything, they should do it for everything that has an effect while slotted (where in the case of pets the effect is being allowed to keep the pet summoned).

Some more examples include: both sorc pets, Templar's Restoring Aura, Expert Hunter, Magelight, DK's Inferno, and several Necro skills.

No. Pets should only have one slot if they only have one mechanic. Sorcerer pets have two mechanics and should therefore have two slots. Or give my skeleton archer a direct heal or some other extra skill. In the case of the sorcerer, you only nerf the pets. They will become temporary and remove additional skills. No pve player will appreciate this.

The maximum that you will get is two pets of the necromancer skeleton archer type. Do you need it?

So by that argument, every ability that provides something extra should take another slot per addition?

Like this horrible one?


How many slots would this be? 5?

You’ll be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees that Necromancer as a Summoner feels horrible, but any attention to pets is a good thing, it leads back to your class. You can bet if they buff Sorc pets, they are gonna buff Skeletal Archer and Summon Shade.

Am I wrong? If the sorcerer can place a pet in one slot, he will receive both direct healing and damage. In general, I'm not very opposed to changing pets, but then you need to change all pets. Warden will also like to put a bear on the back panel and also get an additional skill to netch. Such significant changes would require that every pet-related class receive changes. Otherwise, the sorcerer will receive an unjustified advantage. Both in pve and pvp.

Melzo

And I doubt that the developers will go for it. The most you can expect is to add some general buff to the pet. For example, a crit chance buff will be added to your pet. That's all. It's ridiculous to expect more.

Melzo

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Not sure what you're arguing here??

I main sorc, hate pets for a multitude of reasons, and don't want any buffs to stupid pets that could go to other skills. How powerful they are does actually affect the sorc class overall, why do you think we don't have a real burst heal that isn't tied to a pet? Because we have one already that's tied to a pet...

Let's not turn this into a circular firing squad here.

Stupid pets?? It's your choice to play with or without them, but you have an entire skill tree devoted to them. Did you choose the pet-related class yourself, or do you expect the developers to break the second skill tree for you? You have the choice to use one pet or all three. The same can be said about the necromancer. He also has the choice to use the scythe or not. This doesn't change the fact that sorcerer is a pet class. if you don't like pets either don't use them or switch to another class. The class should not adapt to you and many are satisfied with pets and gameplay with them.

The gameplay through the first branch involves the use of shields, the gameplay using the second branch involves the use of healing from pets. You can mix gameplays but don't expect to get a bunch of defensive skills. You take either one or the other, but there is an option to mix and match both the advantages and disadvantages of these two skill lines.

merpins

I'm not a fan of the pet either, but I appreciate the playstyle as an option. Can we all just agree that, rather than nerfing pets, they should buff the rest of the Sorcerer class so it can be used competitively either way? It's a bit off topic.

JerBearESO

Just woke up and realized, warden bear ult needs this change

Lalothen

I think the trio of "meat & potatoes" buffs could receive this treatment really, then ZOS can work further on what certain skills bring to the table besides their major buff to encourage players to use them actively. I'm talking sources of:

Major Resolve
Major Savagery/Prophecy
Major Brutality/Sorcery

Minor buffs can then distributed more generously and attached as class passives that activate on skill usage, like Templar's Spear Wall that provides minor protection for Xs when activating an Aedric Spear ability. This can apply to a bunch of different minors in addition to the staples, including minor heroism, force, etc.

It would also be a gentler avenue into mastering two-bar gameplay for those players who shy away from it. Oakensoul would then be the big set of training wheels, whilst replacing it with some back-barred skills that grant major buffs on both bars, and class/guild/weapon skills that grant minors on activation, would constitute removing those training wheels. There would still be the skill-related progression of learning how to effectively use and switch between both bars in a static rotation, then using a dynamic rotation, and then finally for those players who want (and are actually capable functionally of) it: working on LA weaving.

It would also allow more versatility with one-bar builds no longer being pigeonholed into using Oakensoul for all of the associated buffs. If I could get Major Resolve, Sorcery & Prophecy from back-barred skills and had a way of proccing various other minor buffs from active front-bar skills (and maybe 1-2 bar-back skills as well), then I would definitely consider sourcing Empower elsewhere and dropping Oakensoul for another mythic, full monster set or arena weapon.