Another nail in the coffin for Mag Sorc burst damage

SkaraMinoc

Mag Sorc lost a significant amount of damage over the past 2 years. A 25k combo now does 15k on a good day.

• Molag Kena nerfed
• Simmering Frenzy nerfed
• Lingering Flare now has Major Protection
• Resolving Vigor now has Minor Resolve
• Battle Spirit changed in Update 31 (v7.1.5) and increases the damage taken reduction to 50%, up from 44% (i.e. 10.71% reduced damage in PvP, 6/56=10.71)
• Rallying Cry set added to the game. Crit damage nerfed by ~25%.
• Inferno Staff no longer buffs single target damage by 10%

Class Perspective

• DK now sits in Cinder Storm blocking and laughing at Mag Sorc
• 40k+ health Wardens laugh at Mag Sorc with Polar Wind
• Nightblade combo has done 2x the damage of Mag Sorc combo for a while now
• Impervious Ward makes Arcanist nearly impossible to kill as a Mag Sorc
• Extended Ritual (Cleanse) makes Templar nearly impossible to kill as a Mag Sorc
• Necros are inherently tanky and were always difficult to kill as a Mag Sorc

acastanza_ESO

This is all true. Some people will point to abusive meta builds that crutch on overturned procs (like the vate weapons dot stamsorcs) but that doesn't change the fact that compared to any other class except maybe Necro, the class toolkit is hot garbage from top to bottom.

Turtle_Bot

On top of all of this, sorcs also have also had:

- 3rd bar overload removed (a 33% nerf to the amount of bar space sorc had to make up for pets being double barred).
- Pets being extremely outdated in their combat stats (mitigation, health and damage) and AI.
- Extremely non-synergistic kit with outdated and awkward passives that look like they should've been on other classes.
- The damage formula rework which forced sorcs to build into additional stats for both defense and offense while other classes could easily condense their stat distribution to a far more streamlined level with a much higher ceiling.
- Constant nerfs and mechanical reworks to shields that has all but deleted them as a viable defensive tool.
- Constant nerfs to health regen (sorcs only reliable source of healing over time) which made up for the lack of a burst heal and unreliability of crit surge as a HoT in PvP.
- The availability of cost reduction to core combat (dodge roll/block) which counters all of sorcs offence outside of curse.
- The availability of free movement speed modifiers making sorcerer much less mobile compared to other classes that can just sprint to keep up with a streaking sorc now all the while still throwing their abilities at the fleeing sorc that still has no reliable heal to help it survive this.
- The buffs/debuffs and secondary effects that have been given out like candy to every class except sorc (necro is lacking named buffs, but it has a lot of secondary effects, even if they are mostly minor effects).

JerBearESO

Just a thought, but can't mag sorcs use bow? The stam version dark deal allows bow HA to result in mag sustain eventually.... Kinda theme breaking though....

Lumenn

9.0.7 notes:
Reduced the Critical Chance rating granted from The Thief Mundus Stone to 1212, down from 1333, so it fits properly within power budgets of other stones.


Hopefully this doesn't get nerfed any more/harder. If they're going after crit again it's a hit to some of our healing too.

Tyrant_Tim

Every time your class abilities proc concussed, you’re getting free damage, and all that damage that you believe you’re missing from that 10% is being loaded into Force Pulse which is deleting people on PTS, regardless of Frags, which if we’re going to be honest here, were the only thing being buffed by Inferno besides Overload.

Contrary to your OP, Sorc is doing a LOT better this patch, you should try it out.

SkaraMinoc

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Every time your class abilities proc concussed, you’re getting free damage, and all that damage that you believe you’re missing from that 10% is being loaded into Force Pulse which is deleting people on PTS, regardless of Frags, which if we’re going to be honest here, were the only thing being buffed by Inferno besides Overload.

Contrary to your OP, Sorc is doing a LOT better this patch, you should try it out.

This is the traditional Mag Sorc combo.

1. Force Pulse (Single Target)
2. Haunting Curse (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)
3. Backbar Frost Reach w/ Destructive Touch (Single Target)
4. Endless Fury Debuff (Single Target)
5. Streak (Single Target this is AoE)
6. Crystal Fragments Proc (Single Target)
7. Endless Fury Proc (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)

U39 is a flat 10% damage nerf to all damage listed above except Streak. Force Pulse can't possibly make up the difference.

Tyrant_Tim

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Every time your class abilities proc concussed, you’re getting free damage, and all that damage that you believe you’re missing from that 10% is being loaded into Force Pulse which is deleting people on PTS, regardless of Frags, which if we’re going to be honest here, were the only thing being buffed by Inferno besides Overload.

Contrary to your OP, Sorc is doing a LOT better this patch, you should try it out.

This is the traditional Mag Sorc combo.

1. Force Pulse (Single Target)
2. Haunting Curse (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)
3. Backbar Frost Reach w/ Destructive Touch (Single Target)
4. Endless Fury Debuff (Single Target)
5. Streak (Single Target)
6. Crystal Fragments Proc (Single Target)
7. Endless Fury Proc (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)

U39 is a flat 10% damage nerf to all damage listed above. Force Pulse can't possibly make up the difference.

How Streak and Curse are considered single-target abilities has to be unintended. They sound more like an unaddressed bug in damage types, and should be fixed.

When it comes to actual in-game class PvP performance, you have to play it to believe it. Finally MagSorc plays proc builds like the best of them by throwing on an Asylum Staff weaving Force Pulse.

Normally I play on Xbox, but I’ve been using my girlfriend’s PC to try out the PTS, so when I get an opportunity to use it, I’ll make a traditional Sorc using those abilities front bar and upload a few clips of the gameplay.

PhoenixGrey

Sorc has been bottom tier for a while now

There is only one viable sorc build which includes 3 proc sets of which is also beaten easily by other classes running the same setup

I didn’t read the pts but I am sure NB’s got buffed again.

OBJnoob

I think @JerBearESO has the right idea. Time to drop the staff and use a bow. I like the impending changes to bow, and while I play a stamsorc not a magsorc, there's no real reason why bow can't work on magsorc.

You can roll dodge for major expedition-- which means you don't need RaT anymore, because Dark Deal now gives minor force. And you can switch to Hurricane for minor expedition to be even faster than before. Granted this leaves you without snare removal but there's always streak.

Bow synergizes well with sorc in my opinion not just for the expedition but the crit passives as well. Now, depending on the range, you'll get even more crit.

I think with some minor adjustments they'll be about the same. Which IS a shame because they need a buff. But I don't think this is too huge of a nerf.

SkaraMinoc

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

1. Streak (Single Target)

How Streak and Curse are considered single-target abilities has to be unintended.

Whoops Streak is Area of Effect. I've updated my previous comment.

Haunting Curse has two damage sources, a single target damage and a second AoE damage to everyone else.

SkaraMinoc

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

When it comes to actual in-game class PvP performance, you have to play it to believe it. Finally MagSorc plays proc builds like the best of them by throwing on an Asylum Staff weaving Force Pulse.

This is a major shift away from burst damage towards sustained pressure.

Tyrant_Tim

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

1. Streak (Single Target)

How Streak and Curse are considered single-target abilities has to be unintended.

Whoops Streak is Area of Effect. I've updated my previous comment.

Haunting Curse has two damage sources, a single target damage and a second AoE damage to everyone else.

I figured as much with Streak but wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.

From what I’m gathering, all of the damage is coming from the Vateshran Ice Staff and the Asylum Inferno with Way of the Fire and that new 35% heal reduction monster set.

As a MagSorc that 15% heal debuff is nothing, as the class isn’t strong healing to begin with, Conjured Ward and other Wards in general are extremely strong against that set, while tanky classes get absolutely shredded by pressure builds using it, and that procSorc has insane pressure.

olsborg

My main issue with the tankmeta thats been plaguing pvp for years now, is undeath passive, makes everything hard to kill, not just for magsorc, but magsorc burst is so telegraphed and easy to counter. Everyone in pvp is a vampire, and if you're not, its only because you are a ww.

SkaraMinoc

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Haunting Curse does it’s explosion damage in an AoE around the target, right? So shouldn’t it be considered AoE Direct Damage?

It's considered single target damage to the player that has the Haunting Curse debuff.

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?abilityid=30523

Curse an enemy with a destructive rune, dealing <<1>> to the target and <<2>> to all other nearby enemies after <<3>>.

<<1>> = 0.12913 MaxStat + 1.35581 MaxPower (Ultimate, ratio = 10.50, Dmg, Magic, SingleTarget, Direct, Melee, R2 = 1)
<<2>> = 0.0594 MaxStat + 0.62367 MaxPower (Ultimate, ratio = 10.50, Dmg, Magic, AOE, Direct, Melee, R2 = 1)
<<3>> = 3.5 seconds (Constant)

Tyrant_Tim

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Haunting Curse does it’s explosion damage in an AoE around the target, right? So shouldn’t it be considered AoE Direct Damage?

It's considered single target damage to the player that has the Haunting Curse debuff.

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?abilityid=30523

Curse an enemy with a destructive rune, dealing <<1>> to the target and <<2>> to all other nearby enemies after <<3>>.

<<1>> = 0.12913 MaxStat + 1.35581 MaxPower (Ultimate, ratio = 10.50, Dmg, Magic, SingleTarget, Direct, Melee, R2 = 1)
<<2>> = 0.0594 MaxStat + 0.62367 MaxPower (Ultimate, ratio = 10.50, Dmg, Magic, AOE, Direct, Melee, R2 = 1)
<<3>> = 3.5 seconds (Constant)

I looked up the tooltip and revised my post about the damage type, I was surprised to see they had changed the way Curse worked, I haven’t looked at the actual ability in years…

and here I was assuming that my Major Evasion helped mitigate it.

katorga

Every class using staves lost 10%, punishing any burst build which benefited from a flat percentage increase because they have a few instances of Big Damage.

Magsorc's "combo" is out dated. It takes too many GCD to apply, and does too little damage compared to other classes. Pets are essentially useless in pvp. Damage shields are outclassed by block casting an instant heal, unless like Arcanist, the shield is ALSO a burst heal. Anything I can do on my sorc, my nightblade does better by a factor of 1.5 - same build, same sets.

And that said, I think my sorc is going to be one of my better classes next patch. It won't be anywhere close to DK, that class is way overtuned compared to all of the others.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

same setup

I didn’t read the pts but I am sure NB’s got buffed again.

Yes they did, a free skill slot.

olsborg wrote: »

My main issue with the tankmeta thats been plaguing pvp for years now, is undeath passive, makes everything hard to kill...

Without undeath magsorc itself is not viable.

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Every time your class abilities proc concussed, you’re getting free damage, and all that damage that you believe you’re missing from that 10% is being loaded into Force Pulse which is deleting people on PTS, regardless of Frags, which if we’re going to be honest here, were the only thing being buffed by Inferno besides Overload.

Contrary to your OP, Sorc is doing a LOT better this patch, you should try it out.

Bingo. It works on Live too.

SkaraMinoc

katorga wrote: »

Magsorc's "combo" is out dated. It takes too many GCD to apply, and does too little damage compared to other classes.

It stings

Tyrant_Tim

Yeah, MagSorc’s doing real bad right now. /s

https://youtu.be/j5BQ2L9xTyk
https://youtu.be/2dUThJaQ4nA
https://youtu.be/i5WXAWA4X4E

StaticWave

Meanwhile, NB gets Major Savagery on Cloak for "PvE purposes".

SkaraMinoc

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Yeah, MagSorc’s doing real bad right now. /s
snip

Your Curse did 3022 damage and your Crystal Fragments proc only did 4055 damage.



Your Crushing Shock did 5285 damage w/ status effects which is no better than Dizzying Swing or Power Slam, non-crit.



Haunting Curse did 3278 damage and Mages' Wrath only did 3158 damage.



These clips are a good example of how bad single target damage will be next patch. RIP Mag Sorc.

SkaraMinoc

Also the highest total damage in any GCD of your clips was around 10k but this was an outlier. The shift away from burst damage towards what is supposed to be sustained pressure won't be killing anyone who can block heal.

katorga

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Also the highest total damage in any GCD of your clips was around 10k but this was an outlier. The shift away from burst damage towards what is supposed to be sustained pressure won't be killing anyone who can block heal.

Your playing the wrong class. It works on sorc. But it will really, shine on NB with Merciless or on a Warden. And those classes can block heal so best of both worlds.

Magsorc does not have good burst on Live, tbh.

Tyrant_Tim

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Your Curse did 3022 damage and your Crystal Fragments proc only did 4055 damage.

Your Crushing Shock did 5285 damage w/ status effects which is no better than Dizzying Swing or Power Slam, non-crit.

Haunting Curse did 3278 damage and Mages' Wrath only did 3158 damage.

These clips are a good example of how bad single target damage will be next patch. RIP Mag Sorc.

That build had 4k spell damage, of course its numbers weren’t going to hit crazy, MagSorc is a pressure class now, here is the gear I tested in.
https://youtu.be/u36oVtaPB9o
Curse and Frag essentially work like hiccups in the pressure, you’re not going to outright blow people up with them, you need your pets, or Crushing Shock now, to say the class is in a bad spot right now due to the Inferno Staff changes is wrong; if you want to talk Sorc problems, bring up the huge list of major and minor buffs that aren’t available on their kit.

Also, as you can see in the clip, I’m running that new 35% heal debuff set on that build so you’re killing anybody in the game with that build if they don’t kill you first, you can see it on both the Stam Sorc and me in the 3 clips by the purple magic coming off of us.

PhoenixGrey

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Your Curse did 3022 damage and your Crystal Fragments proc only did 4055 damage.

Your Crushing Shock did 5285 damage w/ status effects which is no better than Dizzying Swing or Power Slam, non-crit.

Haunting Curse did 3278 damage and Mages' Wrath only did 3158 damage.

These clips are a good example of how bad single target damage will be next patch. RIP Mag Sorc.

That build had 4k spell damage, of course its numbers weren’t going to hit crazy, MagSorc is a pressure class now, here is the gear I tested in.
https://youtu.be/u36oVtaPB9o
Curse and Frag essentially work like hiccups in the pressure, you’re not going to outright blow people up with them, you need your pets, or Crushing Shock now, to say the class is in a bad spot right now due to the Inferno Staff changes is wrong; if you want to talk Sorc problems, bring up the huge list of major and minor buffs that aren’t available on their kit.

Also, as you can see in the clip, I’m running that new 35% heal debuff set on that build so you’re killing anybody in the game with that build if they don’t kill you first, you can see it on both the Stam Sorc and me in the 3 clips by the purple magic coming off of us.

The problem with mag sorc is simple as 2 fixes

1. A big buff to hardened ward and the light armor ward. Add major and minor protection while wards are active

2. Buff curse and reduce cost of streak

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Every time your class abilities proc concussed, you’re getting free damage, and all that damage that you believe you’re missing from that 10% is being loaded into Force Pulse which is deleting people on PTS, regardless of Frags, which if we’re going to be honest here, were the only thing being buffed by Inferno besides Overload.

Contrary to your OP, Sorc is doing a LOT better this patch, you should try it out.

This is the traditional Mag Sorc combo.

1. Force Pulse (Single Target)
2. Haunting Curse (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)
3. Backbar Frost Reach w/ Destructive Touch (Single Target)
4. Endless Fury Debuff (Single Target)
5. Streak (Single Target)
6. Crystal Fragments Proc (Single Target)
7. Endless Fury Proc (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)

U39 is a flat 10% damage nerf to all damage listed above. Force Pulse can't possibly make up the difference.

How Streak and Curse are considered single-target abilities has to be unintended. They sound more like an unaddressed bug in damage types, and should be fixed.

When it comes to actual in-game class PvP performance, you have to play it to believe it. Finally MagSorc plays proc builds like the best of them by throwing on an Asylum Staff weaving Force Pulse.

Normally I play on Xbox, but I’ve been using my girlfriend’s PC to try out the PTS, so when I get an opportunity to use it, I’ll make a traditional Sorc using those abilities front bar and upload a few clips of the gameplay.

The asylum staff is bugged though so i wouldn't bank too much on it staying as is

Weckless

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Your Curse did 3022 damage and your Crystal Fragments proc only did 4055 damage.

Your Crushing Shock did 5285 damage w/ status effects which is no better than Dizzying Swing or Power Slam, non-crit.

Haunting Curse did 3278 damage and Mages' Wrath only did 3158 damage.

These clips are a good example of how bad single target damage will be next patch. RIP Mag Sorc.

That build had 4k spell damage, of course its numbers weren’t going to hit crazy, MagSorc is a pressure class now, here is the gear I tested in.
https://youtu.be/u36oVtaPB9o
Curse and Frag essentially work like hiccups in the pressure, you’re not going to outright blow people up with them, you need your pets, or Crushing Shock now, to say the class is in a bad spot right now due to the Inferno Staff changes is wrong; if you want to talk Sorc problems, bring up the huge list of major and minor buffs that aren’t available on their kit.

Also, as you can see in the clip, I’m running that new 35% heal debuff set on that build so you’re killing anybody in the game with that build if they don’t kill you first, you can see it on both the Stam Sorc and me in the 3 clips by the purple magic coming off of us.

The problem with mag sorc is simple as 2 fixes

1. A big buff to hardened ward and the light armor ward. Add major and minor protection while wards are active

2. Buff curse and reduce cost of streak

Lol so you want 15% mitigation and then to buff hardened ward after they just buffed it and dampen magicka? See that just proves all that nightblade hate was biased and most of it misinformation. Nightblade def could use toning down along with dk if they aren't going to buff other classes. But you don't want balance you just want your class to be better than the others while you criticize and complain how it isn't fair for other classes to be strong. A true grifter

Tyrant_Tim

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Every time your class abilities proc concussed, you’re getting free damage, and all that damage that you believe you’re missing from that 10% is being loaded into Force Pulse which is deleting people on PTS, regardless of Frags, which if we’re going to be honest here, were the only thing being buffed by Inferno besides Overload.

Contrary to your OP, Sorc is doing a LOT better this patch, you should try it out.

This is the traditional Mag Sorc combo.

1. Force Pulse (Single Target)
2. Haunting Curse (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)
3. Backbar Frost Reach w/ Destructive Touch (Single Target)
4. Endless Fury Debuff (Single Target)
5. Streak (Single Target)
6. Crystal Fragments Proc (Single Target)
7. Endless Fury Proc (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)

U39 is a flat 10% damage nerf to all damage listed above. Force Pulse can't possibly make up the difference.

How Streak and Curse are considered single-target abilities has to be unintended. They sound more like an unaddressed bug in damage types, and should be fixed.

When it comes to actual in-game class PvP performance, you have to play it to believe it. Finally MagSorc plays proc builds like the best of them by throwing on an Asylum Staff weaving Force Pulse.

Normally I play on Xbox, but I’ve been using my girlfriend’s PC to try out the PTS, so when I get an opportunity to use it, I’ll make a traditional Sorc using those abilities front bar and upload a few clips of the gameplay.

The asylum staff is bugged though so i wouldn't bank too much on it staying as is

How so? What’s it doing any different than it’s supposed to, currently?

xDeusEJRx

Might as well make MagSorc a support bot class and give it defensive utility for groups since defense and buff management is the only direction we're going in this game.

Damage be damned

Weckless

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Every time your class abilities proc concussed, you’re getting free damage, and all that damage that you believe you’re missing from that 10% is being loaded into Force Pulse which is deleting people on PTS, regardless of Frags, which if we’re going to be honest here, were the only thing being buffed by Inferno besides Overload.

Contrary to your OP, Sorc is doing a LOT better this patch, you should try it out.

This is the traditional Mag Sorc combo.

1. Force Pulse (Single Target)
2. Haunting Curse (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)
3. Backbar Frost Reach w/ Destructive Touch (Single Target)
4. Endless Fury Debuff (Single Target)
5. Streak (Single Target)
6. Crystal Fragments Proc (Single Target)
7. Endless Fury Proc (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)

U39 is a flat 10% damage nerf to all damage listed above. Force Pulse can't possibly make up the difference.

How Streak and Curse are considered single-target abilities has to be unintended. They sound more like an unaddressed bug in damage types, and should be fixed.

When it comes to actual in-game class PvP performance, you have to play it to believe it. Finally MagSorc plays proc builds like the best of them by throwing on an Asylum Staff weaving Force Pulse.

Normally I play on Xbox, but I’ve been using my girlfriend’s PC to try out the PTS, so when I get an opportunity to use it, I’ll make a traditional Sorc using those abilities front bar and upload a few clips of the gameplay.

The asylum staff is bugged though so i wouldn't bank too much on it staying as is

How so? What’s it doing any different than it’s supposed to, currently?

The status effects from the staff are seperate from the normal ones so you can doubld proc them and have 2 of a kind on them at the same time and they also both get buffed by draugr and inferno paasives so every 2nd cast you can potentially proc 6 status effects in one cast. 7 if you add a glyph but double dots are best with draugrkin so basically 11 instances of damage from one cast

All 11 buffed by draugrkin and 6 by inferbo passive possibly12 and 7 if poisoned

So (12 × 300) + (7 × 500) =
3600 + 3500 = 7100 bonus damage on top of all the regular damage

Tyrant_Tim

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Tyrant_Tim wrote: »

Every time your class abilities proc concussed, you’re getting free damage, and all that damage that you believe you’re missing from that 10% is being loaded into Force Pulse which is deleting people on PTS, regardless of Frags, which if we’re going to be honest here, were the only thing being buffed by Inferno besides Overload.

Contrary to your OP, Sorc is doing a LOT better this patch, you should try it out.

This is the traditional Mag Sorc combo.

1. Force Pulse (Single Target)
2. Haunting Curse (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)
3. Backbar Frost Reach w/ Destructive Touch (Single Target)
4. Endless Fury Debuff (Single Target)
5. Streak (Single Target)
6. Crystal Fragments Proc (Single Target)
7. Endless Fury Proc (yes, this is Single Target - see coefficient)

U39 is a flat 10% damage nerf to all damage listed above. Force Pulse can't possibly make up the difference.

How Streak and Curse are considered single-target abilities has to be unintended. They sound more like an unaddressed bug in damage types, and should be fixed.

When it comes to actual in-game class PvP performance, you have to play it to believe it. Finally MagSorc plays proc builds like the best of them by throwing on an Asylum Staff weaving Force Pulse.

Normally I play on Xbox, but I’ve been using my girlfriend’s PC to try out the PTS, so when I get an opportunity to use it, I’ll make a traditional Sorc using those abilities front bar and upload a few clips of the gameplay.

The asylum staff is bugged though so i wouldn't bank too much on it staying as is

How so? What’s it doing any different than it’s supposed to, currently?

The status effects from the staff are seperate from the normal ones so you can doubld proc them and have 2 of a kind on them at the same time and they also both get buffed by draugr and inferno paasives so every 2nd cast you can potentially proc 6 status effects in one cast. 7 if you add a glyph but double dots are best with draugrkin so basically 11 instances of damage from one cast

All 11 buffed by draugrkin and 6 by inferbo passive possibly12 and 7 if poisoned

So (12 × 300) + (7 × 500) =
3600 + 3500 = 7100 bonus damage on top of all the regular damage

Thanks for the clarification. What reason do you have to believe this interaction is unintended?

Why do you believe it will be nerfed?